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General : Soul Sleep
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 Message 1 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname_MrWonder_  (Original Message)Sent: 11/4/2008 1:02 AM

Soul Sleep

Kingdom of the Cults

The Seventh-day Adventist doctrine of the sleep of the soul is best expressed in their own words:  "We as Adventists believe that, in general, the Scriptures teach that the soul of man represents the whole man, and not a particular part independent of the other component parts of man's nature; and further, that the soul cannot exist apart from the body; for man is a unit...We, as Adventists, have reached the definite conclusion that man rests in the tomb until the resurrection morning.  Then, at the first resurrection (Revelation 20.4, 5) the resurrection of the just (Acts 24.15), the righteous come forth immortalized at the call of Christ, the Lifegiver, and they then enter into life everlasting in their eternal home in the kingdom of glory.  Such is our understanding."

The key to the preceding statements, of course, is the last phrase of the second paragraph, "They then enter into life everlasting, in their eternal home in the kingdom of glory."  Now, the majority of Christians through the centuries have held that this proposition contradicts the teaching of the Word of God contained in the following passages:

1.  I John 5.11-13:  "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.  He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.  These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of  the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life; and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."  In the grammar and context of this passage eternal life (eionion zoes) is the present possession of every believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, and if the term eternal life does not include conscious fellowship then the whole New Testament meaning is destroyed.  The Holy Spirit used the present indicative active of the verb echo, expressing present, continuous action.  Thus we see that the believer, having been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, already possesses never-ending life as a continuing quality of conscious existence.

2.  John 11.25, 26:  "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection and the life:  he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:  and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.  Believest thou this?"  The context here indicates that the Lord Jesus Christ was consoling Martha upon the death of her brother Lazarus.  Therefore, the words "life" and "dead" must refer to that particular occasion.  To attempt to wrest the meanings of these terms from their expressed context, and to teach that the end of the age is primarily in view or somehow close, is a violation of the grammar and context.

All thorough students of the Word of God, including the Adventists, recognize that in any study of the doctrines of eternal life and immortality, it is vitally essential to apply the hermeneutic principle (comparing all texts on a given subject) of interpretation, and the application of this principle leads to the following facts.  The root meanings for the words "death" and "life" in the New Testament usage ("death" thanatos, in its verb form apothnesko, and "life" zoe or its verb form zac) are respectively "separation or to separate," from communion or fellowship.  The Scriptures describe two types of death, physical and spiritual, the former being the separation of the body from the soul and the latter being the separation of the soul from God as the result of sin.  Also, two kinds of life are spoken of in the New Testament:  physical life (bios), which is the union or communion of body and soul; and spiritual life (zoe), which is the communion or fellowship of the soul with God.  These terms we equate with the Greek of the New Testament, and they are essential to an understanding of Christ's words to Martha.

He was assuring her that, despite the physical evidence of death, Jesus, the eternal Word of God made flesh was Himself the source of life.  And, as such, He was able to give life, even though death had actually occurred.  Let us therefore take His words literally.

Christ's primary purpose was to comfort Martha.  And what better comfort could He give than the knowledge that her family's limited concept of life as dependent upon the resurrection was depriving her of the joyous knowledge that the Prince of Life gives to the believer eternal life, unaffected by physical death.

Now let us look carefully at this context with no violation to hermeneutics or grammar, and this great truth becomes clear.  John 11.20 tells us that as soon as Martha heard that Jesus was coming to Bethany, she went out to meet him.  In verse 21 she greets Him thus:  "Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died."  In answer to her obvious affliction and grief Jesus, with divine compassion, stated, "Thy brother shall rise again."  Verse 24 indicates, however, that Martha thought He was referring to the resurrection of the dead which will take place at "the last day."

To dispel her confused and grief-instilling concept of life (spiritual life),  Jesus gives comfort beyond measure:  "I am the resurrection and the life," He declares; "he that believes in me, even though he were dead, yet shall he live, and the one living and believing in me shall never die."

Now it is apparent from the context of verse 25 that Jesus was referring to Martha's brother Lazarus, one who believed in Him and had physically died.  Christ's promise is, "yet shall he live."  But going beyond this, Jesus lifts the veil and reveals that, in the realm of the physically alive, whoever believes in Him shall never experience the greatest of all terrors, spiritual death (separation from God's fellowship, Matt. 25.41).

The Greek is extremely powerful in verse 26 for our Lord deliberately used the double negative, a construction which intensifies with great emphasis that to which it is applied.  Jesus could not grammatically have been more emphatic in stating that the believer, who is alive both physically and spiritually, can never experience loss of communion of fellowship as a spiritual entity, though his body may "become" dead.

We see, further, that Seventh-Day Adventists have no warrant for the idea that death is a state of unconsciousness.  The New Testament frequently indicates that he unregenerate man is already "dead", but not even the Adventists would say that he was extinct or unconscious!  Some instances of this are:  Matthew 8.22, "Let the dead bury their dead"; John 5.25, "The hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live"; and Ephesians 2.1, "You hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins."

Admittedly in the New Testament death is compared with sleep, but this is recognized by Bible scholars generally as a grammatical metaphor.  One does not develop a doctrine from a figure of speech, as conditional immortalists apparently have done, but upon the sound principles of Biblical hermeneutics, contextual analysis, and linguistic exegesis.  The application of these principles leads to the one conclusion which the Scripture unreservedly teaches, that eternal life is vastly different from "immortality"; although immortality will be bestowed upon the believer at the resurrection, int this life he already possesses "eternal life", a spiritual quality of existence which will at length be united with the physical quality of incorruptibility which the Bible speaks of as immortality, and "we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is"  (1st Corinthians 12; I John 3.2).  A study of these words in any Greek lexicon, and of their use in the New Testament, will show that immortality and eternal life are neither identical nor synonymous.  For certain Adventist writers therefore to treat these terms as interchangeable is clearly a linguistic impossibility.

3.  II Timothy 1.10:  The Apostle Paul writes that God's eternal purpose "is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel."  In this verse "life" (zoen) and "immortality" (aphtharsian) are clearly distinguished.  Life has been bestowed upon the believer at the moment of regeneration by faith in Jesus Christ (I John 5.11, 12); immortality is a future gift, to be bestowed upon the believer's body at the second advent of our Lord, or as Paul expressed it, "This corruptible must put on incorruption (aphtharsian), and this mortal must put on immortality" (athanasian).

Again, in Romans 2.7, the Apostle clearly distinguishes between "eternal life" as a conscious quality of spiritual existence bestowed upon the believer as a gift; and "immortality", which, in this connection in the New Testament refers to the resurrection bodies of the saints or to the nature of God Himself.  Thus, God's Word clearly indicates the difference between "life" as spiritual existence, and "immortality", incorruptibility in a body like that of our risen Lord.

4.  Philippians 1.21-23:  For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.  But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labor:  yet what I shall choose I wot not.  For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:  nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you."

Seventh Day Adventists say here,

Of course it will be better to be with Christ, but why, it must be asked, should we conclude that the apostle expects immediately upon death to go at once into the presence of Christ?  The Bible does not say so.  It merely states his desire to depart and be with Christ.  One might reason that the implication is to the effect that being with Christ would be immediately on his departure.  But it must be admitted that such is not a necessary implication, and it certainly is not a definite statement of the text.  In this particular passage Paul does not tell us when he will be with his Lord.  In other places he uses an expression similar to one in this passage.  For instance, he says, "The time of my departure is at hand" (2 Timothy 4.6).  The Greek word used in these two texts, analuo, is not used very often in the Greek New Testament, but the word has the meaning "to be loosened like an anchor."  It is a metaphor drawn from the loosened moorings preparatory to setting sail.

Now, of all the texts in the New Testament on the state of the believer after the death of his body, this one alone gives us Paul's mind on the subject, so we need to pay strict attention to what he says.  In the main, Seventh-day Adventists support their arguments with Old Testament passages, most of which are taken out of context, while ignoring metaphorical usages, implications or deductions.  To treat literally such words as "sleep", "death", and "destroy" is unwarranted.  However, in the New Testament, when faced with a positive statement like this one by the Apostle Paul, it seems that they refuse to be literal and insist upon metaphors, deductions and implications.  They seem unwilling to accept the Apostle's statement at face value.  The noted Adventist author F. D. Nichol, in his book Answers to Objections, states that if Philippians 1.21-23 were the only passage about the condition of man in death, he would be forced to acknowledge the accepted Orthodox position.  Nichol then attempts to strengthen his argument by taking texts out of context to "prove" that Paul does not mean what he most decidedly says.  With this thought in mind, let us examine the context and grammar of the Apostle's statement for it answer the Seventh-day Adventist contention.

In verse 21 Paul states that to continue to live is Christ, and to die "is gain".  Since Paul was ordained to preach the Word of God to the Gentiles while enjoying fellowship with the living Christ, what would he gain by death or unconsciousness?  According to the Adventist idea, fellowship with Christ would end, and Paul would merely go to sleep until the resurrection.  This argument violates both context and grammar.

Verse 23 is grammatically uncomplicated.  It is a series of coordinate statements tied together by the conjunctions kai and de.  The phrase "to depart and be with Christ, which is far better" (eis to analusai kai sun christo einai) is grammatically devasting to the Seventh-day Adventist position.  The preposition eis plus the definite article to shows "true purpose or end in view"--the strong desire which cause Paul's dilemma.  Both infinitives (analusai and einai) have one construction--they are used with one definite article--so are one thought, one grammatical expression:  literally, "my desire is to the 'to depart and to be with Christ.'"  In simple English, Paul's one desire has a twofold object:  departure and being with Christ!  If departure did not mean his immediately being with Christ, another construction would have been employed.  It therefore seems impossible that soul sleep was in the mind of the Apostle, since he desired to depart from his body and to spiritually enjoy the presence of his Lord.  The Second Advent could not have been in view in this passage, for the context indicates that Paul expected death--and instantaneous reunion with Christ--then, not at the resurrection.  There would have been no need of his staying to instruct the Philippians (vs. 24) if he were speaking of the Second Advent, for they would all be glorified together and in need no longer of His presence to strengthen them.  Most translators and recognized Greek authorities contend that Philippians 1.12-23 teaches the historic position of the Christian Church, i.e., the conscious presence of the believer with Christ at the death of the body.

As quoted above, the Adventists, in common with all conditionalists, say, but "Why should we conclude from this remark that the Apostle expects, immediately upon death, to go at once into the presence of Christ?  The Bible does not say so.  It merely states his desire to depart and to be with Christ."  We answer that the context of the chapter, the grammatical construction of the verse, and every grammar book on New Testament Greek usage teaches that from the construction utilized the Apostle expected to go at once into the presence of his Lord.  Nevertheless, the Adventists insist, "The Bible does not say so.  It merely states his desire to depart and to be with Christ."  This statement is not accurate, it is not exegetically sound, and it will not stand the test of contextual criticism.  It is only an attempt, I believe, to justify a doctrine that is not supported by the Word of God.

In reply to the Adventist statement, "In this particular passage Paul does not tell us when he will be with his Lord," we point out that the Apostle categorically states that his desire is "to depart."  If this departure did not mean immediate presence with Christ, he would have used a different grammatical construction as previously noted; but as it stands, it can have no other meaning.  In the face of these facts, Seventh-day Adventists disregard the preponderance of historical scholarship in favor of the doctrine of "soul sleep."

5.  I Thessalonians 4.13-18:  "I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.  For this we say, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:  and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:  and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

This final passage refutes the SDA teaching on the intermediate state of the dead, and is marked by explicit emphasis of construction in the Greek and cannot be ignored by any serious student of the language.

The key is the preposition sun which carries the primary meaning of "together with."  In verse 14, the Holy Spirit tells us that God intends to bring with Him (sun auto), that is, with Jesus at His second advent, believing Christians who have experienced physical death.  The physical state of their bodies is described as "sleep," a common metaphor in the New Testament.  In every instance where the word "sleep" is used to describe death, it always applies to the body and cannot be applied to the soul, especially since "sleep" is never used with reference to the soul.  This fact Seventh-day Adventists seem to overlook.

The second use of sun is in verse 17, which tells us that believers who survive to the coming of the Lord will be caught up together with them (sun autois), that is, with the dead in Christ (oi nekroi en Christe) to meet the Lord in the air.  Here again, sun has no meaning other than "together with"; a fact most difficult for Seventh-day Adventists to explain.

--Kingdom of the Cults



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Reply
 Message 2 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameJcan071Sent: 11/5/2008 2:42 PM
MW i might be alittle off topic here, but this has confused me some by an expression that apostle Paul uses in his letter to the Thessalonians:"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:23).What does Paul mean by this phrase "spirit, soul, and body"?

Reply
 Message 3 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname_MrWonder_Sent: 11/5/2008 3:03 PM
Good morning Jcan:
 
My understanding of it comes from Watchman Nee in his book Spiritual Authority, where he explains that God formed man's body from the dust of the earth and then breathed man's spirit into him directly from God, and as the Bible says, "and man became a living soul."
 
So the synopsis is Nee says the union of the spirit of man with the body of the man created the soul of the man.  The spirit is the real man - that which can apprehend and appreciate and commune with the Spirit of God.  It is the core of man - the Holy of Holies in the Temple would correspond to it.  It is where God meets man.
 
The soul is the seat of the emotions, the will, and the mind (I do believe there is overlap between the two).  This is the inner court.
 
The outer court is the body.
 
How man was created to function was that the spirit (the innermost man) was to rule the soul (the inner man) and the soul was to communicate the commands of the spirit-man to the body of the man, and the body would carry out those actions the spirit of the man commanded.
 
When man sinned, the spirit, which was in communion with and under the direction of God, sank down in subjection to the soulish man, so that the soul now dominates man and the body is now subject to the carnal nature of the soul, and exhibits what we call the "lusts of the flesh".
 
When a person is saved, their spirit is reborn (made alive to God by the Holy Spirit through the new life imparted by the Spirit of God) and again has the capacity to commune with God.  As we are led of the Spirit of God we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh but we fulfill the desires of the Spirit instead.  When we allow the soulish man to take over, we fulfill the lusts of the flesh.  The challenge is to renew the mind by transforming it through the Word of God (Romans 12.1-2).
 
If you picture three circles, the outer circle is the body.  The circle inside that one is the soul.  The innermost circle is the spirit.  The soul (middle circle) touches both the inner circle (spirit) and the outer circle (body) so that it is the vehicle of communication for the expression of the desires of the spirit to the body and when the spirit is made alive unto God then we can live out God's will in our mortal bodies.
 
I hope I have helped and not confused things.

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 Message 4 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname_MrWonder_Sent: 11/5/2008 3:04 PM
P.S.  It is therefore the body that "sleeps" in death in the grave, not the soul or spirit.

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 Message 5 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameBOBWOOD1Sent: 11/6/2008 10:12 PM
THe reply to the Adventist on this is the repantant thief on the cross is Jesus said to him "TODAY shalt thou be with me in Paradise." He would be with Christ immediately they died! Bob Wood.

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 Message 6 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameJcan071Sent: 11/7/2008 2:23 PM
Post # 4: P.S.  It is therefore the body that "sleeps" in death in the grave, not the soul or spirit.
 
 
 
Thanks MW for your answers.....You dont hear much teaching on this topic...
 
 
 
Post # 5: THe reply to the Adventist on this is the repantant thief on the cross is Jesus said to him "TODAY shalt thou be with me in Paradise." He would be with Christ immediately they died! Bob Wood.
 
 
Bob when Jesus told the thief on the cross, today ye shall be with me in Paradise, what does that mean??Where or what is paradise??

Reply
 Message 7 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameJcan071Sent: 11/7/2008 7:39 PM
How about this:

2: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you..... I go to prepare a place for you....
3: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also....
John 14:2-3

Jesus said before we will be with him where he is he will have to come again and receive us to himself..... I take this to mean at his second coming....

Instant Heaven doctrine says as soon as you die you are with him where he is.....

Who should we believe?

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