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I hope that this will be a study thread that brings much light to all who participate! I have found a great deal of peace and comfort from the study of this topic! I have lost many loved ones and knowing the Truth, as presented in Scripture, brings me a great deal of hope, regarding the state of the dead, Heaven, and Hell. These verses and comments come from the book entitled, "Studying Together" by Mark Finley. (John 11:11-14) Jesus compares death to sleep. The Bible compares death to sleep over 50 times! (1 Thessalonians 4:15,16) Those asleep in Jesus rise at His Second coming. (John 5:28,29) There are two resurrections (life and death) (Genesis 2:7) God create man out of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living sould. God did not put a soul into man. (Ecclesiastes 12:7) the body returns to the dust and the Spirit returns to God. The Bible does not say the soul returns to God, but the Spirit. (Job 27:3) The Spirit is the same as God's breath of life or His power. (Psalm 146:3,4) When the breath of Spirit returns to God, the thoughts perish. (1 Timothy 6:16) Human beings do not have immortality, only God does. (Romans 2:7) We seek for immortality. The Bible uses the word soul 1600 times, but never once uses immortal soul. (1 Corinthians 15:51-54) We receive immortality when Jesus comes again. (Psalm 115:17) The dead do not praise God. (Acts 2:34) David did not ascend to heaven at death, but awaited the coming of Jesus and the first resurrection. (Psalm 6:5) In the grave there is no remembrance of God. (Ecclesiastes 9:5) The dead do not know anything. (Job 19: 25,26) The righteous will be resurrected to see God at the Last day. (Ezekiel 18:4) The soul [person] who sins will die! (Romans 6:23) The wages of sin is death. Death is the absence of life. The gift of God is eternal life. (1 Timothy 4:7,8) The apostle Paul awaited the coming of the Lord for his final reward. (Revelation 22:12) When Jesus comes His reward of eternal life will be with Him. |
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Yo, that's why our Lord used these types of illustrations. To help us hard-headed folks to understand His Word better! I am very glad for this, because I used to be a lot more confused about issues surrounding death and the end times. Praise God for understanding us fragile humans! Carol-Rose |
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Yo,
You are misquoting Paul's statement. Paul's wish was to be with the Lord now so in that context he said,"better to be absent from the body and present with the Lord". But where is Paul's spirit or as some like to call it soul? If Paul is dead then his spirit went back to God. The grave does not kill the spirit because every spirit belongs to God and God is not the God of the Dead but of the Living. So your analogy of death being a gain has no credence. How can we upon death give back to God something He already owns that being our spirit or as some like to call it our soul? Your hypothesis is flawed. You need to seek out a 50 dayer and rethink what the 50's think they know.
2 Corinthians 5
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Charles Ferguson
EarthLink Revolves Around You.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 4/21/2006 4:26:54 PM
Subject: Re: So, what happens when we die?
So, what happens when we die?
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| From: Pinkmarmaladecat |
Again, I choose to quote from Mark Finley's book: Studying Together:
What does Paul mean by the expression "absent from the body and present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:6,8)?
In 2 Cor. 5:1-11, Paul contrasts the earthly perishable body subject to sickness, diseases, and death with the glorious, eternal, immortal body which God has prepared for us in the heavens. The expression "absent from the body" means absent from the mortal body with its earthly infirmities. the expression present with the Lord means present in the glorious immortal body received at Jesus' second coming. 2 Corinthians 5:4 gives us a clue when the apostle longs for "mortality to be swallowed up of life." These words echo the words Paul wrote earlier in 1 Cor. 15:51-54, "we shall put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality." In 2 Cor 5 as well as 1 Cor. 15, Paul longs for the immortality bestowed at Jesus' Second Coming (See also 2 Timothy 4:6-8).
This is also how my grandparents (Pentecostal ministers and missionaries) explained this particular passage to me.
Doesn't Paul imply that an individual goes directly to heaven at death by stating hthat he "desires to depart and be with Christ" and "death is gain" (Phil. 1:21,23)?
The Bible does not contradict itself. Paul doesn't state one thing in one place and another someplace else. The apostle is clear. At the Second Coming of Jesus, the righteous dead are resurrected to receive their eternal reward (1 Thess. 4:16,17; 1 Cor. 15:51-54) In Phil. 3:20,21 the apostle points out that "our citizenship is in heaven from whence also we look for the Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ who shall change ouor vile body that it might be fashioed like His glorious body." Again his desire is the Second Coming of our Lord. Writing to his friend, Timothy, the apostle declares from this same Roman prison, "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing" (2 Tim. 4:7,8). Paul longed for the return of Jesus when he would see his Lord face to face and be ushered into eternity. Yes, death is gain! For the apostly it meant freedom from the pain of a weary body, deliverance from the bondage of a Roman prison, and security from the temptation of Satan. To Paul, death was a sleep with no passage of time. The next even after closing his eyes in the sleep of death was "to depart and be with Christ." Sionce there is no conscious passage of time from death to the Second Coming, for Paul, death meant closing his eyes in sleep and waking up to be with His Lord. | |
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Hi Carol-Rose I agree with you when you say "the Bible does not contadict itself". That is the very thing that got me digging in the first place. There is no contradiction in the above quoted texts if the spirit goes to be with the Lord, and the body awaits the second comming. Actually that is the only way those 2 texts dont contradict each other. That is why I say it is critical to understand what spirit really is. If it is only breath we have a whole lot of contradictions in the Word of God. God bless Love-n-Grace |
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Hiya Grace, I totally agree we need to fully understand the meaning of the word "spirit" or it can be confusing, its actual meaning does change depending on who and why they are using it. The breath of God is only one use for the word, and to me this is a topic that really does require looking at the Hebrew and Greek to get the EXACT meaning of the words they used. We also need to be careful to also look at the context of the passage which can give us the meaning and looking at the culture of the day, what did they generally believe also sheads light on what the word "spirit" means. God bless you, Seek. |
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If our 'spirit' goes to either Heaven or Hell immediately upon our demise, what is the use of the resurrection? Why would God send us back into our bodies, no matter that they are refreshed into immortality, if we...our very basic selves...are already with Him? There would be no need to be resurrected. The teaching that we HAVE souls as opposed to us BEING souls, only creates confusion in the minds of people. There is no need for a soul to be going back and forth between Heaven/Hell and earth. Our departed loved ones have no knowledge or thoughts of good and evil, for they lie asleep in the grave until our Lord's return. "For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing. And they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in anything under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 NKJV This verse is clear and succinct on the whole subject, wouldn't you say? Psalm 146:4 declares "His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; in that very day his plans perish." "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day....For David did not ascend into the heavens..." Acts 2:29,39a Peter knew full well that the human spirit is merely the life force that was first breathed into Adam and Even and thus passed on from generation to generation. He knew that we have no souls or spirits, but that we are living persons...souls. And David looked forward to the resurrection, to see God face to face. He didn't anticipate death as a means to see God all the sooner: "As for me, I will see Your face in righteousness; I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness." Psalm 17:15 Paul wrote this about the resurrection: "For the Lord Himself will descend from the heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."Acts1 Thess.4:16,17. Paul wouldn't have been so excited about the resurrection, if he believed he would see God in Heaven immediately upon His death. The dead in Christ rise first, because they've been asleep and waiting for Him, longer than those of us who are still alive at His coming. "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." John 5: 28,29 These are the words of Christ, Himself. He speaks of the two resurrections...which would not be necessary if we went immediately to Heaven or Hell when we die. How cruel it would be for the Father to remove those suffering in Hell, put them back in their earthly bodies for a time, and then destroy them again! What torture that would be! No mercy is to be found in such a train of thought, and our God is merciful indeed! Finally, John 6:40 says this: "And this is the will of Him who sent me, that everyone who sses the son and believes in Him may h ave everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." Again, there'd be no need of a resurrection if we were already in Heaven or Hell.
Scripture is very plain on this matter. Once we're dead, that's it until the Lord returns. That's when we receive our reward or punishment. Not before. (See: "And they have no more reward," Ecclesiastes 9:5,6)
Carol-Rose |
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Yo,
I to in rare agreement am in accord that we take the word in context of the day. Notice that heart is used throughout the bible, back in the day the belief was that the heart brought the mind understanding or basically ruled the mind. In the scientific world today we know that if we did not have a mind ie; brain that the body can not and will not function due to the fact it is the mind that controls all aspects of the body all the way down to the spark generated to make the heart beat.
Charles Ferguson
EarthLink Revolves Around You.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 4/24/2006 7:11:36 AM
Subject: Re: So, what happens when we die?
So, what happens when we die?
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| From: 2EdgeSword |
Hiya Grace,
I totally agree we need to fully understand the meaning of the word "spirit" or it can be confusing, its actual meaning does change depending on who and why they are using it. The breath of God is only one use for the word, and to me this is a topic that really does require looking at the Hebrew and Greek to get the EXACT meaning of the words they used. We also need to be careful to also look at the context of the passage which can give us the meaning and looking at the culture of the day, what did they generally believe also sheads light on what the word "spirit" means.
God bless you,
Seek. | |
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"I to in rare agreement..." Voice, you're too much! LOL!!!!   |
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Hi Carol Rose! Thanks for the good post! It is a good arguement I agree, so good I believed it all my life as well . I am very interested in the quotes from Ecc 9. Are you willing to accept everything Soloman says there? Context is a very basic concept of understanding scripture .Let's look at what he says: Ecc 9:1-6 N.A.S. "For I have taken all this to my heart and explain it that righteous men, wise men, and their deeds are in the hands of God. Man does not know if it will be love or hatred; anything awaits him. It is the same for all. There is one fate for the righteous and for the wicked; for the good, for the clean , and for the unclean; for the man who offers a sacrifice,and for the man who does not sacrifice. As the good man is, so is the sinner; as the swearer is, so is the one who is afraid to swear. This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore , the hearts of the sons of man are evil, and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead. For whoever is joined with the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. Indeed their love,their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun" I dont personaly think Soloman understood salvation and the new covenant rebirth. neither did Jesus own apostles till later. Do you accept that when you die you "no longer have any reward"? or are you saved by the Blood of Jesus and expect a reward? You are missing the gospel fact of the rebirth (of Spirit) that neither Soloman or Nicodemus saw either, living in the old covenant. Do not attempt to "proof text" out of the old covenant, to explain things that changed radically at the cross, and the resurrection of our Lord You sing it in church  "Born of His Spirit, washed in His Blood" What do you think happened when you were born again? Blessings Love-n Grace |
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Hi L & G, Excellent points! I have also been concerned with the fact that the theological statement that seems to be quoted as God's position on the matter is, "For the living know they will die; but the dead know nothing" and the last part is almost always left out of literature using this as an example of what happens when we die. Even Carol Rose's quote in message #1 of this thread has it that way, but I was glad (and surprised) to see the whole verse mentioned by her in the later post. It is worth discussing, because how can you only believe the first half of the verse is pure fact from God, simply stated, while the second half of the verse has to be rationalized away? Sometimes we view the Bible as a single book written at one time by one author, when it is really written over centuries by various inspired authors. Belief in the afterlife and associated theology has changed dramatically since Moses' time. Other than a sometimes ill-defined concept of sheol, there is very little in the way of theology about what happens after we die in the OT. Many Jews today still do not believe in an afterlife, but that we receive our reward in this life. Look at the differences between the sadducees and the pharisees during the time of Jesus. The sadducees did not believe in afterlife or immortality of the soul, since there was no basis for it in Mosaic law. The pharisees believed in a resurrection of the body and immortality of the soul. The theology of life after death and the resurrection was something that evolved over time for the Jewish people, and they also wrestled with this question. I know Carol Rose and I differ on this, but I believe that a valid case can be made either way from the Bible on this issue. To be honest, it doesn't matter which is correct to me. I will live for Jesus, die, and be with Him - the rest is process! In Christ, Bill |
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Hi Bill! Thanks for your interesting insights! You are correct that the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection or immortality of the soul. It is also an interesting note, that is was the Sadducees that Jesus said were in error. ( see Matt. 22:23-33.) Vs.32 says" I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Issac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead but of the living." Hmm. I believe there is another aspect to this as well . The teachers and scholars of Israel commonly read many "apocrypha books", and speak so matter of factly about the things contained in them, (such as the state of the dead) as if it was common knowledge to them all; in the same way that we refer to our Scriptures today. (ie. Jude vs 9, where it talks about Michael and the devil fighting over Moses body, and vs 14 and 15 where Jude quotes Enoch). The book of Enoch is an interesting read. (Better than Star Trek, lol) . I agree also with your last statement that I will live,die and be with Christ, and the rest is merely process. If my current view is wrong I won't be too upset; and I already know how I will feel, because at present I feel I was wrong all my life LOL. God Bless you! Love-n-Grace |
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| | From:  SailedT | Sent: 5/15/2006 10:55 PM |
That quote in message twenty-three from Pinkmarmelade on Psalms 146:4 really helps me!...our little brute beasts don't have the planning capabilities entrusted in man....and in my readings of the Psalms, God does send forth His Spirit and renews the face of the earth... Blessings (-___-) |
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Hi could you explain a little further how that text helps you ? Thanks and Blessings ! Love-n -Grace |
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<bump> Prior discussion on state of the dead and the nature of the soul. |
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yea I remember that ! Thanks Bill! Pink Marmalade Cat goes back awhile! |
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