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Bible Discussion : What is the Sunday Law?
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(1 recommendation so far) Message 1 of 11 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameBillyMo99  (Original Message)Sent: 6/29/2007 7:47 PM
In a different discussion a question arose as to what the "Sunday Law" was.
 
The following is an excerpt from Ellen White's book, The Great Controversy.  The "I saw" was Ellen White being shown the Great Contoversy vision in 1858 in Lovett's Grove, Ohio.
I saw the saints leaving the cities and villages, and associating in companies together, and living in the most solitary places.  Angels provided them food and water; but the wicked were suffering with hunger and thirst.  Then I saw the leading men of earth consulting together, and Satan and his angels were busy around them.  I saw a writing, and copies of it scattered in different parts of the land, giving orders, that unless the saints should yield their peculiar faith, give up the Sabbath, and observe the first day, they were at liberty, after such a time, to put them to death.
Ultimately, the idea is that a time will come when world leaders will declare that everyone must worship on Sunday or be put to death.  This mandatory Sunday worship is considered the "mark of the beast" referenced in Revelation.


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 Message 2 of 11 in Discussion 
From: SeekingTruth4Sent: 6/30/2007 2:08 AM

(kjv) Revelation 13:1 - And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

(kjv) Revelation 13:7 - And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

(kjv) Revelation 13:11 - And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

(kjv) Revelation 13:15 - And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

(kjv) Revelation 13:16-17 - And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

God bless everyone,
Seek.

Reply
 Message 3 of 11 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamedesi56111Sent: 6/30/2007 7:51 PM
lol. well ok. thanks for answering the question.
 
With the rise of islam, i would suggest that the say of worship that is 'mandated' to the rest of the worldm, would be 'friday,' not sunday. but ok. as much of the 'seperation of church and state" that is tring t be promoted, i find it HARD to believe that any 'worship' could be mandated by any state, woith the exepting of the mentioned above. and THAT group DOES has a policy of 'convert or die.' They took 2 continents with that policy, you know.

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 Message 4 of 11 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamedesi56111Sent: 6/30/2007 8:09 PM
by the way, isn't the "mark" a means of 'buying and selling'? what does 'date dependant mandated religion worship' have to do with 'goods purchached/ sold?'    thats just a 'reaching suggestion,' i guess.

Reply
 Message 5 of 11 in Discussion 
From: SeekingTruth4Sent: 7/1/2007 1:07 PM
Hi Desi,
I will place here what you posted so to make it easier for others to follow.
" by the way, isn't the "mark" a means of 'buying and selling'? what does 'date dependant mandated religion worship' have to do with 'goods purchached/ sold?'    thats just a 'reaching suggestion,' i guess. "
 
" by the way, isn't the "mark" a means of 'buying and selling'? "
One of the outcomes of receiving the "mark of the beast" is that under the world oppression of the beast power, you will be able to buy and sell.
 
what does 'date dependant mandated religion worship' have to do with 'goods purchached/ sold?'
If we look at these verses we see that receiving the mark is due to another reason, and is in opposition to Gods will.
 
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. - (niv) Revelation 14:9-10
 
So those worshipping the beast power will receive a mark on the forhead or on the hand.
 
what does 'date dependant mandated religion worship' "
This is a very interesting expression you used, i have no idea what it means or what your trying to imply.
 
" thats just a 'reaching suggestion,' i guess. "
It may look that way to the person who hasnt studied the subject, you honestly do say your guessing, so lets take a brief look at what Gods Word says about it.
 
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand,....  - (niv) Revelation 14:9
 
We see that the mark will be on the forehead or on the hand, lets see if Gods Word has anything else similar to this.

(niv) Deuteronomy 6:1 - These are the commands, decrees and laws the LORD your God directed me to teach you to observe ....

(niv) Deuteronomy 6:6 - These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts.

(niv) Deuteronomy 6:8 - Tie them as symbols <marks> on your hands and bind them on your foreheads.

The forehead is the seat of thinking, what you give mental agreement to, the hand is the symbol of co-operation, you may not agree but are giving support.
 
Lets look at Revelation again.

(niv) Revelation 14:9 - A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand,

(niv) Revelation 14:10 - he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

(niv) Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

So we can see clearly that worship is involved here, worship is a religions act, not a secular/civil act, we also see that God will serverely punish anyone who receives that mark, the symbol of the beasts authority.
 
Lets now look at the next verse, and see what Gods people are doing to avoid receiving the mark of the beast.
 
(niv) Revelation 14:12 - This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.
 
As we can see from Deuteronomy, Gods mark in the forehead and on the hand is His Law, His commandments, and Gods people will be obeying Gods commandments which excludes them from getting the "mark of the beast".
 
The 4th commandment is about the Sabbath, which God in His authority instituted at creation week. Notice the commandment tells us,  who is God, the LORD <Yahweh> and that the LORD is the Creator of the world. This gives us the 3 main points of a seal, the name - Yahweh, the office - Creator, and dominion - all creation. 
 
Also the Sabbath is an outward expression, you are set apart from the world by doing it, people will see you doing it, and its an expression of submission to Gods authority.
 
(niv) Exodus 20:8 - "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
 
(niv) Exodus 20:11 - For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
 
The beast power in this case is the RCC, and the RCC has openly said their "mark of authority" is that the church changed the Sabbath from Saturday, Gods instituted 7th day, to Sunday. So the "mark of the beast" involves worshipping the beast, not God, and it envolves the enforcement of Sunday worship as opposed to the 7th day Sabbath. Is there a mark of the beast now?, no because working the Sabbath and worshipping on Sunday is currently not enforced.
 
I hope this is of some help,
God bless you Desi,
Seek.

Reply
 Message 6 of 11 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamedesi56111Sent: 7/1/2007 9:08 PM

Well with consideration that the RCC did not start Christianity, but rather Christ did, and the Apostles gave its teachings accordingly in their letters to the churches, I would not put a ‘whole lot of stock�?in what tradition teaches. The RCC has a lot of traditions, and are “OFF�?in many areas but honestly everyone (even the SDA) is “off�?in certain areas also. Some teachings are just more serious than others, granted. But “traditionally�?the RCC has been the ‘whipping boy�?ever since the reformation, and for certain things I would agree, but they are not the source for “everything that’s wrong in the churches today.�?That’s where individual churches have the responsibility to read the bible for themselves for the doctrines of the Christian faith. So, no offence, when the RCC gets “blamed�?for changing the “Sabbath to Sunday�?I just roll my eyes and say ‘give me a break.�?As if, the ‘Pope�?has the authority to do such things. To make any “any claim�?is one thing, but to have the authority to do it is another.

 In other threads, Hero made about the same suggestion, and I just refer to the earliest references we have of the “C”hurch which was the book of Acts, and the NT writings and those writings say that believers meet and gathered, broke bread, listened to the Apostle’s teachings, and took collections on the 1st day of the week. (And daily at the very beginning, of acts 2) Not on the Sabbath. Also there is not a reference in the NT writings of ‘Sabbath day�?observance of the believers (true “C”hurch) as the ‘time for worship.�?But Sabbath day observance, was kept by the unbelievers and it was a good time for Paul to “go to work�?for evangelism work.

And the apostles even write “some regard a day more than others do, and both of those who regard, and do NOT regard �?I>a day�?are both God’s, and we shouldn’t bicker over such things. And to “not let other judge you for [or for not] the observance of a Sabbath day for “it�?(the Sabbath day) is a shadow or picture that was to point us to Christ, who is the fulfillment, not the continuing observance. *(context) These are documents “well before Constantine�?of the 300’s A.D.

what does 'date dependant mandated religion worship' have to do with 'goods purchached/ sold?'  If we look at these verses we see that receiving the mark is due to another reason, and is in opposition to Gods will.

what does 'date dependant mandated religion worship' " This is a very interesting expression you used, i have no idea what it means or what your trying to imply

I question why you asked ‘what this means�? when you responded to it before. Odd. I would suggest that the suggestion ‘date dependant mandated worship�?[that Sunday has to be the day to ‘worship�?or you cant buy/sell goods.] Really this was an afterthought I had, but the more plausible explanation was from the post before in #3 in regards to the rise of Islam. They DO have a policy of convert or die, and their ‘day of worship�?is Friday, not Sunday. So I can see it being ‘mandated�?to the point of the regulation of entire countries. And even today it is a mandated religion, in certain countries.

I just question the suggestion of the RCC being the “beast�?(commonly portrayed) when literal Babylon still exists, and has not YET become like Sodom and Gomorrah as foretold in Ish. 13:19. “Mystery Babylon most likely is a ‘religious system�?but to automatically label it the RCC is premature. To be suspect, sure,- absolutely. But to be dogmatic, be cautious. There are SERIOUS implications with those who “claim to be apostles/ prophets�?(2corth 11,) and any labeling/ claims should be done with the extreme caution, and suggestion and opinions should be considered as such. Remember Babylon Has not ‘fallen,�?but has been taken over many times, and has been under different names depending on era. Just like Rome, Rome was never ‘conquered�?but collapsed within, *(Daniel’s interpreting of the statue with iron legs/ feet, and mixed toes.) They may be the empire to come, but I would not suggest that Christianity (even RCC) would/could ever be ‘mandated�?*(even the mandating of Sunday worship) but I know of a religious system that DOES MANDATE what its people do and DO NOT do, or they are killed. And that’s not in the future, that’s yesterday, and today.


Reply
 Message 7 of 11 in Discussion 
From: SeekingTruth4Sent: 7/2/2007 7:36 AM
Hiya Desi ,
 
Have you ever heard of the "Blue Laws" that are still on the books in the USA?
 
God bless you,
Seek.

Reply
 Message 8 of 11 in Discussion 
From: SeekingTruth4Sent: 7/2/2007 4:34 PM
Hiya Desi,
I would like to share with you some extracts from a document on Blue Laws.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law

A blue law, in the United States and Canada, is a type of law designed to enforce moral standards, particularly the observance of Sunday as a day of worship or rest. Most have been repealed or are simply unenforced, although prohibitions on the sale of alcoholic beverages, and occasionally almost all commerce, on Sundays are still enforced in many areas.[1] Blue laws often prohibit an activity only during certain hours and there are usually exceptions to the prohibition of commerce, like grocery and drug stores. In some places blue laws may be enforced due to religious principles, but others are retained as a matter of tradition or out of convenience.[2]

 

Derivation

The term blue law may have been first used by the Reverend Samuel Peters (1735-1826) in his book General History of Connecticut, which was first published in 1781, to refer to various laws first enacted by Puritan colonies in the 17th century which prohibited the selling of certain types of merchandise and retail or business activity of any kind on certain days of the week, usually Sunday.

In Texas, for example, blue laws prohibited selling housewares such as pots, pans, and washing machines on Sunday until 1985. In Texas, Colorado, Illinois, Indiana, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin, car dealerships continue to operate under blue-law prohibitions in which an automobile may not be purchased or traded on a Sunday. In some cases these laws were created or retained with the support of those whom they affected, to allow them a day off each week without fear of their competitors still being open.[3]

Many states still prohibit selling alcohol on Sunday, or at least before noon on Sunday, under the rationale that people should be in church on Sunday morning, or at least not drinking. At least one unusual feature of American culture �?the ability to buy groceries, office supplies, and housewares from a drug store �?can be traced to blue laws (under blue laws, drug stores are generally allowed to remain open on Sunday to accommodate emergency medical needs).[citation needed]

.....

Southern and mid-western states also passed numerous laws to protect the Sabbath during the mid to late nineteenth century. Laws targeted numerous groups including saloon owners, Jews, Seventh-day Adventists, and non-religious peoples. These Sabbath laws enacted at the state and local levels would sometimes carry penalties for doing non-religious activities on Sunday as part of an effort to enforce religious observance and church attendance. Numerous people were arrested for playing cards, baseball, and even fixing wagon wheels on Sunday. Some of these laws still exist today.

....

Seventh-day Adventist Church

The Seventh-day Adventist Church has always taken a stance against blue laws. Churchmembers keep the Sabbath on Saturday, thus conflicting with Sunday laws. In the early days of the church in the mid 1800s, a number of Adventists in America were imprisoned for a short time for working in their fields on Sunday.

Consequently, in traditional Adventist eschatology (belief about the end-times), it is held that there will be an international Sunday law, with persecution enacted against Saturday-Sabbath keepers such as Adventists. This view is found in the writings of Ellen White and others. This view is still the mainstream church view worldwide. A substantial number of Adventists agree with this prediction.

 
God bless you Desi,
Seek.

Reply
 Message 9 of 11 in Discussion 
From: SeekingTruth4Sent: 7/2/2007 5:36 PM
Hiya everyone,
I would like to share a few extracts and comments for at the following website.
 
 

MANY CHURCH LEADERS and politicians are unified on the hotly debated issue of legislating Sunday as a day of rest. Today, great efforts are being made to gain influence in the executive and legislative circles of the United States federal government in order to enact laws for the observance of Sunday as a national day of rest. The thrust is not overtly religious but is couched in a concern for the welfare of the American family. This activity is being duplicated in other parts of the world as well under the same pretense.

 
“The civil authorities should be urged to cooperate with the church in maintaining and strengthening this public worship of God, and to support with their own authority the regulations set down by the church’s pastors. For it is only in this way that the faithful will understand why it is Sunday and not the Sabbath day that we now keep holy�?(Roman Catechism, 1985, emphasis supplied).
 
 

In a recent Catholic church newsletter, it stated, “Perhaps the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century [actually in happened in the fourth century]. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. ‘The Day of the Lord�?[Dies Domini] was chosen, not from any direction noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church’s sense of its own power.…People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become [Seventh-day] Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.�?Saint Catherine Catholic Church Sentinel, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995.

 
Sunday is a Catholic institution and its claim to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles.…From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.”�?I>Catholic Press, Sydney, Australia, 1900
 
 
“Sunday is our mark of authority.…The church is above the Bible, and this transference of sabbath observance is proof of that fact.�?The Catholic Record, London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.
 
 

“Question: Which day is the Sabbath?�?/P>

“Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath.�?/P>

Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?�?/P>

“Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.�?The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, by Peter Geiermann, 50.

 
There is also an online short book that you will find interesting read called
National Sunday Law. http://www.sundaylaw.net/books/nsl/en/nsltoc.htm

This book, "National Sunday Law" by A. Jan Marcussen was scanned with the written permission from the author for, and only for the spreading of God's word to all people.

The author can be reached at the following:

Pastor Jan Marcussen
P.O. Box 68
Thompsonville IL 62890
Phone: (618) 627-2009
Fax: (618) 627-2522

 
God bless everyone,
Seek.

Reply
 Message 10 of 11 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamedesi56111Sent: 7/3/2007 5:14 AM
 
Hiya Desi ,  Have you ever heard of the "Blue Laws" that are still on the books in the USA?
 
Sure have, i live in the south after all. for some reason the "law" of not selling beer from 12 AM -12 PM on Sundays, is only going to keep the "church crowd" from getting a "cold one" before the morning services. But the guys who actually DO drink, just tel to "load up the evening before." Makes perfect sense to me. 
 
...Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?�?/FONT>
“Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.�?The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, by Peter Geiermann, 50.
 
Mark 16:9 "Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons."
john 20:19 "Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you."   [-49 days from Pentacost]
 
...I know , i know, thats just what happened, thats not 'doctrine.'
 
Acts 2:41-42 "Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.  (apostlic teaching, fellowship +dinner, and prayer time)  [Pentacost Day, 50 days from ressurection day (1st day of the week) still is the 1st day of the week.]
 
Acts 20:7 Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight.    (communion, expository teaching)   [60-64 AD]
 
1corth 16:1-2 "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come."   (testamony to 2 churches of the gather together for WHEN the collections for the saints.)   [55-56 AD]
 
No offence again to the RCC references, of 300+ AD, the NT writings were in print well before any council, or Constantine. I dont go by "what the catholics say" or what the "baptist say" or what the "methodist say" or the SDA say, the BIBLE says "the Church gathered with the Apostles, on the first day of the week for teaching, communtion, fellowship, collections, prayer, and dinner" even. And NO Apostels seemed to rebuke anyone for "gathering on the 'wrong day'" for a LONG time.
But the Apostles did even say that "to those who esteem a day over another ---> 'more power to you'. And to those who DO NOT esteem a day over another, but treat everyday the same ---> 'more power to you, too.' Both people are BOTH God's." And peter confirms what paul said, when he calls ALL of pauls writings 'scripture' also.
 
So please spare the 'authority' of the RCC as far as having any 'authority' over the "C"hurch. The "C"hurch is people from both Jews and gentiles, not exclusivly the Roman Catholicism. "The price of tea in china" does not have any thing to do with it.

Reply
 Message 11 of 11 in Discussion 
From: SeekingTruth4Sent: 7/3/2007 6:14 AM
Hiya Desi,
 
I have started another discussion, "Sabbath to Sunday" at http://groups.msn.com/7thDayAdventistChatroom/biblediscussion.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=13670&LastModified=4675629420891581665 , as this discussion is about Sunday Law.
 
The reason i added the few lines from the 'Catechism of Catholic Doctrine', is that it teaches that the RCC believes it has the "authority" to change Gods Laws,  and that in our furture the RCC in coelition with secular powers will again attempt to enforce Sunday Law.
The issue here is WHO has the authority to mandate a day of rest and worship?
 
We need to remember that a beast in Bible prophecy is simply a dominating world power of that time, this is clearly shown in Daniel, Revelation is the expansion and continuation of Daniels prophecies and draws on Daniels prophecies when it comes to the make up of the beasts.
 
When the time comes i will show you clearly that the Bible references you have been given in an attempt to show that the Apostles started Sunday worship, are taken out of context and the only connection is that those particular events just happened to occur on the 1st day of the week, it could have been any day of the week. I will do this in the thread "Sabbath to Sunday".
 
God bless you Desi,
Seek.

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