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DEBATE BOARD : DO YOU BELIEVE IN TITHING???
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Reply
 Message 1 of 47 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameBro_Bryan  (Original Message)Sent: 7/11/2008 9:14 PM
 
Is tithing still for the Church today?
 
Do you tithe off the gross or net?
 
Do you tithe on your income tax refund?
 
Is tithing essential to salvation?


First  Previous  33-47 of 47  Next  Last 
Reply
 Message 33 of 47 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameDAIZY190Sent: 7/14/2008 6:22 PM
I don't believe in tithing, but my church do, but I believe that if I want to put it in the offering I will, and if I feel that someone is in needed I will give the money to them...but I don't think that the tithing is for the church, especially the church I go to where I don't a church built...Love in Christ Daizy

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 Message 34 of 47 in Discussion 
From: Capstone39Sent: 7/14/2008 6:37 PM
Tithing is unto the Lord and yes it goes to finance the church and particular salaries.
 
its biblical
 
Tithes are not to be dispersed based on how you feel they should be dispersed
 
for giving the bible states tithes, offerings, and alms 
 
if one is in need u need to provide them with alms (money)
 
Dont touch the holy thing. (the tithe)
 
you are cursed with a curse when you do that

Reply
 Message 35 of 47 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameDAIZY190Sent: 7/15/2008 1:56 AM
In order to believe what you said Capstone we need scriptures that tells us what you said in post #34...Love in Christ Daizy

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 Message 36 of 47 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameMinisterBTSent: 7/15/2008 2:09 AM
Post #30 -- I usually don't just make it a tenth.  Here I was just responding to the question of tithing.  How much else I give the church for other things is between me, the church, and God.  Don't think you need to be in on it.

Reply
 Message 37 of 47 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamerapssonSent: 7/15/2008 2:38 AM
i give a free will offering and do not strictly offer a tenth of my income.

Reply
 Message 38 of 47 in Discussion 
From: trishaSent: 7/20/2008 3:54 AM
Boy oh boy....Titheing  and offerings should be a part of worship.. and a pentecostal handshake goes a long way.....  lol

Reply
 Message 39 of 47 in Discussion 
From: trishaSent: 7/20/2008 3:57 AM
I tithe...My money...my time in prayer...my time in the word...my time in worship I am not obssesive,  I may spend more time one way or the other yet when things get hectic I need to discipline my flesh.

Reply
 Message 40 of 47 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameKiki40Sent: 7/20/2008 5:53 AM
Amen! Trisha.  38.
 
As a bible quiz coach, I used to teach my quizzers that the time they spend in their dedication to quiz ministry could be looked upon as a form of tithing. If they would just make devotion to the study regimine recommended a priority in their time schedule, they would discover that their time for everything else would be plenty sufficient. I was taught that the underlying principle behind tithing is that it expresses where God stands in relation to everything else in your life. Once you are able to recognize that it is God that "worketh in you to will and do of His good pleasure" (Philip. 4:13), it becomes quite easy to take your hands off of the things that God has put into them and give His "token amount" back to Him. He somehow multiplies whatever you give Him cheerfully and makes it enough plus some. Those who clutch at it as though they have the right to say how it is spent have a tendency to never have enough of it.

Reply
 Message 41 of 47 in Discussion 
From: trishaSent: 7/20/2008 6:37 PM
I learned, sometimes the hard way, that it all is His;.even a job in which he gave me the know how and talent to do that job.  I very rarely ever wanted for much and some things needed came at the twelfth hour but they came.
to give out of obedience as well with a heart of worship feels great.
There were those times where I would say "Are you sure Lord"  LOL and I know it was him
Jesus should be getting firstfruits all the time...AMEN

Reply
 Message 42 of 47 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamerapssonSent: 7/21/2008 6:27 AM
Out of curiosity...where should your 'tithe' go if you don't belong to a Church?

Reply
 Message 43 of 47 in Discussion 
From: trishaSent: 7/21/2008 8:03 AM
I have found that a good church who ministers the truth without reservation or to the person whom you are accountable to. But that is a question to bring before the throneroom of God for yourself.
I use to go to a bible study and in between churches in the late 70's I gave my tithe there.
The bible teacher is now a wonderful messianic pastor.

Reply
 Message 44 of 47 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknameus59pizzaSent: 7/21/2008 9:14 AM
 
 

Exodus 20:4

Forum
               2008-07-07 12:08:09 by Uncle Steve

Tithin

s
Tithes, a tenth of the land's crops production, were property of the Lord, to be used for the widows, the fatherless, and the stranger in the land - not just for the priests' sole usage. Tithes were supposed to be stored in a place commanded by God, to relieve those in need as well as to rejoice, when the families and servants of the contributors were to eat in celebration from the tithed foods, together with the priests. The priesthood of Aaron and the sons of Levi, which had commandments to take tithes from the people, died with Christ's sacrifice of himself, establishing Christ as the everlasting priest of an everlasting priesthood. So tithing died when the old priesthood died, when the Law died. Anyone who takes tithes is a false prophet, antichrist, and a deceiver; and anyone who continues to pay tithes is denying Christ's priesthood; both are subject to God's condemnation. Tithing died with the Levitical priesthood; the only places tithing is referenced in the New Testament is the claim of the self-righteous Pharisee, and the explanation of its death in Hebrews. The Apostle Paul instructed people to set aside funds from their excess, but that was to relieve the poor, particularly the large numbers of poor brethren in Jerusalem. Relieving the poor does not include supporting self-appointed pastors or to maintain an uncommanded temple or building. Jesus, Paul, and Peter all denied those who solicited money for preaching; and as Christ instructed his disciples: Freely (without pay) you have received, freely (without charge) "give. Mat 10:8. Here are the many fallacies of tithes: The Levitical priesthood is the only priesthood to be commanded by God to collect a tenth of the product of the land. Priesthoods before or after had no such command. To be a priest to collect tithes, you had to be a descendant of Levi. (Note a related subject: The temple in Jerusalem was the only temple God ever wanted or commanded. Church buildings, cathedrals, and such monuments to man's pride are not wanted by God and contemptible in his sight, for the Most High does not dwell in houses and temples made with hands, Acts 7:48-9 He wishes to dwell in you with Christ in his glorious Kingdom - after you are purified. See Temple for More.) Land limits tithing to grain, cattle, oil, fruit, etc. - the product of the land. God had distributed the land to all Jewish tribes except the Levites; so a portion of the land's production was commanded for the Levites, and to provide for the poor. Tithes were collected by Levites priests only in a named place selected and specified by the Lord. Since the produce was food, the people were supposed to eat the food with their children, servants, and any Levites living within the boundaries of their lands, with thanksgiving and rejoicing to the Lord; and this celebratory thanksgiving meal was supposed to be eaten in a place specifically chosen by the Lord. After eating in celebration to the Lord, any excess was to be placed in a storehouse, location chosen by the Lord, to be distributed by the Levite to the stranger, the widow, and the fatherless - the provision for the relief of the poor. Money was not part of tithing - with one exception. If the distance to the location chosen by the Lord was too far to travel with the tithes of food, the food to be tithed was to be sold for money. Then the person was to travel to the location, with the money buy whatever food he particularly enjoyed, and then eat the food in celebration as in #4 above. MOST IMPORTANT: Christ eliminated and abolished the Levitical priesthood. He became the new priesthood. So the command given to the Levital priesthood was eliminated also. Christ eliminated tithing, just as he ended the ordinances and old covenant. Below is the scripture backup to this elimination of tithing: Hebrews 7: Begin Verse 1 This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, the name Melchizedek means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace." Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever. Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder! Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people—that is, from their kindred—even though their kindred are descended from Abraham. This man, [Melchizedeck] however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. And without doubt the lesser [Abraham] is blessed by the greater [Melchizedek]. In the one case, [Levites] the tenth is collected by those who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living [Melchizedek was forever alive, without natural mother of father, a similarity to Christ to come]. One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor. Jesus Like Melchizedek If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, [Christ] not in the order of Aaron? For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, [Christ did not come from Levi, rather Judah] and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. For it is declared: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek." The former regulation [including tithes ordered to be collected by the Levites,who as priests were abolished] is set aside because it was weak and useless (for it made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: 'You are a priest forever.' " Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant. [which replaces the old covenant and is everlasting] Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; [the former high priests, the Levites, with their tithes] but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, [the new high priest who abolishes the Levite priesthood] who has been made perfect forever. Hebrews 7: End Tithing died with Christ's resurrection. Christ is the new priest. Replacing the Levitical priesthood - for which tithes were commanded. To tithe is to deny Christ's priesthood. Any minister who asks for money, even other than tithing, is a false prophet and violating the commands of Jesus and Peter as echoed by Paul. But as Christians, we are called to be generous without a limitation of ten per cent to those in need, particularly the poor. This does not include a poor pastor who is asking for tithes; for to pretend he has such authority, either shows him to be an unqualified, ignorant, blind teacher - or worse, dishonest. In either case, you should disassociate yourself immediately with anyone trying to hold up tithing. And recognize that you will be condemned for supporting any such false ministry. Give to the poor not to religion; (ten percent is good, but give as much as you can to the poor), for more on this see Jesus Wants to Teach You Himself. Note: Thousands of 17th Century Quakers were fined and sent to jail for failure to pay tithes to the state-approved sects, assigned in geographic parishes. When a parish became available due to death of a priest, the state approved priests bid in auction for the ministry; considering the guaranteed revenue from the population of the parish. The punctuation, language, and grammar of the below writings have been updated to be more current to modern usage. The below writings are shown with several sections deleted because of repetition, complexity, and specific reference to severe persecutions suffered at the hand of the demanders of tithes. ______________________________________ That all might see WHO THEY WERE That had a command, and did pay tithes; and who They were that had a Law to receive them. And also, THEM THAT WITNESSED in Spirit and Life the Law fulfilled, the substance and end of the Law, and that priesthood that took tithes And likewise, These are here manifest that do take tithes, and have no command from GOD but contrary to the Law of GOD. That all people may see whom they were that did receive tithes, and who they were that paid them- George Fox Now all people, the priests of the world are shut from the first priesthood, which was called of God as Aaron was, they that were of the sons of Levi, that had the office of the priesthood, that had the Commandment to take tithes of their brethren, of the people according to the Law, Heb. 7. And said the Lord, 'all the tithes of the Land, whether of the seed of the Land, or the fruits of the trees, is the Lord's, it is holy unto the Lord.' Lev. 27:30. And said the Lord, the tithes of the Children of Israel, (mark) which they have offered for an heave-offering unto the Lord, I have given to the Levites to inherit it; therefore I have said unto him, among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance; therefore they were to have the tithes of the children of Israel; this the Lord gave them. And said the Lord, speak unto the Levites, and say unto them: When you take of the children of Israel the tithes, that which I have given you from them for an inheritance; (mark, this was the priests' inheritance, the Levites' inheritance) then he shall offer up an Heave-offering of it for the Lord, even of the tenth of the tithes. Now mark, the Levites' portion was the tithe which which they had from the Lord, and they were to offer out of their portion of tithes the tenth part of their tithes unto the Lord, and this also shall you offer, an heave-offering unto the Lord of all your tithes which you receive of the children of Israel. (Mark) The Levites and you shall give thereof the Lord's heave-offering to Aaron the priest, Numb. 18, which was to be a statute forever; and all the tithes of the land, whether of the seeds of the land, or the fruits of the trees, [because the land was God's who had distributed it; no money mentioned here. H.W. ], it is holy unto the Lord, and the Lord did give it to be the priests portion, with a commandment according to the law to take tithes, and if any man will redeem anything of his tithes, be shall add thereto a fifth part thereof, a heave-offering of the tithes, or of the flock, even of whatever passes under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the Lord, and this he gives to the priests for their inheritance, who were to pay the tenth part of it unto the Lord, Lev 27. They were to throw down their altars, break down their pillars, burn up their groves, hew down their graven images of their gods, and destroy their names out of the place; but unto the place which the Lord shall choose out of all your tribes, (mark) and put his name there, even unto his habitation shall you seek, and there shall you come, and there shall you bring your burnt-offerings and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and your heave-offerings in your hands, and your free-will-offerings, and the firstling of your herds, and of your flocks. Mark, where the place was that the Lord chose; not where men chose, and not to every priest's barn; for these places should be thrown down and rooted out, then there shall be a place which the Lord your God shall choose to have his Name to dwell there, there shall you bring all that I command you, your burnt-offerings, sacrifices, your tithes, and you shall rejoice before the Lord your God, you and your sons, and your daughters, and the man-servants and your maid-servants, and the Levite that within your gate, since he has no part of inheritance among you; but the place which the Lord shall choose, out of one of your tribes, (mark) one of the tribes, there shall you bring your burnt-offering, and there all that I command you; you may not eat within your gates the tithe of your corn, or of your wine, or of your oil, the first-born of your herd, or of your flock, or any of your vows that you have vowed, or of your free-will-offerings that you have offered, but you must eat them before the Lord your God in the place which the Lord your God should choose, you and your son and your daughter, and the Levite that is within your gate, that you may rejoice in the Lord your God before the Lord your God in all that you puts your hands to, Deut. 12. Take heed to yourself that you forsake not the Levites as long as you live upon the earth, you shall truly tithe all the increase of your seed that your field brings forth, year by year, and you shall eat before the Lord your God, where he has chosen to place his name, there the tithe of the corn, and of the wine, and of the oil, and the firstling of your herd, and of your flock, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always. And if the way be too far, so that you are not able to carry it to the place that the Lord your God should choose, and if the place be too far for you, which the Lord your God has chosen to set his Name there, when the Lord your God shall bless you, then you may turn it to money, and bind it in a bundle, and you shall change that in money into whatever [food] your soul desires after, and shall eat it before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice it in your hand, and go to the place which the Lord your God has chosen to set his Name there. This includes you and your household, and the Levite that is within your gate, you shall not forsake him; for he has no part nor inheritance with you; at the end of three years you shall bring all the tithes of your increase the same year, and lay it up within your gates, and the Levite, because he has no part nor inheritance with you, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow that are within your gates, shall come, eat, and be satisfied, that the Lord your God may bless you in all the works of your hands that you do. Now mark, the Levite and the stranger, the widow, the fatherless, these were to eat of the tithes; not only the Levite, but the fatherless, widow and the stranger, and the tithes were to be eaten within the gates, but the place which the Lord God did choose; now the sons might eat with the Levites of the tithes, your sons and your daughters, and your man-servant and your maid-servant, and thus they were to rejoice before the Lord their God; and the widow, and the stranger, and the fatherless, these were to eat as well as the Levite, and were to be filled, and to be satisfied, and to rejoice before the Lord God; for the tithes of the land is the Lord Gods: so he gives it to Levi; so Levi had a command to receive tithes of the people, of the children of Israel, as you may read in Deut., you shall rejoice in every good thing which the Lord your God has given you, and unto your house, mark, you and the Levite, and the stranger that is among you, when you have made an end of tithing all the tithes of your increase the third year, that is the year of tithing, (mark) the third year of tithing the tithes, and have given it to the Levite, and the stranger and the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within your gates, and be satisfied: Mark, here the stranger was to be satisfied, and the fatherless to be filled, and the widow to be filled, as well as the Levite; and then you shall say before the Lord your God, I have brought away the hallowed things out of my house, and I have given it to the Levite, and to the fatherless, and to the stranger, and to the widow, according to all your commandments, which you have commanded me; and I have not transgressed your commandment, Deu 26; neither have I forgotten them. Now you may see in Hebrews 7 how this commandment was annulled which they had to take tithes, and 2 Chr 31, see how Hezekiah and the people, who dwelled in Jerusalem, were to give the portion to the priests and Levites, that they might be encouraged in the law of God; and as soon as the commandment had gone abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance of the first fruits of the corn, and of the wine, and of the oil; and they brought in abundantly of all the increase of the field. And concerning the children of Israel, and Judah, they brought also of the tithes, of the oxen and sheep; the tithe of all the holy things, which was consecrated to the Lord their God, and laid them on heaps; and Hezekiah questioned with the priests and Levites concerning the heaps, and Azariah the chief priest of the house of Sadoc said: since the people began to bring the offerings into the house of the Lord, we have had enough to eat, (mark) and left plenty, for the Lord has blessed the people, that they have left great store. And Hezekiah commanded to prepare chambers in the house of the Lord, and they prepared them and brought in the offerings and the tithes, and the dedicated things faithfully, over which was Cononiah ruler, and Shimei was next. Mark, and take notice, here was a Levite that was ruler over the tithes, and here was a chamber to put the tithes and the offerings in, which was left, [any food, not eaten in the celebration] which was not eaten, and Core the son of Imnah the porter, was over the free-will-offering to distribute the oblations of the Lord, of the Holy things; here Levi the Levite who was the ruler over the chamber of the tithes, and the Levite, his portion was the tithes. And again, you may read Nehemiah, how they were to bring the first fruits of the ground, of all fruits, and of all trees year by year, into the house of God; also the first born of the sons and of the cattle, as it is written in the Law and the firstlings of the flock, and of our herd, to bring into the house of our God, unto the priests that ministers in the house of our God. And that we should bring the first fruits of our house, and of our offering of all manner of fruits of the trees, of wine, and of oil, unto the priest of the chamber of the house of our God, and the tithes of our ground unto the Levite, that the same Levites might have all the tithes of our cities, and the Levites and the priests, the sons of Aaron, should be with the Levites when the Levites took tithes, and the Levites should bring up the tithes of tithes; mark, here the Levite whose portion was the tithes, which all the Land was the Lord's, the Levite, the priest was here to bring the tithe of tithes unto the house of God, into the chamber, into the treasury-house. Mark, the tithes were to be brought chamber and treasury, and the Levites were to bring, and put their tithes of tithes for the children of Israel; and of Levi shall bring the corn and the wine into the Chamber, where are the vessels of of the sanctuary, where are the porters and the singers Nehemiah, 12. Some were appointed over the chambers for the treasures, for the offerings, for the first fruits, and tithes, to bring them in, out of the fields of the cities, the portion for the priests and Levites that waited; and before this Eliashib the priest had the oversight of the chamber, of the house of our God, and he had prepared for him a great chamber, Neh 13, where they laid the meat-offerings, the frankincense, the corn, and the wine, and the oil. Which was commanded to be given to the Levite and the singer, and the porter, and the offering of the priest. Here again you may see, Eliashib had the oversight over the chamber of the children of God, where the tithes to be distributed were ministered forth; and when Nehemiah perceived, that the portion of the Levites had not been given them, then Nehemiah contended with the rulers, in the place where they gathered them, as to why the house of God was forsaken. All Judah then brought the tithe of the corn, and the new wine, and the oil into the treasures and Shelamiha the priest was made-surers over the treasury. Mark, here was a priest made treasurer that ministered forth; and Zadok the scribe of the Levites, and others that were faithful, distributed to their brethren. Mark, here was a priest to distribute to others. And bring your sacrifices, every morning, and your tithes after three years, Amos 4 in this priesthood and covenant; they were to bring offerings and sacrifices, as well as tithes. He that pleads for the one, may plead for the other, you have robbed God; but you may say how have we robbed him, in tithes or offerings? Mark, all the tithes of the land were the Lord's, as you may read; and they were to bring the tithes into the storehouse, and Levi was to have the tithes, and pay the tithe of the tithes, out of the tithes. Those who did not bring the tithes of the land, which were the Lord's, but kept them back, these robbed God; they kept their offerings back, and their tithes; these robbed God of tithes and offerings. Therefore the Lord said, take notice, bring in all your tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in my house, and prove me now herewith, said the Lord of Hosts, if I will not open the windows of Heaven, and pour you forth a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. Now you may see, here was a store-house which the tithes were to be brought into, that there might be meat in the Lord's houses, and they were to trust the Lord, and he would rebuke the devourer. Mark, meat in his house; there were the tithes to be brought; and out of that were they to be ministered, as you may read in Nehemiah. A priest was set over them, and the widows, strangers and fatherless were to eat and rejoice with the priest and the Levite, as you may read. Now while God was robbed of his tithes and his offerings, they transgressed his ordinance; the ordinance, which the second priesthood blotted out; the ordinance of the first priesthood. Now they oppressed the hireling in his wages, and oppressed the widow and the fatherless, and turned the stranger from his right. For the stranger wanted his right; and the fatherless, and the widow wanted their right, while God was robbed of his tithes; for all the tithes of the land were the Lord's. The widow, and the fatherless, the stranger, and the servants, the man-servant and the maid-servant, and sons and daughters; these might all eat, and be filled, and satisfied, and rejoice before the Lord. For tithes were the Lord's, but these had not their right while God was robbed. Mark, and read Mal. 3. throughout. You may see in Mat 23, when Christ the second priesthood had come; how the first priesthood that took tithes, and the Scribes and the Pharisees, the hypocrites that paid tithes of mint and cumin, and had omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith; 'these ought you to have done, and not have left the other undone, '[mark] 'these things ought you to have done,' said Christ, they ought to have done judgment, and mercy, and faith, and not to have left their paying of tithes undone. Though they did them, and left the weightier matters undone; therefore said Christ, woe unto you blind guides, that strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Now take notice, those that held up the first covenant, and the first priesthood, and tithes, are out of the judgment, and mercy, and faith; these did not discern Christ the second priesthood, and the second covenant, the second priesthood, the everlasting priesthood, the second covenant, the everlasting covenant; to this they were only blind. He said, these things you ought to have done, mark, the word have, you ought to have done. There he showed the new covenant and priesthood in place; but being blind, they did not see him to be the end of the first priesthood, Mat 23. And he that said he fasted twice in the week, and gave tithes of all that he did possess, he was of the first priesthood, Christ told him, That the Publican was more justified then the other, which would not so much as lift up his eyes to heaven, but said, Lord be merciful to me a sinner, Luke 18. Now you may see, and take notice, and consider them, that priesthood that took tithes and paid tithes and offerings did not recognize Christ, the second priesthood, the everlasting offering. They knew Him not, who is the everlasting covenant. For had they seen him, they would have seen the end of the first covenant and priesthood that took tithes. In which first covenant there were ordinances and statutes to be taught the people; those ordinances and commandments did Christ blot out, triumphing over them. Mark, when a thing is blotted out, how can they read it? And was not tithes an ordinance of GOD to be paid? And were not tithes the Lord's, tithes of the LAND? And were not these Ordinances in the first COVENANT? And are not these ORDINANCES blotted out by the second covenant and priesthood? I challenge all the priests in the world to answer. And whether or not that priesthood has been changed that took tithes; and if the Law has been changed by which it was made, and if the ordinances are not blotted out which they taught, and their command to the people? And whether or not, that in the change of the priesthood the ordinance have not been changed? For, it was an ordinance, Mal. 3. and the maintenance given to the priesthood, and this witnessed with them that witnessed the second priesthood. And so whether or not all the hand-writing of the ordinances have been blotted out and triumphed over and blotted out; and if so, who can read them? And whether or not as I have said before, whether tithes were not ordinances of the first covenant; and whether or not that has been blotted out, and the commandment annulled? Answer all you that take tithes, or hold them up, or plead for them. And whether the Aaronnical priesthood has not been changed, which was called and ordained of God, and whether the Levitical priesthood has not been changed and no man takes this honor upon himself to offer gifts and sacrifices but he that is called of God as Aaron. And whether or not Christ was made a priest after the order of Aaron. Mark. Is not (as I said before) this priesthood changed, these offerings, these gifts, these sacrifices? Are not these ordinances, as said before, the hand-writing blotted out, and trampled over by Christ? And is not the Levitical priesthood changed, that took their tithes and their ordinances and commandments, by which they took their tithes. Now when the Apostle had spoken of this Call of Aaron, and no priests took upon them that honor to offer gifts and sacrifices but he that was called of God, as Aaron was the priest; and when the Apostle had spoken this, so he said of Aaron's call of God, and the rest, who was to do his services, his sacrifices, his commands, his ordinances, and was called of God to do them, and his statutes, which was to have their time; so said the Apostle also of Christ, glorified not himself to be made a high-priest, but he that said unto him, you are my Son, this day have I begotten you. [Mark] Here is the everlasting priest, the begotten of the Father who offered up himself by the eternal Spirit. Now none took the honor to himself to offer in the first covenant (the priesthood) but such priests as was called of God, as Aaron was. Now Jesus Christ, the second priesthood, was not made a priest after the Order of Aaron, but of the Order of Melchizedeck, the begotten of the Father; has he not blotted out all these ordinances and offices of the priests, of Levi, or Aaron, which was commanded of God to do them? Are not the ordinances blotted out? Yes or No? Or has not Christ blotted them out, and not triumphed over them? Yes or no? Answer whether tithes were not a hand-writing of these ordinances. And after that Abraham had returned from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, which had taken away Lot, his Brothers son, which he brought back, and brought again his Brother, and all his goods, and the women, and also the people; Melchizedek brought him bread and wine, and he was the priest of the most high God; and he blessed Abraham, and said: Blessed be the most High God, who has delivered you out of your enemies hand; and he gave him tithes of all. [Mark] this was when he returned from the slaughter, and the King of Sodom would have had the persons, and Abraham should have had the goods himself; Abraham denied, he would not take so much as a shred of a shoestring, lest they should say, I have made Abraham rich. So Abraham that paid tithes. Several paragraphs in the original letter have been deleted because of repetition, subject matter peculiar to the time of the priests seizing spoils from arrested Quakers, and complexity. H.W. Easier to understand scripture from Hebrews 7:4-26, is substituted as follows: Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder! Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people—that is, from their kindred—even though their kindred are descended from Abraham. This man, [Melchizedeck] however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. And without doubt the lesser [Abraham] is blessed by the greater [Melchizedek]. In the one case, [Levites] the tenth is collected by those who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living [Melchizedek was forever alive, without natural mother of father, a similarity to Christ to come]. One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor. Jesus Like Melchizedek If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, [Christ] not in the order of Aaron? For w

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 Message 45 of 47 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameKiki40Sent: 7/21/2008 5:40 PM
Ok. Like, even if that post 44 said it was written by David Bernard, my absolute hero where Apostolic Doctrine is concerned, I still would not read it. Why? Because it's insane to expect people to read a 6-page paragraph!
 

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 Message 46 of 47 in Discussion 
From: trishaSent: 7/21/2008 5:44 PM
i got dizzy  partway down.  LOL

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 Message 47 of 47 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameskruntSent: 7/23/2008 7:28 PM
 kiki your right

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