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| | From:  HeroOfGod (Original Message) | Sent: 7/11/2007 1:46 AM |
While reading through the book of Genesis I found this "EverlastingCovenant" from God to Noah and to all the generations after him. When God calls this an Everlating Promise then isn't it still in effect today for all Gentile believers? Genesis 9 1And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. 2And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. 3Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. 4But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. 5And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. 6Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. 7And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein. 8And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, 9And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; 10And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth. 11And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. 12And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: 13I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. 14And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud: 15And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth. 17And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth. |
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Hero of God,
What in the world is your point?
Dave.
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: What does this mean?
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 21:09:46 -0700
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What does this mean?
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| From: HeroOfGod |
Actually the reason for my posting of this thread was to establish a point that being God made an everlasting covenant along with commandments for all Gentile peoples. This covenant predates the covenant made with with Moses and the tribe of Judah. Not all mankind came from the tribe of Judah but all mankind did come from Noah. So as I see it there are two everlasting covenants in effect today according to scripture. One everlasting covenant for all Gentiles and one for the Jewish Nation. Abraham's seed is not just of the Jewish Nation but also of the Gentile people's of the entire world to. Abraham was under the covenant that God made with Noah and the commandments contained within, because Abraham was a Gentile not a Jew. There were no Jews until Judah's offspring. Judah's 11 other brothers were Gentile and their offspring to even until this generation. A Gentile can convert and claim the Law of Moses but at the same time a Gentile can still claim the everlasting covenant and law made between God and Noah. So my question would be are we Gentiles suppose to buy into a new paradiagm or is Genesis 9:1-10 of no effect even though God said that this covenant would be everlasting? | |
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Hero of God,
There has been a paradigm shift.
What t he Seventhday Adventist Church has been preaching about the death of Christ, is totally wrong.
We have been preached to that Jesus died to pay a penalty for sin. Now understanding the true character of
God, would He let someone die for someone else sin? If that's the kind of God we serve, then we need to find another God.
Jesus die on the cross to show how much HE love us by allowing Himself to be beaten and killed without lifting a finger.
he could have called 10,000 legions of angles. But Jesus told them to stan down. He said "Father forgive them, they don't know what they're doing. Now that's love. This is the same character we as Christians must have before Christ comes back.
Not just Seventhday Adventist and other churches have listed to Satan's lie for too long that we are believing it.
Dave.
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: What does this mean?
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 21:09:46 -0700
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What does this mean?
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| From: HeroOfGod |
Actually the reason for my posting of this thread was to establish a point that being God made an everlasting covenant along with commandments for all Gentile peoples. This covenant predates the covenant made with with Moses and the tribe of Judah. Not all mankind came from the tribe of Judah but all mankind did come from Noah. So as I see it there are two everlasting covenants in effect today according to scripture. One everlasting covenant for all Gentiles and one for the Jewish Nation. Abraham's seed is not just of the Jewish Nation but also of the Gentile people's of the entire world to. Abraham was under the covenant that God made with Noah and the commandments contained within, because Abraham was a Gentile not a Jew. There were no Jews until Judah's offspring. Judah's 11 other brothers were Gentile and their offspring to even until this generation. A Gentile can convert and claim the Law of Moses but at the same time a Gentile can still claim the everlasting covenant and law made between God and Noah. So my question would be are we Gentiles suppose to buy into a new paradiagm or is Genesis 9:1-10 of no effect even though God said that this covenant would be everlasting? | |
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Hi Dave, Your premise is that Jesus died on the cross to show how much he loved us. I totally agree. Romans 5:8 states "But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." The sacrifice that Jesus made was a free gift to us-we did nothing to deserve it. But what about the "true character of God" required someone to die for us in the first place? Is that the kind of God we serve? My short answer is "yes," but I would like to hear what you think. In Christ, Bill |
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That shows the Holiness of God, being 100% Just in regards to punishing sin, and at the same time being 100% merciful, knowing full well that we could not "pay for our sins ourselves." (see parable of the unforgiving servant, also) but in regards to both satisfy the Justice of a Holy God, punishment for sin MUST be issued, and be completely paid for. Anything less is UNjust, and opposed to God's nature. A substitute HAD to be made, cause another sinful man, could not pay for 'another' sinful man's sins, because the 'sinful substitute' has to be paid for in regression order. There is therefore in effect "none righteous," all the way back to Adam. But God coming in Human form, (showing Mercy) being 100% sinless IS a worthy substitute to pay for another sins, and did. His blood was of that value to pay for the "sins of the whole world" (rom 5:8-10, 1john 2:2, ect.) So both Justice, and mercy was given at the cross. But we can reject His substitute, and "take our chances" on our own, standing up a Holy God. Good luck, but even the most self-righteous person, cannot stand in the presence of God, for OUR righteousness is but 'filthy rags.' (Ish 64:6)<o:p></o:p> |
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Desi - very well said! Bill |
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Desi, You wrote,"There is therefore in effect "none righteous," all the way back to Adam." In that one sentence you try and make God the Father a liar. There were in fact many righteous before the Law of Moses all the way back to Adam. Abel, Enoch, Noah, and Abraham were all considered righteous by God. They all kept the statutes and law of God before the Decolouge, but it was their Faith in God that made them righteous above all things even the commandments of God. Hebrews 11:4 says that through this sacrifice Abel was considered righteous. "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God" (Gen. 6:8�?). These men were all Gentiles before the Jewish peoples came into existance and the Law of Moses. This thread isn't about going off on another tangent. It is about the "Free Will" of getting to choose the Everlasting Covenant made with the Gentiles or choosing the Covenant of the Law made with the Jewish peoples. This is why Paul writes in Romans 14: | 1 | As for the man who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not for disputes over opinions. | | 2 | One believes he may eat anything, while the weak man eats only vegetables. | | 3 | Let not him who eats despise him who abstains, and let not him who abstains pass judgment on him who eats; for God has welcomed him. | | 4 | Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Master is able to make him stand. | | 5 | One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let every one be fully convinced in his own mind. | | 6 | He who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. He also who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while he who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. | | 7 | None of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. | | 8 | If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord; so then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. | | 9 | For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. | | 10 | Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; | | 11 | for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God." | | 12 | So each of us shall give account of himself to God. | | 13 | Then let us no more pass judgment on one another, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. | | 14 | I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but it is unclean for any one who thinks it unclean. | | 15 | If your brother is being injured by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. Do not let what you eat cause the ruin of one for whom Christ died. | | 16 | So do not let your good be spoken of as evil. | | 17 | For the kingdom of God is not food and drink but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit; | | 18 | he who thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. | | 19 | Let us then pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding. | | 20 | Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for any one to make others fall by what he eats; | | 21 | it is right not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that makes your brother stumble. | | 22 | The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God; happy is he who has no reason to judge himself for what he approves. | | 23 | But he who has doubts is condemned, if he eats, because he does not act from faith; for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. | Thus is the example of "Free Will" that Paul preaches to us. This is why I started this thread to substaniate that we can choose either of the Covenants Everlasting that God has made with mankind. One based on Faith entirely or one based on the Law. |
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Hi Dave You said Hero of God,
There has been a paradigm shift.
What the Seventhday Adventist Church has been preaching about the death of Christ, is totally wrong. Says you and who else. We have been preached to that Jesus died to pay a penalty for sin. Thank God for Jesus if not what would have been of man since there is sin in man from the moment that Adam and Eve sinned. . Now understanding the true character of God, would He let someone die for someone else sin? If that's the kind of God we serve, then we need to find another God. Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. From the moment Adam and Eve sinned, someone has died to cover up for their sin. God Himself killed the animals that He used to cover Adam and Eve. And from then on only one life for a life, as sin was death, a life for a life. Furthermore, do read the book of Isaiah and see how Jesus is the promised for all our sins. Past - to Adam, Moses and the others; present - to me, you and everyone else today, future - to every man there of that will walk the earth till the second coming of Jesus. Jesus die on the cross to show how much HE love us by allowing Himself to be beaten and killed without lifting a finger. As the promised lamb that was not to say a word.
he could have called 10,000 legions of angles. But Jesus told them to stan down. He said "Father forgive them, they don't know what they're doing. Now that's love. This is the same character we as Christians must have before Christ comes back. Not just Seventhday Adventist and other churches have listed to Satan's lie for too long that we are believing it.
We all due respect Dave, but before you make such a general statement that questions the teachings of a faith. Please get to know first who is that this faith bases its beliefs in. The SDA teachings are not base on the desires of man but the will of the Lord. I just used the beginning, the first sin and the first expiation of sin. God was the one that set it up and not man. Later we have it with Cain and Abel. So please Get to know God and the will of God so you can know what is and what is not of God. May the Lord have mercy in us. |
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Hero, Desi, You wrote,"There is therefore in effect "none righteous," all the way back to Adam."(1) In that one sentence you try and make God the Father a liar. (2)There were in fact many righteous before the Law of Moses all the way back to Adam. Abel, Enoch, Noah, and Abraham were all considered righteous by God. (3) They all kept the statutes and law of God before the Decolouge, but it was their Faith in God that made them righteous above all things even the commandments of God. (1) Please show me where i 'made God a lier.' I quoted what the bible has stated. Rom 3:9-22 "What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood. Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that whatever things the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law, there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Contrast --> But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being testified by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God, which is by faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all them that believe; for there is no difference:" (2) Adam, Noah, and the others that are listed we're not 'sinless' but believed God, and were called 'rightious', but not 'sinless' (big differance.) (3) Please give references of their "keeping the commands and statutes" because if my memory is correct Adam did not. and if Abraham's lying about his wife, to save his own skin was a "rightious" act, then ill stand corrected. Sinless, and having God's rightiousness THOUGH FAITH (not the law) are 2 differant things, you know this, do you not? |
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Desi, As you asked for here it is. Command of God/Works Genesis 12 1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. 4So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran. Result of Works/Faith in God Genesis 15:6 6And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Restated by James, Abraham's Righteousness James 2:21-23 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Hope you can understand the implications of scripture from both Testaments of the Bible. |
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hero i believe you err when you stated that in your last post. I may be in error, but i would srespectfully disagree, in that the contexts of the passages you site, with the suggestive headings. gen 12:1-4 "Now the Lord had said (past tense in Cp.11) to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." [Abrahamic Covenent] So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran. God Commanded, Abram "went." Remember without faith, there was no reason to "Go." I disagree with your assestment, "Result of Works/ Faith in God." but rather it should be in reverse... "Results of Faith/ Works" *(eph 2:10, titus 2:14) also, many years later Gen 15:6 and God repeats His promise to Abraham of that he will have a son, of his own, and not his chief steward. gen 15:3-6 "Then Abram said, "Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!" And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir." Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be. And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness" there is no 'works' by Abraham, but it says "abraham believed God, and God accounted abraham for righteousness" {Paul recounts, in giving an OT example. of justification by faith, and apart from 'works'} rom 3:30"since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith..." 4:1-4 "What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt." so this is why i disgree with your assestment of "result of works/ faith in God." James does refere to Abraham also concerning the Sacerfice of Issac of Gen 22, and not of Gen. 15. And again the "result of works/ faith in God" assestment is in error, and should be reversed to "Results of Faith-> works" God told Abraham to sacerfice Issac, and we're told .. heb 11:17-19 "By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, of whom it was said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called, [gen 15] concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, [gen 22] from which he also received him in a figurative sense. " james 2:21-23 " Was not Abraham our father justified *('demostrated', not 'declared') by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? [gen 22] Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.[gen 15]" And he was called the friend of God. James says, "true faith will produce works, not 'by works one proves one has faith'. and becuase 'true faith produces the works', i question if you have faith, if you dont do the works." [2:14-18] thats differant from "if you do works *(to gain righteousness), that dosent mean you have faith." even athiest can be 'moral' *(works) and yet will go to hell. |
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"God Commanded, Abram "went." Remember without faith, there was no reason to "Go."
I disagree with your assestment, "Result of Works/ Faith in God."
but rather it should be in reverse... "Results of Faith/ Works" *(eph 2:10, titus 2:14)"
Hero, I have to give this one to Desi. He is absolutely right; Works are the result of faith. Faith must be first. Hebrews 11: makes it clear that faith enabled the works, even the miraculous. Sarah received power to conceive through her faith. Wow! |
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Hiya Blue,
Was it Sarah's or Abraham's faith? The way i see it , it was Abraham's faith, Sarah laughed when God said she would have a baby, its a case of the faith of another that God honoured to bring about the miracle.
God bless you Blue,
Seek. |
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Seek,
The verse in Hebrews 11 seems to indicate that the faith that gave Sarah power to conceive was her own.
Heb 11:11
By faith even Sarah herself received power to
conceive seed when she was past age, since she
counted him faithful who had promised:
I wonder if she could have done that with Abraham's faith only. But I'm so glad that she believed also. |
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Heb 11:11
By faith even Sarah herself received power to
conceive seed when she was past age, since she
counted him faithful who had promised: Its not told "by [whos] faith even Sarah herself recieved power..." We understand that in the genesis account Abraham believed God, about himm having a son, even in his old age *(gen 15:1-6) and sarah laffed at such a notion that she could even 'enjoy pleasure' in her old age, more than less have a child. *(16:11-13) but God says "you laffed, but I'm going to get the last laff, your going to conveive." really by whom "person's" faith in unknown, either Abraham or Sarah *( even thoough she at first did not believe) but later 'repented' of her unbelief. But Abraham's faith was already established back in gen 15. the phrase "by faith even sarah...." is generic, and not specific of "who's faith" the verse is talking about. but the point of "by faith..." and thats the first that must happen before anything can happen. |
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Are we reading the same verse?
Yeah, Sarah laughed. At first it must have been pretty funny to her to think that such an old woman would have pleasure, give birth and nurse a child. But that doesn't mean she continued to doubt.
The end of the verse says, "since (same as because in KJV) she counted him faithful who had promised:", (NIV?).
I don't know about you guys, but to me that says she believed God on her own. That means she had faith as well Abraham, receiving power to conceive through it. |
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