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Is Michael, Jesus Christ or is Michael one of the chief princes?
Explain the difference. |
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Hiya everyone, One day i was reading Zechariah and saw an interesting verse there, it stuck out like a neon light and i would like to share it now as a comparison to Jude 9, looking at who is saying what. (kjv) Jude 1:9 - Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. kjv) Zechariah 3:2 - And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? Interesting huh God bless you all, Seek |
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Hi Seek! I know we had this discussion one night on chat and we chose to disagree on this one, and that's ok. I consider you a dear brother. A thought came to me this morning tho, and I would like to run it by all who think Jesus is Michael the archangel. Actually, I would like you to do 2 things and see how it goes for you. 1. Next time you are involved in a deliverance session, try casting out that demon in the name of Michael the archangel . 2. Start ending your prayers "in the name of Michael the archangel " especially when praying with other Christians. Are you comfortable enough with this doctrine to do that ? I think number 1 will result in you being beaten up just like one of the seven sons of Sceva. (See Acts 19:14) I think number 2 will have us back in the cult books faster than you can say 'Michael'. What do you all think ? God bless, Love and Grace |
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Hiya everyone, Yeah Grace we are brothers and i do believe we can have different opinions and all together divide the Word and see what scripture tells us. I did my own study on the subject of Michael away from any one church doctrine just to see what the bible said about Michael, and also looking at other sources outside of the bible. To me its one of those grey areas that can cause contention. I agree with you Grace that using Michael is really inappropriate, like using Emmanuel in coming against devils, to me there is one name, Jesus, that all authority is under. I would like to make a point, that SDA's dont say Jesus is an angel, the term Archangel means chief, or leader of the angels, Jesus is the leader of the angels, of the host of angels, it doesnt make Him an angel, and then the name Michael is used in a similar way as Emmanuel, Wonderful Counsellor, Prince of Peace. God bless you all, Seek. |
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| | | Hiya everyone, Yeah Grace we are brothers and i do believe we can have different opinions and all together divide the Word and see what scripture tells us. I did my own study on the subject of Michael away from any one church doctrine just to see what the bible said about Michael, and also looking at other sources outside of the bible. To me its one of those grey areas that can cause contention. I agree with you Grace that using Michael is really inappropriate, like using Emmanuel in coming against devils, to me there is one name, Jesus, that all authority is under. I would like to make a point, that SDA's dont say Jesus is an angel, the term Archangel means chief, or leader of the angels, Jesus is the leader of the angels, of the host of angels, it doesnt make Him an angel, and then the name Michael is used in a similar way as Emmanuel, Wonderful Counsellor, Prince of Peace. God bless you all, Seek. To be chief of the angels or an Archangel one has to be an angel or one of many of the same. Jesus is the only begotten which separates Him from all created beings. Think about it, Jesus never stoops to battle, Jesus has an army of angels to do that. True he commands the angels now but before His ascension Jesus could have commaned the angels but he gave up all divinity to live as man. Archangel and Chief Prince both are names refering to angels, created beings. Jesus being the Son of God gave up all divinty become human and serve his Father. That being said we know as believers that man is created lower than angels in the heirarchy. Jesus was born lower than the angels so Jesus(God) could walk the earth as man. Jesus was subordinate to the angels and equal to man. In Matthew 4 prior to the start of his ministry, Jesus does not claim authority over Satan but He states basically that by the word's of the Lord thy God that Satan is rebuked. Jesus is King of Kings, Lord of Lords, as it may be Kings and Lords delegate down their authority and command, but Jesus does retain full and ultimate command. This analogy is common to all Heirarchies. Michael and Gabriel are the two highest ranking Archangels, Michael being the Chief Prince of all the Archangels and subordinate angels. The names of the Archangels Michael means, "Who is like God" (excuse me but Jesus is God not Michael) Gabriel means, "God is my strength" Raphael means, "Healing power of God" Uriel means, "God is light" Chamuel means, "He who sees God" Jophiel means, "Beauty of God" Raguel means, "Friend of God" Each Archangel individually comprises a virtue of God. All virtues combined and we see God through the Archangels. | | |
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| | | Hiya everyone, Yeah Grace we are brothers and i do believe we can have different opinions and all together divide the Word and see what scripture tells us. I did my own study on the subject of Michael away from any one church doctrine just to see what the bible said about Michael, and also looking at other sources outside of the bible. To me its one of those grey areas that can cause contention. I agree with you Grace that using Michael is really inappropriate, like using Emmanuel in coming against devils, to me there is one name, Jesus, that all authority is under. I would like to make a point, that SDA's dont say Jesus is an angel, the term Archangel means chief, or leader of the angels, Jesus is the leader of the angels, of the host of angels, it doesnt make Him an angel, and then the name Michael is used in a similar way as Emmanuel, Wonderful Counsellor, Prince of Peace. God bless you all, Seek. In this post I am only going to address the statement that Seek posts. That is, " I would like to make a point, that SDA's dont say Jesus is an angel". What seek says may actually be true in his mind but other SDA differ in their belief. Why? In studying about this question I came across this. Patriarchs and Prophets, pg761 paragraph 5 Ch. title: appendix
Again Christ is called the Word of God. John1:1-3 . He is so called because God gave his revelations to man in all ages through Christ. it was his spirit that inspired the prophets 1 Pet.1:10,11 he was revealed to them as the angel of Jehovah, the captain of the Lords host, Michael the Archangel Spiritual Gifts, Vol.1,pg43 paragraph 1 Ch Title the transfiguration I saw that Moses passed through death, but Michael came down and gave him life before he saw corruption. Satan claimed the body as his but Michael resurrected Moses and took him to heaven . The Devil tried to hold his body and railed out bitterly against God ,denounced him as unjust, in taking from him his prey. But Michael did not rebuke the Devil. although was through his temptation and power that Gods servant had fallen. Christ meekly referred him to his Father saying, The Lord rebuke thee. 1897 comment on Rev 8:3,
"the ministry of the angel at the altar of incense is representative of Christ's intercession"...
{ms 15, 1897}
1900"The mighty angel who instructed John{Rev1:1} was no less than the person of Christ"
{ms 59,1900}
1903"The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty "{ms 150,SDA Bible commentary
Vol.5 p.1129}
1904 "To Christ had been given an exalted position. He has been made equal with the Father {Testimonies Vol. 8, pg.268}
1905 comment on Rev 10:6"In swearing by the creator the angel who is Christ, swore by himself." { ibid. ,pg 798} Prophets and kings pg.572
"For three weeks Gabriel wrestled with the powers of darkness, seeking to counteract the influences at work on the mind of Cyrus; and before the contest closed Christ himself came to Gabriel's aid." I do not knock Ellen G White here I am just pointing out why many SDA could and would believe Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel.
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HIya everyone, Thank you Voice for posting the quotes from Ellen White's writings, i found it a blessing and a lesson, someone can totally get the wrong message, while others see it, where our mind is and what we are looking for can blind us from the simple truth right in front of us. Im glad you could see the truth about Michael as i explained it to you. Im interested tho, you stated .... ""I would like to make a point, that SDA's dont say Jesus is an angel". What seek says may actually be true in his mind but other SDA differ in their belief." You have made this statement about what the worldwide church of 17 million SDA's think regarding Michael, im impressed on your depth of research. Would you please share with us the facts of the matter, not your opinion please, and show us the research you have done to make such a bold statement. As i have not met one SDA who believes as you imply that Jesus is an angel. God bless you all, Seek. |
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| | | HIya everyone, Thank you Voice for posting the quotes from Ellen White's writings, i found it a blessing and a lesson, someone can totally get the wrong message, while others see it, where our mind is and what we are looking for can blind us from the simple truth right in front of us. Im glad you could see the truth about Michael as i explained it to you. Im interested tho, you stated .... ""I would like to make a point, that SDA's dont say Jesus is an angel". What seek says may actually be true in his mind but other SDA differ in their belief." You have made this statement about what the worldwide church of 17 million SDA's think regarding Michael, im impressed on your depth of research. Would you please share with us the facts of the matter, not your opinion please, and show us the research you have done to make such a bold statement. As i have not met one SDA who believes as you imply that Jesus is an angel. God bless you all, Seek Seek, I will let you make the decision for yourself but I will use figures that you have provided. You state, "You have made this statement about what the worldwide church of 17 million SDA's think regarding Michael, im impressed on your depth of research." With that being stated I ask you to consider how many SDA members hold Ellen G White's writings as God inspired through her visions? Also I ask you to consider how many SDA members refer and fall back to Ellen G White in their study and understanding of the Bible? With this being said simple math will tell us plenty. For instance if 5 out of 10 members hold to every word Ellen G White wrote that would be 8.5 million SDA members in accord. But I would almost bet the number is more like 8 out of 10 SDA members believe everyword Ellen G White wrote as true and God inspired. Using that assumed figure and calculating the percentage of people that would be 13.6 million members in one accord concerning Ellen G White directions through visions to the SDA Church. There is no need for me to conduct a survey of every SDA member it is easily predicted number and it is an implied acknowledgement that when an individual is Baptized into SDA church that he believes the writings of Ellen G White. Just think Seek if only 6 out of 10 SDA members believeing entirely upon Ellen G White's writings would mean that the majority of SDA members hold to Ellen G White's visions and directions to the SDA church. I hope this doesn't offend you but through the Theory of Statistics it is easy to calculate and present a viable response to your question. | | |
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Hi Voice, I will take that as a no, you havent actually spoken to any SDA's or researched it at all, and what you are giving us is your opinion which is based on your misinterpretation of some statements Ellen White made. Im glad thats cleared up. God bless you Voice. Seek. |
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| | | Hi Voice, I will take that as a no, you havent actually spoken to any SDA's or researched it at all, and what you are giving us is your opinion which is based on your misinterpretation of some statements Ellen White made. Im glad thats cleared up. God bless you Voice. Seek. | | Seek, It is not I who has misinterpreted EGW writings. I have copied and pasted just as EGW had written. I gave a hypothetical answer to a question that you posed to me, albeit a supposition, yet well within the realm of possibility. There is no falsehood in supposition, the chances are 50/50 that I am right. Being as I see the glass half full I choose to believe therefore that most SDA believe and follow everyword EGW wrote. |
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bump for the other thread in relation. im not a SDA, but my "Take" on the subject is that there IS differance between Michael and Jesus the Christ. One being a creation, and the other being the Creator. Another is that angels *(are not supposed to) recieve worship, and Christ did. And that Jesus Christ did not have a problem 'rebuking' satan, and Micheal did not bring an 'accusation' against satan, but said "the Lord rebuke you" *(jude) One being called "Like God" and One "BEING God" is differant in itself also. |
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I agree Michael durst not , Jesus did . |
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Jesus did not accused the Pharisees but yet they felt accused.
No man will ever see God's face but yet all who believe in Jesus will see God.
the unforgivable sin is blaspheme of the Holy Spirit but yet God is always merciful to all who repent.
Only the truth (Jesus) can defeat a lie(satan) without ever lifting a finger. All the truth has to do is be itself and the lie has no chance against it. We can not read a text to know the truth. we need to read all the bible to know the truth. All the text together bring the truth to life.
for example, have you heard the story of the 6 blind men who each touched an elephant at separate time. and the story goes..... the first blind man touches the elephant by the trunk. He concludes that the elephant was a long and thick thing that bend easily and air came out of it. then the second, tough the tail and said that it was not long and it was not think either but it bend very easily. the third touched a side of the body. He totally disagree with the others. He said that it was big and firm and more of a flat surface. the fourth, touch a tusk and disagree with the other 3 since to him it was hard and pointy. the fifth had a complete idea since he touched a leg. to him, it was firm but not flat, was long but no air came out of it. and it did not bend. The sixth and last put his hand in the elephant's mouth. since it was open all he could say was that it was like a wet whole that had something that moved.
it all describes the elephant but not one description makes the whole elephant.
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Hi Love to obey! We haven’t talked for a while but is nice to talk again. I think most people posting here have read the Bible; but if not, we can assume that those who have, will use scripture to help correct weak doctrine. If the elephant story you project is relevant, it seems to me to imply that those who don’t "get it", have only touched one aspect of the Word and are missing the whole picture, and therefore can’t understand the clear statements made in the Bible. If you know the whole story on how Jesus is Michael I am all ears! I’d like to counter that and say, let the clear statements of scripture dictate our belief. The Bible says Michael (the archangel) did not dare rebuke satan. Jesus did: see Matt 8:29, and also gave Spirit filled believers power to do likewise! (In His Name). See Matt 10:8 When we were created, God gave man dominion on earth. That was restored to all believers in Jesus when the Holy Spirit came. God Bless Love-n-Grace |
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there was 1 angel that wanted worship , and he got in a lot of trouble. |
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LovenGrace
Exactly my friend.
it takes a second for us to know Jesus but a lifetime to know who Jesus is. |
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