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DEBATE BOARD : Head coverd
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Reply
 Message 1 of 22 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameBible-Gazer  (Original Message)Sent: 7/5/2008 6:57 PM
1Cor.11:4  Every man praying or prophesying, having [his] head covered, dishonoureth his head.
 
 
What kind of covering ?
 


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Reply
 Message 8 of 22 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameBible-GazerSent: 7/6/2008 5:42 PM
Try a different kind of covering.
 
Not hat or hair.
 

Reply
 Message 9 of 22 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameSissa�?Sent: 7/7/2008 5:57 AM
 
Here is the whole Chapter of
 
1st Corinthians Chapter 11. King James Version~
 
Love sissa~
 
 

Reply
 Message 10 of 22 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameBible-GazerSent: 7/7/2008 12:33 PM
3  But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ;
and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God
 
4  Every man praying or prophesying, having [his] head covered, dishonoureth his head.
 
Paul is using a family plan to show God's authority with the church.
 
God is the Head over Jesus
Jesus is the Head over the Man - Ministry
Man is the Head over the woman - church
 
government order
 
 
The woman(church) cannot operate right without a minister.
she is uncovered.
 
The man(minister) cannot have a
man
committee
congergation
organization
or woman(church)
To cover his head =  he must have Jesus as his head.
 
Otherwise the man is really to bald.
no covering = no hair
 
 

Reply
 Message 11 of 22 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameGiantslayaSent: 7/7/2008 5:20 PM
and the Bible says......
 1 Cor 11:15
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

  So if a women's long hair is her covering....then a man's hair is also his covering but it is not given to him as his glory and so must be maintained as stated in the prior verse....
 
1 Cor 11:14
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
 
                and then Paul said if anybody wants to argue with that....he doesn't recognize it and neither does the church es of God .....
  1 Cor11:16
16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.
                                Plain and Simple Bible......


Reply
 Message 12 of 22 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameIchmoSent: 7/7/2008 6:35 PM
Shalom group

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, and like the chain, a society is only as strong as its basic element. The basic element for any civilization is the family. Without a proper family structure the culture will collapse like a house built on sand.

Yahvah in His great wisdom realized that to be strong and unified the family must have a leader �?a person who will take responsibility for the physical and spiritual welfare of that family. Neither a family nor Yahvah’s assembly can function properly without a head, and Yahvah has chosen the husband to be that head in the family relationship.

In the beginning when Adam was created Yahvah saw that He was incomplete and needed a help mate, thus the creation of the first woman. From that point the relationship of husband and wife, as his helper, was defined.

Yahvah told Eve, "…Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you" (Gen. 3:16). Yahvah clearly says here that the man is to lead the family. Yahvah also emphasizes that the husband must love, respect, and care for his wife as if she were his own flesh. Spousal abuse is never warranted, either mentally or physically.

If this loving behavior �?ordained by Yahvah Himself �?were followed in all marriages, we would not see the discord, heartache, and broken homes that plague our culture today. The husband and wife are each given a special role to fill and they will find happiness by meeting Yahvah’s expectations for each of them.

In the Scriptures a token sign of this sacred relationship is the veil or headcovering. In ancient times it was customary for the woman to have her head covered. This physical concealment of the hair was a sign of love and respect for her husband.

Paul wrote, "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Messiah; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Messiah is Yahvah" (1Cor. 11:3).

Here, Yahvah extends His jurisdiction to this earth through His authority. The apostle explains the proper relationship ordained by Yahvah between the Father, His Son, man, and woman. Yahvah is the Head of His spiritual family, with His Son immediately under Him. Paul says that man and woman also have their appointed places in respect to this authority.

The Apostle shows that the man is subject to Messiah even while being head of the woman. That means that the man is to be governed by Yahvah’s laws in respect to his relationship with his wife. Peter writes that wives are to "be in subjection to your own husbands," 1Peter 3:1, and also that the man is to honor the wife "as unto the weaker vessel," 1Peter 3:7.

Proper Roles Through the Covering

Continuing in 1Corinthians 11, the word "head" denotes authority, which is Paul’s topic in verse 3. It is significant that this topic concerns the actual head as an object lesson in Biblical leadership.

Paul continues, "Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. But every woman that prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered" (1Cor. 11:4-6).

The man is not to have his head covered in a worship setting. To do so would misrepresent and confuse his proper role. On the other hand, being under the man’s authority the woman is to have her head veiled to show that distinction.

The word covered in verse 4, referring to the man’s covering, is from No. 2596, kata in the Greek. Thayer’s Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament says: "having his head covered." Clearly, the Greek word kata found in verse 4 refers to a physical veil or covering.

The word covered that refers to the woman in verse 6 is from another Greek word, which is derived from No. 2619, katakalupto, and is defined by Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance: "to cover wholly, i.e. a veil:�?cover, hide."

The two words that are used for our English word covered in verses 4 and 6 both carry the same meaning —to cover. However, when it pertains to the woman the Greek seems to be more precise when it defines a veil that covers her hair, hiding this natural covering which was given to her by Yahvah as a sign of beauty and power.

Recognized scholarship defines the substance of these verses in the following explanations:

�?Adam’s Clarke’s Commentary note on 1Corinthians 11:6 states, "For if the woman be not covered. If she will not wear a veil in the public assemblies, let her…be shorn �?let her carry a public badge of infamy; but if it be a shame �?if to be shorn or shaven would appear, as it must, a badge of infamy, then let her be covered �?let her by all means wear a veil."

�?The Harper Collins Study Bible note on 1Corinthians 11:5 reads, "Unveiled, or more generally ‘uncovered,�?perhaps with loose, flowing hair (typically associated with promiscuous women or priestesses of pagan cults)."

�?Jamieson Fausset and Brown Commentary on 1Corinthians 11:6 explains, "A woman’s hair is given her by nature, as her covering (vs. 15), to cut it off like a man, all admit would be indecorous: therefore, to put away the head-covering, too, like the man, would be similarly indecorous. It is natural to her to have long hair for her covering: she ought, therefore, to add the other (the wearing of the headcovering) to show that she does of her own will that which nature itself teaches she ought to do, in token of her subjection to man."

�?Barnes Notes commentary on 1Corinthians 11 says, "With her head uncovered. That is, with the veil removed which she usually wore. It would seem from this that the women removed their veils, and wore their hair dishevelled, when they pretended to be under the influence of divine inspiration. This was the case with the heathen priestesses; and in so doing, the�?women imitated them. On this account, if no other, Paul declares the impropriety of this conduct. It was, besides, a custom among ancient females, and one that was strictly enjoyed by the traditional laws of the Jews, that a woman should not appear in public unless she were veiled."

�?Finally, the Companion Bible note on verse 5 states, "If she discards the covering which is the symbol of her position, she may as well discard that which nature has given."

By voluntarily covering her hair during worship, a woman demonstrates her desire to comply with her special role toward her husband and to Yahvah. Not to do so would in effect be placing herself equal with her uncovered husband, which is forbidden by Yahvah.

The statement in verse 6, "but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered" is taken directly from the teachings of the Torah. In Deuteronomy 21 Yahvah explains that it was a dishonor to shave a woman’s hair and trim her nails, which Paul uses here to illustrate those women who refused to submit to their husband’s authority. This shows that the covering of the hair, which all women have by nature, is not what Paul is talking about in this chapter, but a covering placed willingly over the hair. He says that if she won’t do that, she may as well shave her head.

"For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of Elohim: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man" (1Cor. 11:7).

The Apostle reveals here why the man is not to cover his head. Paul says that man is created in Yahvah’s image, and because of that fact the man is not to wear a covering or veil. However, since the woman was created from the man and in man’s image she is to wear a veil to show that she is taken from man and is under his leadership.

Male Caps from the Pagan Greeks

The Jewish tradition of the male kepha or yarmulke derives from a heathen Greek custom of wearing a beanie-like cap in sports competitions (see 2Maccabees 4:10-13). Greek philosophers wore the hat of the pagan god Hermes to show they were educated, a custom still seen in the beanie under the tasseled mortarboard worn at graduation ceremonies.

In the Scriptures, the male headcovering was a sign of mourning, as seen in 2Samuel 15:30; 19:4, and Esther 6:12. Had the average man customarily worn headcoverings, the Scriptures would have no need to make special mention of it in these passages.

Man is to reflect the glory of Yahvah and the woman the glory of man. "Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels" (1Cor. 11:9-10).

Verse 9 reaffirms the fact that the woman came from man. Therefore, she is not only to have her head covered for her husband, but also for the angels. Some believe this speaks of the rebellious angels who refused to be subject to Yahvah’s authority and threw in with Satan, while others maintain that it refers to accepting the proper role Yahvah has given, just as do the angels in His hierarchy.

"Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in Yahvah. For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of Elohim" (1Cor. 11:11�?2).

Paul maintains that even though the woman is under the man’s authority, that both are equally dependent upon each other, and that without the other each would be incomplete. Even though the man has the leading role, Paul notes that the man is formed in the woman’s womb, and both are always subject to Yahvah in all things. Men are commanded to love their wives, Ephesians 5:25.

"Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto Yahvah uncovered?" (1Cor. 11:13). The word uncovered in the above passage is from the Greek, akatakaluptos (No. 177 in Strong’s) and is defined by Strong’s as "unveiled or uncovered." This Greek word akatakaluptos means to be physically uncovered, without a veil or headdress. Paul asks, is it right for a woman who is worshiping Yahvah to have her head uncovered? By Paul’s question we see that he certainly wanted to make known the importance for a woman to wear a veil while worshiping Yahvah.

Is Long Hair a Woman’s Covering?

The one concept that has not yet been examined is what a woman’s long hair represents. The majority of Biblical scholarship today will explain that long hair for a woman represents beauty and a gracefulness that Yahvah endowed her with upon the creation of Eve. Consider the following :

�?"Women’s hair was a common object of lust in antiquity, and in much of the eastern Mediterranean women were expected to cover their head" (The IVP Bible Background Commentary note at 1Corinthians 11).

�?"For a woman taking off her head covering in public and exposing her hair was a sign of loose morals and sexual promiscuity" (The NIV Study Bible note at 1Corinthians 11:5).

From the biblical sources above we find that a woman’s long hair represents beauty, and by not wearing a headdress she is placing her beauty, or the power which Yahvah has given her through that natural covering, over her husband. She would essentially be placing her authority if not over, then equal to her husband’s.

Yahvah has given long hair to a woman as a thing of beauty. By refusing to hide that beauty in a worship setting she is outshining her husband, which is not permissible in Yahvah’s Word.

"Does not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering" (1Cor. 11:14-15).

Paul is admonishing the Corinthian men here not to have long hair, because such was intended naturally for the woman. This word covering does not mean a physical covering and cannot replace the added covering that the woman is commanded to wear while praying or prophesying. The word covering in verse 15 is from the Greek peribolaion (Strong’s No. 4018), and is defined by Strong’s as "something thrown around one, i.e. a mantle or veil." The difference between the covering mentioned in verse 6 and here in verse 15 is that the covering in verse 6 is not a natural covering from Yahvah, but a man-made

object used to cover the head. The covering in verse 15, which is a natural covering that frames the face and serves to enhance the woman’s beauty, is not a man-made covering, but one given by Yahvah. Notice the following comments on verse 15:

"Long hair is given to her as a covering. This is not the same word as that used in verses 5-6. The point here is that as the hair represents the proper covering in the natural realm, so the veil is the proper covering in the religious" (Ryrie Study Bible note at 1Cor. 11:15).

"Her hair…for a covering �?Not that she does not need additional covering. Nay, her long hair shows she ought to cover her head as much as possible. The will ought to accord with nature" (Jamieson Fausset and Brown Commentary note at 1Cor. 11:15).

Reasons Women Are to Be Covered

Dake’s Annotated Reference Bible note at 1Corinthians 11 gives the following reasons, some historical, that a woman is to be covered in worship:

�?"It has been the custom for ages for women to be veiled (Gen. 24:65; 38:14, 19; Ruth 3:15; Isa. 3:23).

�?"It was a Jewish law that no woman be seen in public unveiled. Among Greeks, Romans, and other nations it was also the custom.

�?"Only public prostitutes in the East went without veils, hence to pray or prophesy without a veil would be identifying [True Worship] with harlotry.

�?"If a woman appeared in public without a veil she would disgrace her head �?the husband. It would be the same as women who had their hair shorn off as punishment for whoredom and adultery.

�?"The man was not to wear a veil because he was the image and glory of [Yahvah]. The women needed one because she is the glory of the man being created for him. The woman needed to wear her veil on her head as a sign of her husband’s power over her�?/P>

�?"The woman needed to cooperate fully with the husband and keep the customs as being equally blessed of [Yahvah].

�?"It was becoming for a woman …to be veiled and not common for a [righteous] woman to pray or prophesy unveiled. That would make her like the heathen priestesses who prayed and delivered the oracles bareheaded or with dishevelled hair.

�?"It was natural for women to have long hair, thus indicating they should be veiled."

In today’s society that is being driven in many respects by the liberation movement, the concept of the headcovering may seem out of place. Yet, only 40 years ago it was not considered out of place by devout worshipers who understood the significance of the headcovering in worship. As a people called out for the hope of becoming a kingdom of priests, we conform to a higher calling, Revelation 5:10. We submit to the One we worship with the hope that we would be pleasing to Him.

Paul wrote that when it comes to True Worship, we must not let the world, its ways or customs dictate how we will honor Yahvah: "I entreat you, then, Brothers, by the mercies of [Elohim], to offer your bodies as a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to Elohim, for this is your rational worship. Do not conform to the fashion of this world; but be transformed by the complete change that has come over your minds, so that you may discern what [Elohim’s] will is �?all that is good, acceptable, and perfect," Romans 12:1-2, The Twentieth Century New Testament (TCNT).

Paul completes his discourse on the headcovering in 1Corinthians 11 by enjoining: "If, however, any one still thinks it right to contest the point �?well, we have no such custom, nor have the [Assemblies of Yahvah]" (TCNT).

Neither do we. Our desire as Yahvah’s people is to honor Him in all things, putting our own interests and wants secondary regardless of whether it may conflict with popular practice or social dictate. In so doing, we show our humility and willingness to conform to Yahvah’s Word, while resting in the assurance that He will honor our worship.

Either the bible is for all generations and cultures, or for none.

Shalom


Reply
 Message 13 of 22 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameBible-GazerSent: 7/7/2008 6:48 PM
1 Cor 11:14
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
By natural nature,  the man can grow long hair as a woman can by nature.
 
God did not create short hair by nature for a man.
 
If there be any contention there is no such law in the church. v.16
 
 
 
 
 

Reply
 Message 14 of 22 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameGiantslayaSent: 7/7/2008 6:57 PM
By natural nature,  the man can grow long hair as a woman can by nature.
 
THATS WHY MEN CUT THEIRS AND WOMEN LET THEIRS GROW...TO FULFILL SCRIPTURE.LONG HAIR ON WOMEN AND SHORT OR CUT HAIR ON MEN........

Reply
 Message 15 of 22 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamerapssonSent: 7/8/2008 12:53 AM
Again, short hair on men is totally dependant on the social context.  I don't think men of Jesus' time went around with a number 1 or 2 buzz cut....
I think the point is that in biblical times a man should have hair that is shorter than a typical woman's hair.

Reply
 Message 16 of 22 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameSkyangel�?/nobr>Sent: 7/8/2008 1:57 AM
Nazarite men who were dedicated to the Lord never cut their hair. Their long hair was a sign of submission to God.
 
Num 6:5 All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no razor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth [himself] unto the LORD, he shall be holy, [and] shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow.
 
Jdg 13:5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.
 
1Sa 1:11 And she vowed a vow, and said, O LORD of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto the LORD all the days of his life, and there shall no razor come upon his head.
 
 
 
 

Reply
 Message 17 of 22 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameSissa�?Sent: 7/8/2008 2:22 AM
KING JAMES VERSION
1 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 3~4
 
3     But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4     Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

Reply
 Message 18 of 22 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamerapssonSent: 7/8/2008 5:02 AM
Who are called to be Nazarite's today?

Reply
 Message 19 of 22 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameSkyangel�?/nobr>Sent: 7/8/2008 12:43 PM
 Nazarites

Reply
 Message 20 of 22 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameBible-GazerSent: 7/8/2008 10:18 PM
A woman could become a Nazarite also.
Number 6:2  Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them,
either man or woman shall separate [themselves] to vow a vow of a Nazarite,
to separate [themselves] unto the LORD:
 
When the Nazartie completed their vows they were to cut their hair and burn it at the altar. 6:18
 
Including women.
 

Reply
 Message 21 of 22 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameKeewaweeSent: 7/12/2008 2:05 PM
Hummm !!!!!!
 
Covering:
Hair
Hat
No hair
shorn your head
glory head for women = long hair power
glory head for men =  short hair power
how long is short or how short is long ?
 
 

Reply
 Message 22 of 22 in Discussion 
From: Bro GinderSent: 7/12/2008 2:36 PM
I believe the Word is very simple and to the point.  Not sure where some of the stuff I have read here comes from but its clearly not supported with any other scripture.  Some of it is but some of it is not.  I have always been taught that scripture interp scripture. 
 
The covering I find he is referring to is anything aside from the natural.  Jesus is our head and nothing should be between the creator and the created when in prayer.  Come on we excersize that in social setting now.  How many enter in a place to eat and leave a hat on your head?  Or enter a place of business and conduct business with a hat on your head?  Unless you sell hats its probably not a good idea.
 
The covering of the woman says for it to be long.  As I studied out the meaning I find long translated to uncut. So no matter the actual length it was to be uncut. It was given as a covering, and her glory.
 
As far as the man goes.  It says not long hair.  Meaning it needed to be cut.  One would have a difficult time preaching shoulder length hair is a sin for a man.  I would consider this as I have studied many scriptures on this subject.  The Word of God also says it is a sin for man to be effimenate(sp).  So not only in garment, but in actions and appearance as well.  Just a thought for you to consider as we apply scripture we should apply all scripture.
 
Through our this discussions there have been things said that are not BIBLICAL and certainly not supported by scripture.  Please seek the Word for yourself, but do not rely on yourself for understanding.  Seek an annointing from GOd for revelation of His Word to you.
 
It is important to know only knowledge scripture, but to KNOW it as well.  There is a diffrence.  You can not learn scripture it must be revealed to you.  Seek a higher understanding of the scripture as GOd reveals His Word to you as he truly wants to.
 
Anyway, thanks for the discussion. 
 
God Bless

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