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As a spin-off from the thread about Jesus going to hell, I would like to open a new discussion, about our nature as human beings. Whether or not we as humans possess a spirit is so important that it really can be called the "crux of the matter". Our belief regarding this will influence our perception of just about everything, including our reading of and ability to understand the Word, our very approach to life, and the way we relate to the event called death.

So what kind of creatures are we? And do we differ in nature from animals? I realize we are more important to God than animals, in that Jesus died for us and not them, but are there other differences? If so, what are these differences?

Are humans in fact three-part beings, comprised of a Spirit, a Soul, and a Body? This is the understanding of much of the Body of Christ.

I am familiar with Adventist teaching regarding the nature of man, having often studied the rationale that 'spirit' only means 'breath'. I was taught that man is simply a flesh being with God's life force breathed into him/her at creation (Adam and Eve) or else given at an individual's birth. I learned that man does not possess a living spirit that exists elsewhere after a person's physical death.

What I'd like to do here is consider the many references to 'spirit' and the nature of man throughout the Bible and study them in their context, hopefully ending up with a broad overview of what the Bible says on the subject.

I have alot of questions, thanks in advance for the participation!

Mae

Good discussion topic!

One pastor I spoke with a few years ago mentioned that "soul" was, in essence, a person. His example: "Old King Cole was a merry old soul."

However, the Bible (particularly NT) does seem to differentiate clearly between body and soul.

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matt 10:28)

May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 5:23)

Hi Bill,

LOL, that was a joke, right? (Old king Cole...............) Then again, maybe not.................

Thanks for quoting those two texts, they were in the back of my mind, and I was going to get around to them. Matthew 10:28 is amazing to me, in that it confirms two hugely important things (and the fact that these words were spoken by our Lord makes them all the more relevant). The first thing that stands out for me is that Jesus is saying that the death of the body does not cause the simultaneous death of the soul. He makes reference to those who are able to kill the body only, but are unable to kill the soul, and says not to fear those people. Jesus is teaching that we as humans have a part of us that exists apart from our bodies after we die: He called it the 'soul'. Other Bible writers call it the 'spirit' of man.

The second thing that impresses me from this text is that Jesus is stating in no uncertain terms that it is possible for the human soul to die: and that God is the only one who has the power to destroy it. The place He will destroy both soul and body is Hell. This statement completely contradicts the eternal hellfire teaching that has souls living forever and ever, burning endlessly.

Thanks again for your input,

Mae

To be in God image is to be in the spirit of God in all we do. and then it will be God the one doing it all. As it was so well made cleared to us by Jesus as He addressed the concerns of the disciples in John 14. God may be referred to in the bible to have human characteristics but it does not means that God has human form. When we read of God having this characteristics is for us to understand better so we can know Him better.

When a writer uses the term " like a or as a " is call a simile. It is used to make a comparison so we can see it more clear. It is not meant to make the 2 equal. The bible is clear as to God being a spirit, God is love. It does not give the Lord any physical attributes.

sorry to have to write another post but I needed it to be separated.

The issues of spirit is something that we as Christian have to know very well since it is the roots of who we are and it says as well to others who we are. The bible says that we will know by the fruits of the spirit as to who is in control of the man, who is the one behind the scenes.

We have to deal with 2 types of spirits. One is to be the Holy Spirit and the other to be the evil spirit. To have the Holy Spirit is to have and be guided by God. When we summit in to Jesus lordship and we stop being in control of our own life. He is the one that leads us. When we get into studying the Holy Spirit itself, we find that it is more than an emotion as someone can say to be in good spirit - to have the spirit of laughter, to be in love, to do a good deed and so on. The Holy Spirit is God and not an attribute of God, something that speaks of God's greatness.

In the other hand, the evil spirit is the one in control of satan and all the fallen angels. It give life to all of them and its the source of all their evil. The only problem with them is that they all are going after the same prize. They all want the glory. They all want to be God. The best way to explain this have you seen how a dictator has no second in command in fear of being overthrown. The same envy that was in Lucifer is in all the angels that were cast out of heaven with him. So instead of just the enemy we also have daemons that we have to deal with also. Some times they have their own but yet the same agenda.

So a spirit is the driving force behind the person and not the person but yet it becomes the person. Anger, envy, lust, greed, and so on. all with one purpose, to destroy the person that they take control of. Unlike the spirit of God, that all that the Lord wants is to save the man that it take control of, it becomes its Lord.

To Our Lord Jesus as God we give all the glory seen their is no one better than Him. Who loves us more.

May the Lord bless us all.

Hi love2obey,

I think I understand the point you are making, about the very real spiritual influence of either God or the enemy. Thanks for sharing that.

I agree with your observation in #8 The issues of spirit is something that we as Christian have to know very well since it is the roots of who we are

That is exactly what I am hoping to explore: who and what are we as human beings? Specifically, are we the same as animals, other than having superior intellect?

Thanks,

Mae

superior intellect maybe debateable, but "ego" is something humans posses in superior amounts over the animal kingdom, without debate.

LOL, Desi, I think humans must have superior intellect, cause last time I checked chimpanzees have not yet engineered a spacecraft and sent anyone to the moon.

All joking aside though, the reason I ask the question, is that I'm trying to uncover the most notable difference between humans and animals, namely that we were created in the image of God. Possibly to some this topic seems redundant, but to others who are maybe unsure of man's nature, it's really important. It's these I hope to engage in a thought-provoking pursuit of what the Bible says about the subject. So come one, come all, anyone who enjoys thinking, lol.

That brings me again to the question, in what way are we created in the image of God? As quoted above, John 4:24 says God is Spirit. But it also says those who worship Him (that would be us) must worship in spirit, and in truth.

So how do creatures (who are not spirit) worship God, who is spirit? (This hypothetical question is based on the assumption that not everyone believes humans have a spirit). As I've said , SDA historically have taught that the meaning of 'spirit' in reference to humans only means the breath of life that God breathed into Adam and Eve. My understanding developed over 55 years of being in the denomonation is that the Church's fundamental beliefs do not consider man to be a spirit being housed in a flesh body, having a mind, will and emotions (soul) as does most of Christendom. (This is not to deny that today there are likely some practising SDAs who personally disagree with this fundamental belief, in favour of a more Biblical view).

The reason that I find this such an important subject to work through, is that there are so very many Scriptures that are bewildering if one does not believe that man has a spirit.

Blessings to everybody,

Mae

Hi everybody,

As I said, much of the Bible seems confusing without the correct understanding of our nature.

One of the passages I used to find so bewildering was Jesus' conversatio with Nicodemus in John 3, the first 12 or so verses. This is where Jesus taught about the new birth, without which no one will see the Kingdom of God, as He said.

Nicodemus was mystified.

So are alot of Christians.

What is the new birth, also known as being 'born again"? How does this happen? What is the change that happens, and how does it occur? I've never really heard alot of Adventist teaching on this.

Mae

Hi Mae

What is the new birth, also known as being 'born again"? How does this happen? What is the change that happens, and how does it occur? I've never really heard alot of Adventist teaching on this.

You have not been in a church where I preach or I serve as an Elder. This is the core of who we are in the eye's of God. I was made since birth in the image of God but since God is not human as I am in the flesh, I must allow the spirit of God that is always in me to lead me and be all that I am to be. When we humble to the fact that we are never to give into the flesh and only to God, to the spirit of God that has always been in us and we didn't know it because we had not given into His lordship, will we then be transformed, converted, reborn, have a new birth, be new. We will look at far to be the same but up close we will be so different that we will not be in no way shape or form be who we used to be. Neither us nor anyone who comes in contact with us will be able to recognize us. It is a total different me. Yet, we are in the same body.

When the spirit of God takes over a man, a man changes. A new man is born and the old man dies. I, Myself do not recognize me. All my life I have always excel in all that I do. It is totally different when one is smart than when one is wise. One thing is to be a good doer and another is to be a humble servant of the Lord. To be someone is to have characteristics that speaks of who we are. When we read the bible, we read about all that characteristics of what makes God not just a god but the God of all gods. It is not just about God being a spirit but all that spirit is says to us that is the spirit of God and not just any spirit. When the Lord takes over a person by the aid of the Holy Spirit, the Lord is the one that does all that the person does. It is no longer the person but God in the person. We as fleshly being can be vehicle of the will of the Lord. Therefore, we can be as God, in the image of God, and do things that no human can normally do. It does not mean that we are God. He made us to be to His likeness, in His image, which means to me to be like Him. And this happens only when a person give up the old and accepts the new life that Jesus give us and empowers us to live. Yes, we are empowered by Holy Spirit, by the same spirit that inspired and empowered Jesus, by the Spirit of God, by God Himself, by Jesus. Let us never forget that Jesus was human as well and lived in this world as the son of Mary but only answered to and was guided by the spirit of God in Him. He had needs and He had options to satisfy those needs but He had only one choice as by faith He only believed in one. The one that He knew was not going to let Him down.

The bible has to me 3 chapters that are very, very important in the definition of God's creation and what happen to its creation. That is Genesis 1, 2, and 3. We then have 4 chapters that are very, very special for us to understand what it is all about after we have accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Those chapters are John 14, 15, 16 and 17. These chapters are where Jesus tells man what and how is all going to happen to us after all that He has done for us. How in the hands of God, we will be someone special to God. And the one to make us special will be Jesus and not us for us. What was lost in the Garden of Eden is restored in the hands of God by the Love of God.

By the way Mae, we are to busy filling up the churches with bodies and not filling up our bodies with the Holy Spirit. I preach and teach about a living God. I tried in all that I present my Lord to be in a way that it is possible as He is the one that makes it all possible. Kind of make sense of that which is impossible to know. We human, in our finite minds, are the one that are limiting the Lord. Moses was a man, a very meek man, and the Lord spoke a lot for a very long time to him. The Lord is alive in everyone of us. It is up to us to give into the Lord and let His spirit, the Holy Spirit to take lordship over our mind which then will take over our body. Churches may be full of bodies but are empties due to the fact that everybody is not under the Lordship of the Holy Spirit. Then and only then, will we see a church where the spirit of God is in the church. The church will be on fire and all man will see from very far is the light that comes off the flames. Man will follow the light to the lighthouse. The Holy Spirit comes from within as God is always with us. We just did not give into Him so we did not know it. The Lord talks to us from within, through His written word and through other man. All will be of one accord since it is the same who is speaking to us. When we stand firm in our faith and in our love for the Lord, the conversation is endless and the growth as well.

We are saved by the faith of in One and not by the faith of many. We are to develop the same faith as He and in He and then share it to the many. So the many can have the same as us with our testimony of the one in who we believe no matter what.

God bless us all.

May we be blessed with the humbleness and meekness of Jesus so we can be guided by the Holy Spirit.

Hi Everybody,

One thing I've noticed, is that in considering this topic of whether or not man is a triune being of Body, Soul, and Spirit, there seems to be an assumption that to regard man as a spirit being (who has a soul and lives in a body) must necessarily equate with the idea that such spirits are immortal. As a result of this misunderstanding, the doctrine of eternal hellfire emerged, a doctrine which SDA opposes as being unbiblical (with good reason, in my opinion).

In my reading of Scripture, it seems clear that man, created in the image of God, is himself a spirit being to whom God gave a physical body in which to dwell on the earth. He has a soul (mind, will, and emotions). However I do not see that man is an "immortal" spirit (ie incapable of dying) because Adam and Eve were warned that on the day they ate of the fruit, they "would surely die". The explanation that 'death' only means separation from God does not seem compelling to me. I believe that on the day they ate of the fruit, something did actually die. I wonder if the 'something' that died was the eternal nature of their spirits. I've never heard this idea taught in SDA circles (because the SDA church teaches spirit = breath) or Evangelical circles (because they believe every human spirit is eternal, even those who have not been born again with the New Birth of John 3:1-12).

Genesis 3:22 tells us something vital. It tells us that God removed Adam and Eve from the garden because there was the potential of their eating from the tree of life, which would have the effect of giving them the ability to live forever.

"Then the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us,

knowing good and evil; and now, lest he

stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of live,

and eat, and live forever---" NAS

From this we understand that without eating, Adam and Eve would eventually die. The events described in Genesis 3:22 show clearly that after they sinned, they did not of themselves possess immortality.

Jesus made an interesting comment once, it's found in Matthew 10:28:

"And do not fear those who kill the body, but

are unable to kill the soul;

but rather fear Him who is able to destroy

both soul and body in Hell". NAS

I think this text raises interesting questions for both those who believe in the inherent immortality of the soul, and for those who don't believe we have a spirit at all. It's my opinion that both views are incorrect, based on this and other texts.

When Jesus said not to fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul, He is making it clear that following the death of the flesh body, something continues to live on apart from the physical. In Matthew 10:28 He calls it the soul. NT writers refer to it as the 'inner man' or the spirit.

Equally important, in this text Jesus is making it clear that the soul/spirit is able to experience death, hence it is not immortal. He is stating that God is able to kill the soul in Hell. And He is strongly implying that the death of the soul is a much more signifigant event than the death of the body.

I'm no theologian, but I read alot, and I think alot. I've wondered, was Satan actually correct when he said to Eve, "you shall not surely die"? God had said that in the very day they ate, they would die. I think we should believe God, and that something actually died on the day Adam and Eve ate. Really, when you think about it, that one incident even by itself refutes the view that man does not have a spirit, because one has to question, what died? It was not their flesh. In order for God's word to be true, something had to have died.

Over in another thread "Does Hell = Eternal Torment? I talked about my why I can't believe in eternal hellfire where the spirits never die. I asked,

I have a question for anyone who believes in the doctrine of eternal hellfire (that the wicked will burn endlessly, for ever and ever, on and on throughout eternity, in some far off corner, sort of like the garbage dump of the universe). My question is, what does the word "death" mean? And what does the term "second death" mean?

Jesus said He came to give us eternal life. The Bible writers speak of eternal life being the free gift of God, indicating that we don't automatically possess it when we are born. If it is true that some people will live on forever, completely apart from God, burning endlessly, never being able to escape the torment by dying, then they too (by definition) have eternal life, don't they? If that is true, Jesus perhaps should have said that He came to give us a better place to spend eternal life, rather than saying He came to give us eternal life.

I don't know who first came up with the concept of eternal life spent in hell, but it sure wasn't the Bible writers. The way I presently understand it is that they taught there would be death for the wicked. The Bible refers to this event as the "second death", to differentiate it from death of the flesh. (Again, my understanding). Jesus made a distinction between death of the body (He called it a sleep) and the death of the spirit.

If 'absence of life' does not define the word 'death', what does the word mean?

Some will say death simply means to be separated from God, but I don't buy that simplistic explanation. God is good enough to say what He means, and mean what He says. If separation from God is the very definition of death, then there are alot of fallen angels and sinful humans walking around dead, even as we speak.

No, I don't buy it. Revelation 20:14 says, "And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire". NAS Clearly something important is happening here. Is 'death' thrown into the lake of fire simply to remove the only way of escape from everlasting torment for those who must endure it? Or is God making a complete end to sin and its effects? When Revelation 20:4 says that "the old conditions and the former order of things have passed away", to what does this refer?

So, strange as it might sound to some people, this is my present thinking. I believe the Scripture teaches we are created Spirit, Soul, and Body. There is much evidence that for the Believer, the Apostle Paul's statement "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" is quite literal. The Bible also teaches that for the unbeliever, the Second Death in Hell is the final punishment. ("The soul that sins shall die". Ezekiel 18:20). I do not see that Scripture denies our existence as human spirits; neither do I see it teaching that the human spirits who have ultimately rejected Christ will possess immortality.

Those are just my thoughts.

Mae

Let me say first that if man is created in the image of God wouldn't that mean God is made from the dust of the earth?

Another point is that if God is eternal and everlasting from the beginning and if man is made in God's image then doesn't the same apply to man?

Need we sin to recieve everlasting and eternal life?

Does a new born baby who lives for 7 days and dies need to ask for forgivenesss and claim faith in Jesus to recieve the promise of God?

Does scripture tell us of a cutoff age to recieve the free gift of God if we don't have faith in Jesus as our savior, knowing that we are to young to undersatand, for that matter even to old?

If our soul can die for eternity than are we in fact made in the expressed image of God if God's soul can't ever die? Therein lies the difference between God and man, God has always been and eternal Spirit mankind was created soul(body) lacking a spirit, but given the spirit by God Himself of which God can let live or kill eternally.

So ask yourself are we really little gods, I don't think so.

Barbie dolls are made in the image of people, but it doesn't mean that they are real people. In the same way, we may share some characteristics or traits with God in a very limited capacity, but it doesn't mean we are the same as God.

Therein lies the difference between God and man, God has always been and eternal Spirit mankind was created soul(body) lacking a spirit, but given the spirit by God Himself of which God can let live or kill eternally.

Thre are a few more differences between God and man, but to your point - you are saying we were created without a spirit by God but given a spirit by God. So we obtain a spirit later in life? Are you talking the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

What was your point regarding newborn babies? Do you believe the Bible refers to an age of accountability or are we all accountable from birth? I am not sure how this pertains.

May the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus,

I don't lack understanding and neither do you. The point I made is very understandable yet you have chosen to make an arguement. A baby is born not breathing(lacking breathe of Life), upon it's first breathe a baby recieves the breathe(Spirit) of God.

goodness, hero. you know where that comment can lead?

"IF" a baby does not have the "breath of life" then abortion is not really 'murder' isn't it? after all the baby is not really "alive"?

even in the OT law, there was repucutions for if a woman was struck, and the baby was killed. (ex21:22) So how can a baby be killed, if it wasnt alive to begin with?

obviously i disagree with your statement, but rather see the bible saying that life begins at conception. (luke 1:15, 1:41)

Hero,

I'll attempt to answer your questions, copied in brown.

Let me say first that if man is created in the image of God wouldn't that mean God is made from the dust of the earth?

No, that would not mean God is made from the dust of the earth, because the Bible says God is Spirit. Spirit is not flesh. As Jesus said to Nicodemus, "That which is born of Spirit is spirit, and that which is born of the flesh is flesh". John 3:6 There is a difference between flesh and spirit.

Another point is that if God is eternal and everlasting from the beginning and if man is made in God's image then doesn't the same apply to man?

No, the same does not apply to man because man is not God. It sounds like you are having trouble with the concept of man being created in God's image, as stated in Genesis 1:26-27. Perhaps you should take it up with the Author of that statement.

Does a new born baby who lives for 7 days and dies need to ask for forgivenesss and claim faith in Jesus to recieve the promise of God?

Perhaps you have had little contact with newborn babies, and don't realize that 7-day old infants can neither speak or comprehend the concept of sinfulness or need for forgiveness.

Does scripture tell us of a cutoff age to recieve the free gift of God if we don't have faith in Jesus as our savior, knowing that we are to young to undersatand, for that matter even to old?

No, not to my knowledge.

If our soul can die for eternity than are we in fact made in the expressed image of God if God's soul can't ever die?

Again, it seems you're having difficulty with the concept as expressed by God in Genesis 1:26-27. You could answer this question for yourself, if you went back and read the account of what God said to Adam and Eve, when He forbade them to eat of the fruit of the tree. He said they would die in the day they ate from it. Now I have a question for you, if you wouldn't mind answering. You say, mankind was created soul(body) lacking a spirit We know that Adam and Eve did not die physically on the day they ate. So what, or who, died? Was Satan actually speaking the truth when he said they would not die?

Lastly, you say So ask yourself are we really little gods, I don't think so. No, Hero, we are not "little gods". But we are children of our Father in Heaven, His offspring, new creatures in Christ, and Heirs with Him. We were created to rule over all the earth and every living thing on it.(see Genesis 1:26) We were made to to the job our Father in Heaven gave us to do. Look what Ephesians 2:5-6 says about who we are: "Even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus".

In your reply to Bill in #17 you said, upon it's first breathe a baby recieves the breathe(Spirit) of God. Are you saying that the Spirit every newborn baby reiceves (when they start to breathe outside the mother's body) is the Holy Spirit? Because that would then mean that there is no-one without the Holy Spirit, and that everyone, no matter how evil, possesses the Holy Spirit by virtue of breathing. Could you explain?

Mae

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