BIBLICAL DISCUSSION AND DEBATE

Important Announcement

The MSN Groups service will close in February 2009. You can move your group to Multiply, MSN’s partner for online groups. Learn More

Jazz is no longer with us........

Thank you, Bishop, for the graciousness and wisdom of your contribution in #59. There is plenty of room in "ministry" for women! Just look at how the word for "minister" is used in the NT:

1) servant

a) an underrower, subordinate rower

b) any one who serves with hands: a servant

1) in the NT of the officers and attendants of magistrates as -- of the officer who executes penalties

2) of the attendants of a king, servants, retinue, the soldiers of a king, of the attendant of a synagogue

3) of any one ministering or rendering service

c) any one who aids another in any work

1) an assistant

2) of the preacher of the gospel

Sometimes, I think men get the impression that being a minister of the gospel is a lofty position. My dear Bishop Treece used to say that the Lord has ways of balancing out the honor of the call with the humility of service.

You asked a very pertinent question concerning "labour," but I think that if you studied out the various usages of the word, you'd find that this instance is not necessarily speaking of preaching but of "striving together toward a common goal." That more than likely would refer to witnessing, praying or working at the altar, and perhaps teaching in places more appropriate for women to teach than men. I think the "gifts" in which these women were used would fall into these categories:

⁸For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; ⁹To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; ¹⁰To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: ¹¹But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

and even these:

²⁸And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

There is no reason to believe that the first three of the eight "administrations" of these gifts are not to men only, while the rest of them can also include women. A woman was never "sent," and though she can "prophesy," a woman was never called to the office of prophet; and since she can only "teach" certain things to certain people, it would not be right to assume that God would set a woman in the church as a "teacher." These three "spirituals" are also "ministries" that were specifically given to men.

Ephesians 4

¹I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, ²With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; ³Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. ⁴There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; ⁵One Lord, one faith, one baptism, ⁶One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. ⁷But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. ⁸Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. ⁹(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? ¹⁰He that descended is the same also that ascended up ar above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) ¹¹And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; ¹²For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

The phrase "the work of the ministry" is not simply talking about service, but has the specific usage of those officiating in the gospel:

1) service, ministering, esp. of those who execute the commands of others

2) of those who by the command of God proclaim and promote religion among men

a) of the office of Moses

b) of the office of the apostles and its administration

c) of the office of prophets, evangelists, elders etc.

3) the ministration of those who render to others the offices of Christian affection esp. those who help meet need by either collecting or distributing of charities

4) the office of the deacon in the church

5) the service of those who prepare and present food

And Paul is very clear that women were not included in that work.

³⁴Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. ³⁵And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. ³⁶What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? ³⁷If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Though women are afforded a wonderful liberty in Christ, they are not exempt from the order of creation. Look carefully at verse 36. I'm not certain about the grammar, but it looks to me like Paul is referring to anyone who speaks "the word of God" under the unction of the Holy Ghost. Whether a woman is used in the gifts or if someone has a word directly for a woman, Paul's acid test is that they will agree that his instructions on the proper order are the commandments of the Lord. Anyone who is contentious about it disproves himself/herself as being used of God. The primary focal point of this order is "the law."

Now, for all you scholars out there, what "law" commands women "to be under obedience?"

Post #59 (Bishop): Thanks for your post, it was very thorough and thought provoking.

Thank you, Kiki. I greatly appreciate your scholarly approach to the various topics you've addressed in this community, including this topic. God bless you, dear sister. Keep on letting the Lord use you for His glory. I will certainly take the points you've made under prayerful consideration.

MinisterBT, I appreciate you, also. The calling upon one's life is a matter between that person and the Lord. And certainly, we are admonished by scripture that, in all our getting, we are to get an understanding. May He continue to give you grace and wisdom to accomplish His will andpurpose for your life.

My next question would be: Does the admonition for women to keep silence in the church pertain to all women in every congregation, or simply to certain women, like those in Corinth, whose conduct in the church was out of order? In the context of I Corinthians 12,13, and 14, can we truthfully apply Paul's admonition to keep silence in the churches to women in ministry in light of the fact that he was addressing the regulation of the gifts of the Spirit, and not the topic of the calling to the gospel ministry?

If women in ministry labor under the authority of male leadership, would they be out of order? Anyone who usurped authority, be such an one male or female, is automatically out of order, IMHO. For that wold be a failure to submit to those who have the rule.

What do you think, saints?

Until the Lord Comes!

Bishop Waverly Jackson

i For have not a husband and unfortubately you have had bad experiences with marraige...for bumpa

When i talk about labour I refer to the curse of Genisis for man....

kiki--- I some how missed your post....I do definitely aprophet is different then the person who prophecies.gree that an office of a But the use of prophetess is the same as a prophet.

I also believe that some people get 'words of knowledge' mixed up with what they perceive to believe are prophecy.

*****************************************************************

A man, on the other hand, who has been called to the office of "prophet" is fully equipped both in the Spirit and in the flesh to fulfill the duties of his office. No woman, Old Testament or New, was ever called to a prophetic office. They wrote no scripture. They led no prayer. They made no appeal on God's behalf to any nation or governmental authority. In other words, they did not officiate a divine call.

noun "prophet" came from the verb naba

which the original final letter, ayin, was softened into an aleph this verb meant "to bubble up" or "boil forth." Hence the prophet was one who entered an ecstatic state of utterance, pouring forth words automatically under divine inspiration.

The Terminology of Prophecy. The most common term for prophet (occurring over three hundred times in the Old Testament) is nabi [ayib"n]. The feminine form of this noun, nab"a(h) [h'ayibn], is used six times of women who performed the same task of receiving and proclaiming the message given by God. These women include Miriam, Aaron and Moses' sister (Exod 15:20); Deborah (Judges 4:4); the prophet Isaiah's wife (Isa 8:3); and Huldah, the one who interpreted the Book of the Law discovered in the temple during the days of Josiah (2 Kings 22:14; 2 Chron 34:22). There were false prophetesses just as there were false prophets. The prophetess Noadiah was among those who tried to intimidate Nehemiah (Neh 6:14).

New Testament prophetic phenomena into two classes: (1) the authoritative prophecies demonstrated by the apostles and their associates who functioned much as the Old Testament prophets did; and (2) a type of prophetic activity that made no claims to being the very word of God, but which was for the "strengthening, encouragement and comfort" of believers 1cor 14:3

I do disagree with you when you say a man is fully equipped both in HIS FLESH and in The Spirit to fulfill the duties of the office if you are comparing it to a woman being prepared for that call. unless I am misunderstanding the statement.

I don't know if you are misunderstanding me or the scripture, Trisha. A man, in his flesh, has authority over his family. A minister (in whatever office God sets Him in), in his flesh, has authority over his family and any of the spiritual children God gives him charge of through his ministry. A woman, in her flesh, does not have authority over her husband. Therefore, a woman minister, in her flesh, would not have authority over her husband either. If she did, I suppose you know that every woman would want to be a minister! lol! No. A woman needs a head. If she does not have a husband, her head is her father or her pastor. A woman cannot hold headship. Her uncut hair tells her so.

Thank you for opening up the discussion to some of these other points, Bishop. As always, I do appreciate your spirit.

Paul's admonition for women to keep silence pertained to all women in all congregations. The reason I say this is that he addressed the issue of women out of order also to Timothy, saying again that they are not to "teach" but to be in silence. When he addressed the women in the Corinthian congregation, he said that they are not to speak their mind in the congregation. That is an activity reserved for private discussions with their husbands at home. I know it makes it look like Paul thought women were second class citizens, but that is not what is going on here. Paul is addressing "order" in relation to the spiritual gifts in operation in the church, but there is also an order to Creation that has to be maintained. Headship is not a light issue that can so easily be dismissed. If women are not permitted liberty to speak their mind in a congregation, how in heaven's name would they possibly be able to hold a position of authority outside of the unction of the Holy Ghost? You are a minister. Are you always in the Spirit while fulfilling the duties of your office?

I can give an opinion concerning a woman laboring under the authority of male leadership, but what I would really like to know is my organization's answer for why they do ordain women ministers. I confess that I do not know it and I do not even know where to go to find the official answer. I would assume that a woman in proper submission to authority has the liberty to "labor" in the gospel. I have, after all, taught Sunday school, coached a bible quiz team, conducted home bible studies with men from the congregation present, taught ACTS classes to sinners (both male and female), led Youth Service, and spoken at women's seminars all while under the authority of my pastor. I've even edited my pastor's manuscripts! If that's not "laboring in the gospel" I just don't know what else it could be!

When the women I previously spoke of came to our church, they were introduced as "missionaries" and when they took the pulpit, their messages were called "testimonies" and not "sermons." And truly, they were not teaching doctrines or "speaking their minds," but delivering words of encouragement and faith-building stories of what God was doing or had done through them in the mission field. With a constituency as large as the UPCI, I imagine that these ladies could maintain enough speaking engagements and sell enough books to keep themselves financially secure for the rest of their widowed lives. To me, that qualifies for "ministry" because they are offering themselves and their experiences for the edification of the body. It does not qualify for "the" ministry, however. They are not "living of the gospel;" they are living of alms and the support due widows in the church as well as the fruit of their own labors as authors.

No one wanted to tell me where in the law it said that women were to be under obedience??

Let me throw something else out for everyone's consideration. If Paul was dealing with women who were out of order in his day, how come he didn't say anything at all about women feeling the unction to preach the gospel like him? Surely no one would suggest that there weren't any women in his day who thought they were called to preach??!! How come there were no women Apostles? How come there were no women evangelists/pastors/teachers in his day? How come there were no instructions for women who desired the office of Deacon or Bishop or Elder? If God calls them today, surely He could have called them back then. Surely, no one here would suggest that God is restricted by culture!!

He bucked the cultural system of the entire world when He labeled divorce and remarriage as "adultery!" Why would God have to wait for the 20th century women's liberation movement before He decided to call women into the ministry of the gospel?

I do believe that women can preach the gospel. They can laleo (declare); they can euaggelizo, diaggelo, and kataggelo (publish the good news); they can matheteuo (disciple); they can katacheo (catechism or instruct); they can sophrinozo (impart wisdom and admonition); but they cannot kyrusso (officiate as herald of the gospel) or didasko (officiate as teachers of doctrine) or poimen (pastor) or episkope (officiate as Bishop). I do need to retract a former statement (I don't remember exactly how I worded it), but women can be elders. I let y'all go look that one up for yourself.

hi there ...I was misunderstanding you....You are a great teacher and I normally catch on.

The woman were just allowed into the synogouge as a new thing and were not involved with the word of God prior to that unless the men taught them.

I truly believe the twelve apostles were picked out of foreknowledge of thier hearts and are also connectted to the twelve tribes..I have been searching this out..it is a tedious search.

I considered the majority of the woman were not educated at all...after all most slave systems don't educate due to keeping one in a subordinate spot.

That is what Hebrew culture tells me anyway.

In Fact a good friend named Shirley was allowed in the synogouges on Saturday due to her Husband having alzheimers....They then did consider her The Head of her household..It caused a uproar around here but the rabbinial order stood firm on their decision.. She had seven children..

hank you, Kiki. I appreciate your candor and your wisdom. god bless you, dear sister.

Bishop Waverly Jackson

Oops!

I meant, "Thank you, Kiki."

Yes the Bible does tell women to be silent,but if you do more studyyou find out other things.In Rom.16:1-2 it says "I commendunto you Phebe our sister,which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: that you receive her in the Lord'as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you:for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also." this tells me that she was not silent.Phebe was a christen wowan that did the work of God. She helped to lead people to the Lord.

You are correct...There is still always that double standard...some will say she couseled....haha lol but if a man speaks the same He is teaching or preaching...Some just miss the blessing...

Hi again. I am sorry I haven't been involved in this discussion since I started it. I had a heart transplant two years ago and have been busy with my yearly checkup. Every thing is great, my new heart is fine. I thank God for every day he has given me. Death was very close.

There has been a lot said regarding women preaching publicly. Romans 16:1 - 2 speaks of Phebe being a 'soccourer' or 'helper' to Paul and to many. That's all it says. Phebe was a servant of the church and I don't see were is says she was more. Paul went on to greet many 'mothers', 'sisters', and other women. However Paul never said any preached publicly. As a helper Phebe probably was not silent, however that does not equal preaching publicly. She did lead many to God and was a devote servant of the church.

Women played a big role in the church in the time of Jesus and do today. I don't know if God is calling women to preach publicly today after he inspired Paul to write 1 Tim 2:12 - 14. God is calling them, but to what?

I heard a speaker on TV the other day and he had a great saying. We are all just clumps of dirt of which God gave life to and a spirit. I love it...

Formed from the earth. I believe women can do everything in and for the church except preach publicly. We are all equal except in one area: For Adam was formed first, than Eve. God created seniority.

I consider the fact that mary getting excited over the fact she saw Jesus after finding the tomb empty is enough for me...I can hear her..Jesus has risen as she ran to tell peter and the rest. The first message preached after Jesus' ressurection..That is the only title they were able to give a woman....

Praise the Lord Jesus..That is such a traumatizing surgery to go through...and I am thanking Jesus with you he has given you much more time with us...Amen

Important Announcement The MSN Groups service will close in February 2009. You can move your group to Multiply, MSN’s partner for online groups. Learn More
BIBLICAL DISCUSSION AND DEBATE	[email protected]

Ephesians 4

Iff woman preachers speak to there flock in the same way that thay speak to there husbands thay will be out of a job soon enough.