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| | From:  tall-mary (Original Message) | Sent: 7/22/2006 4:33 AM |
(Acts 2:37). Peter's response was that they should "Repent and be baptized . . . for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" Can a person be saved without being baptized? |
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Message 4 of 20 in Discussion <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> But paul makes a very plain deceration in 1corth 15:1-4<o:p></o:p> "Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you-unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,"<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Commentary: <o:p> </o:p> Since it is clear that disciples are those who follow a discipline (study). <o:p> </o:p> The discipline under discussion is salvation. <o:p> </o:p> Salvation is not limited to Christians. <o:p> </o:p> If, one chooses to follow Jesus of Nazareth and seek to be saved from their sins in the manner of His teaching, then we can easily deduce from paragraph five in missive four in this discussion that Jesus “Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures.�?/P> <o:p> </o:p> And since the rite of Baptism is founded in this basic principle, we also should practice this first principle of Christianity if we desire to advance the Gospel that Jesus of Nazareth taught to His followers (disciples) and take this first step and be baptized for remission of sins past (death to the old life) and be brought up out of the depths of the water (New Life in Christ), and thus live no more to self, but “to live is Christ�?as the Apostle Paul lived. |
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| | | From: yo-nc | Sent: 9/11/2007 12:36 AM |
or in other words from desi56111 sent 9/7/2007 5:19pm message 4 of 20 in Discussion (slightly edited version) But Paul makes a very plain declaration in his first letter to the Corinthians chapter fifteeen verses one to four: "Moreover, brethern, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you - unless y ou believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures," Commentary (composed on this the tenth day of the month of September in the year two thousand and seven) Since it is clear that disciples ar those who follow a discipline (study), and The discipline under discussion is salvation. Although: Salvation is not limited to professing Christians (personal observation allowing for God to be the Judge of whether a human will be living with those who will do the will of God and thus abide for ever). If, one chooses to follow Jesus of Nazareth and seek to be saved from his sins in the manner of His teaching, then we can easily deduce from paragraph five in missive four in this discussion that Jesus "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures," And since the rite of Baptism is founded in this basic principle, we also should practice this first principle of Christianity if we desire to advance in the Gospel that Jesus of Nazareth taught to His followers (disciples) and take this first step and be baptized for (the) remission of sins past (death to the old life { of living for self alone [pleasure, personal advancement in this wicked and adulterous system]}) and be brought up out of the depths of the water ([into] New Life in Christ), and thus live no more to self, but "to live is Christ" as the Apostle Paul lived. |
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| | | From: yo-nc | Sent: 9/11/2007 12:40 AM |
... and in a slightly modified version... or in other words from desi56111 sent 9/7/2007 5:19pm message 4 of 20 in Discussion (slightly edited version) But Paul makes a very plain declaration in his first letter to the Corinthians chapter fifteeen verses one to four: "Moreover, brethern, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you - unless y ou believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures," Commentary (composed on this the tenth day of the month of September in the year two thousand and seven) Since it is clear that disciples ar those who follow a discipline (study), and The discipline under discussion is salvation. Although: Salvation is not limited to professing Christians (personal observation allowing for God to be the Judge of whether a human will be living with those who will do the will of God and thus abide for ever). If, one chooses to follow Jesus of Nazareth and seek to be saved from his sins in the manner of His teaching, then we can easily deduce from paragraph five in missive four in this discussion that Jesus "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures," And since the rite of Baptism is founded in this basic principle, we also should practice this first principle of Christianity if we desire to advance in the Gospel that Jesus of Nazareth taught to His followers(disciples) and take this first step and be baptized for (the) remission of sins past (death to the old life { of living for self alone [pleasure, personal advancement in this wicked and adulterous system]}) and be brought up out of the depths of the water ([into] New Life in Christ), and thus live no more to self, but "to live is Christ" as the Apostle Paul lived. (third times a charm? who knows! ~6:40pm 10sept2007 Monday CST USA) yos |
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I never thought of baptism as "Gospel perversion" but hey, its your journey. well is or is not "water baptism" part of the gospel? or is or is not "water baptism" part of what happened to the believers after they have been saved? I mean if you *(or anyone) says "water baptism is part of the gospel" and Paul says "i was not sent to baptize but to preach the gospel" spererating baptism from the gospel and also says "what the gospel is" and water baptism is not in there, how are we then to say "its not a gospel perversion to add water baptism, to what the gospel is defined as?" Paul made the point of in gal that "The gospel" is serious enough to say "if anyone preaches 'a gospel' other than the ONE we preached, then let them be eternaly condemened." (gal 1:8-9) thats serious language, not something to say "well thats your gospel, not what we teach as 'the gospel'." if the gospel was defined in the bible as "you must eat green eggs and ham on the sabbath day to be saved" and went around saying "as long as you eat a healthy breakfast for eternal life" as "the gospel" thats a perversion of 'what the gospel is.' Obvious its a silly example, but the point is the issue being "water baptism" being apart from salvation, and those who place an emphasis on the events of after the conversion, the focus is not not "what bring conversion" to begin with. a cart before the horse thing. Make sure teh hourse is in front of the cart, and the "cart" will follow respectfully. |
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by the way what happened to the layout? |
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HI Desi I think you may be taking that text of Paul’s a bit too far, and getting a bit carried away, calling people “of another Gospel�? because they think baptism is of such high priority to the point of almost sounding like part of the Gospel I think most, if not all here, agree we are saved by the Power of the Blood of Jesus alone, Believing He was God who came in the flesh and rose the Third day. But to isolate that one text of Paul’s, and build a whole doctrine on it is perhaps not the best way to use scripture, when there are other scriptures that speak on the topic as well. All through Acts Paul baptised that same night or that same hour ( so he did baptise) and I agree with you ,that it was after accepting Jesus, yet within hours. But you know, Peter kinda worded it to sound more like it may have been part of the Gospel. You remember in Acts 2 where Peter preached Jesus and the Jews were pierced to their hearts and asked “Brethren what shall we do�?? Acts 2 Vs 37 Acts 2: 38 �?And Peter said to them Repent, and let each of you be baptised in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.�?This was all one sentence and included “for the forgiveness of sins�? So if some read that to think it is part of the gospel, perhaps show them a little grace and realise they have some scripture to hang on as well. Anyway I don’t think anyone deserves the charge of “Being of another Gospel�?over this point . God bless you Desi Love-n-Grace |
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| | | From: yo-nc | Sent: 9/11/2007 8:41 PM |
May we all be magnanimous and gracious with each other is my prayer! Peace (-__-) |
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I think you may be taking that text of Paul’s a bit too far, and getting a bit carried away, calling people “of another Gospel�? because they think baptism is of such high priority to the point of almost sounding like part of the Gospel Now hang on a sec, Love. Thats a misrepesenting of what i said. I said: "I mean if you *(or anyone) says "water baptism is part of the gospel" and Paul says "i was not sent to baptize but to preach the gospel" spererating baptism from the gospel and also says "what the gospel is" and water baptism is not in there, how are we then to say "its not a gospel perversion to add water baptism, to what the gospel is defined as?" Now IF *(and thats a BIG 2-lettered word) one adds water baptism to the gospel defined that is perverting the gospel as the gospel is defined BY the bible, not the "gospel accordening to me." But IF one holds a "such high priority to the point of almost sounding like part of the Gospel" One DOES NOT "add" to the gospel that way, but rather "holds a high priority" to the baptism, but as you said "ALMOST SOUNDING LIKE part of the gospel" "almost sounding like" and "Acutally adding" are two differant things, and i would hope we could understand the differance of them. Just because one places a hight prioity on something, does not mean they are actually 'adding' to the gospel. and that is seemely what this thread has become. I dont know if you hold that "baptism" is part of the gospel, but from what i have read you do not, but as stated above consider it in high regards, but do not add baptism to the gospel. Is it just me, or have i accused you to have "another gospel" but i dont think i have. My point in bringing up the "another gospel" which the bible condems, is that there are many people that DO add water baptism to the gospel, when it is NOT apart of what the bible defines it as. Thats serious business. But to keep the baptism "seperate" from the gospel, *(BUT a regular occurance) after one IS saved, has been, and IS customary, but the denstintion of seperation has to be meet. Acts 2:38 "For" *(eis) means 'because', not "to lead to" as many read. a common example is "Jessie James wanted FOR a robbery" Can be read "Jesse James wanted *(because of) a robbery." OR "Jessie James wanted *(To aquire, gain) a robbery." BUT the greek is more specific than the english, and the term is "because." Again if "baptism was part of the gospel" Paul makes a BUNCH of points that it is not. And just bacause baptism happened REGULARLY after one has been converted, still does not make it "part of the gospel." Neither does "paul even baptised people" does not mean 'baptism is part of the gospel" it means 'paul baptised people.' I dont have a 'problem' with baptism, I have a problem when baptism is added to "being part of the gospel" and it is not , but seperate from the gospel. And if we're out preaching/ teaching someone, and thay ack "what must I do to be saved" are you going to say "you have the believe the gospel, repent of ALL your sins, keep the sabbath day *(so you dont get the 'mark of the beast'), and you have to be baptized, and keep the commandments of God" OR are you goung to say "the bible says ' the power of teh gospel is by which we are saved, and that gospel is defined BY THE BIBLE as the death, burial, and resserection of Jesus the Christ." and the seriousness of that is made known by paul to the point of saying "if anyone preaches ANY OTHER GOSPEL let them be condemened." thats serious. Again baptism is fine, no problem, but when its ADDED *(not just emphasied) but ADDED to being "part of the gospel" thats a perverted gospel, and the bible has very serious language about that. |
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Whatever Desi! I think you are making a mountian out of nothing. If we are mature Christians we should be talking about our last encounter with Jesus or like Toms testimony of the Power of God working through us Jesus said "You search the scripture thinking in them you have eternal life , BUT they speak of Me" You are all worked about debating the elemental things of God, and dont even believe the gifts of the Spirit operate today. You have much to learn about the things of God. As do I !!! God Bless you Desi Love-n-Grace |
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You are all worked about debating the elemental things of God, and dont even believe the gifts of the Spirit operate today. well no offence the relevance in what we were talking about.... I dont understand why you would you bring up the " and dont even believe the gifts of the Spirit operate today." comment. I looked at the times of your posting of this thread, and a recient lession the Spirit gave you in the other thread, I hope there is a connection. But that is an in error statement, and a slight misrepesentation. I do believe the Gifts of the Spirit are in operation today, i do not believe that ALL are in opperation due to limitations placed by the scriptures, such as Apostelship. "Church planter" fine, but "Apostle", no. but the "elemental things" of God. I would call also call "the Gospel" elemental, but if the gospel is defined as something that it is not, that should be at least "accurate", and not debateable. |
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Hi Desi Thanks for the response. I am delighted to know we are not debating the Gospel As for the “Gift’s of the Spirit �?comment, well no misrepresentation implied or meant. You do post fairly often but seem to shy away from that thread. (about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit), I saw where you commented about the old fear of counterfeit thing. I don’t know why you thought my lesson about the Holy Spirit was “recent�? It happened several years ago . It doesn’t really matter tho. I would love for you to share some testimonies of how the Holy Spirit is manifesting His Gifts in your walk of life. I can accept that we don’t agree on apostleship so tell me about the rest of the gifts You can do it over in the proper thread tho Blessings Love-n-Grace |
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Hi - Interesting how this topic of water baptism is similar to the idea of being saved by works. It is the same, just a specific example of it. Water baptism is "works". So is prayer. So is fellowship. All these can be categorized under the (unjustly villified) title of "works."
Works are not what save us, but they are very important to who we are as Christians and how we respond to salvation. They are a witness to our salvation - the same is true for water baptism.
In Christ, Bill |
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agreed billy Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God Not of works, lest any man should boast. but thats salvation, but always dont forget vs. 10) "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." that the "Walk." And Love, in referenced "reciecnt " instead of "several years ago" the info I had was the 'date, and time' of you post in in the general lists. If your "lession" was several years ago, i missed it. sorry. |
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no problem about the" recent" thing Desi... was just curious Thanks Bill, I agreeThe fruit of the Spirit comes from being the right tree.(Born of Him) not trying to bear fruit to look like the right tree. Faith and works Blessings Love-n-Grace |
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