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ONE/ONE DEBATES : The End of the Church Age
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(1 recommendation so far) Message 1 of 45 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknameus59pizza  (Original Message)Sent: 9/27/2008 6:24 PM
Firstly, let me say I believe everyone should attend the church of his/her choice, and that there are genuine Christians in all denominations

However, I truly believe that organised religion will prove to be the mark of the beast. When people are trusting in church membership to save them, rather than in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, they are not born again by the Spirit of God, no matter how much they may look and sound like it. We cannot just accept Jesus Christ because that is what others say we should do - it must be a personal experience.

Throughout history, organised religion has always been antagonistic to the working of the Holy Spirit in the Church. In the 16th century, the Catholic Church opposed the Reformation led by Martin Luther. In the 18th century, the protestant Anglican Church opposed the move of God’s Spirit led by John Wesley. In the early 20th century, the established churches opposed the Pentecostal movement, although nearly 100 years later, the Pentecostal-Charismatic movement has influenced most denominations.

If God has a new direction for the Body of Christ, we can be sure that the organised churches will oppose it. Taking an overview of church history, we can see that light was gradually lost from the Church as it descended into the Dark Ages. When the Church began to re-emerge into the light 500 years ago, eventually bringing it back to its Pentecostal roots, it was resisted all the way by the established churches trying to protect the status quo.

The seal of God is the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 1:22; Eph 4:30). All those who do not have this seal will have the mark of the beast. The Catholic church is the original and mother of all denominations. This organisational structure is described as a whore and her daughters, the protestant denominations, are called harlots (Rev 17:5 KJV). There are approximately 2 billion Christians in the world, with half being Catholic and half being Protestant. I believe the ‘beast�?represents the catholic system headed by the Pope �?the ‘image to the beast�?is the system of organised protestant religion.

The good news is that individual believers can walk with Christ in spite of the rigid organisational church structure that is resistant to the direction of the Holy Spirit.


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 Message 31 of 45 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknameus59pizzaSent: 9/27/2008 8:48 PM
 

We must remember, however, that no one can see the hearts of men. The churches of our day are filled with men and women who are altogether convinced that they are saved. But by their disobedience to the command of God to come out of their local congregation, because God’s judgment has come upon it, they are showing that they may not be true believers. We must listen to the Bible and not trust at all in what we think. Therefore, during this half hour of silence, we can know that those who were convinced they were saved in that time could not have become saved.

The Church Age, that is, the time when the local churches were bringing the Gospel to the world, is typified by two witnesses. God says in Revelation 11:3- 6:

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

The time these two witnesses are to preach is 1,260 days. This equals forty-two months of thirty days which equals three and a half years. These three and a half years can be shown to be the last half of the seven years spoken of in Daniel 9:27, where we read:

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

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 Message 32 of 45 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknameus59pizzaSent: 9/27/2008 8:50 PM
The three and a half years or 1,260 days is the period from the middle of the seventieth seven, �?B>the midst of the week,�?when sacrifice and offering was to cease, until the consummation, which comes at the end of the world. This 1,260 days is the same period spoken of in Revelation 12:6 which identifies with the body of believers throughout the New Testament era. The fire that proceeds out of the mouths of these two witnesses (Revelation 11:5) refers to the Word of God which they publish. That Word is the fragrance of life unto life and death unto death (II

Corinthians 2:14-16). That is, the Word of God brings eternal life to those who become saved, but it also will condemn the unsaved to Hell forever. The language that speaks of these two witnesses having the power to shut up Heaven, to turn waters into blood, and smite the earth with all plagues (Revelation 11:6), are a reminder of two Old Testament men. The prophet Elijah prayed and the rain stopped for three and a half years (James 5:17). Moses was used of God to turn the waters of Egypt into blood (Exodus 7:20) and to bring ten terrible plagues upon Egypt (Exodus Chapters 7-12).

Moses represents the Law and Elijah the prophets. The Bible is called Moses and the prophets (Luke 16:29) and the Law and the prophets (Luke 16:16). Therefore, whenever these two witnesses are prophesying, it is the Bible that is the power and authority of their witnessing.


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 Message 33 of 45 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknameus59pizzaSent: 9/27/2008 8:51 PM

But the time would come when these two witnesses would become silenced because they are killed. This must coincide with the approximate half hour when Heaven is silent. Revelation 11:7-8 explains this:

And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The two witnesses are killed, that is, the Gospel has been silenced. It does not mean that they are physically dead. In John 16:2, God explains that being killed is equivalent to being put out of the synagogue (also translated “assembly�?. There we read:

They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

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 Message 34 of 45 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknameus59pizzaSent: 9/27/2008 8:52 PM
When individuals are driven from the assembly, spiritually they have been killed because their voice can no longer be heard in the assembly. They are killed in the sense that they have been driven out by the congregation itself.
 

Please note the language God uses in Revelation 11:8. There God indicates their dead bodies lie in the streets of the great city called Sodom and Egypt where also our Lord was crucified. Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem. Jerusalem in Jesus�?day was the external representation of the kingdom of God. During the Church Age, the local congregations became the external representation of the kingdom of God, so they are the Jerusalem that is in view in this verse.

But now Jerusalem �?the local churches �?have become Sodom and Egypt. That is, they, like ancient Sodom which was destroyed because of its extreme wickedness, are under the judgment of God (Jude 3-4, 7). They have become like ancient Egypt of Moses�?day which God used to typify being in bondage to sin and being under the rule of Satan (typified by Pharaoh) (Exodus 13:14-15; II Peter 2:18-19).

That is why Revelation 11:7 speaks of the beast that comes from the bottomless pit making war against the true believers who are the two witnesses. The beast represents Satan. As Revelation 9:1-2 discloses, it is Christ Himself who has loosed Satan from the bottomless pit. The bottomless pit typifies Hell. Satan was loosed from the bottomless pit in the sense that he would be allowed to rule in all of the local churches, throughout the world, as the man of sin (Revelation 20:1-3, 7-10). Therefore, Satan (the beast) is now ruling in the local congregations and is able to drive out the true believers (the two witnesses). He is ruling in the local congregations because God Himself has abandoned all the local churches (II Thessalonians 2:3-7).

Now God has shifted the responsibility of evangelizing the world away from the institution of the local churches and to individuals. You will remember that for the first approximately 9,000 years of history, God had used individuals like Enoch and Noah to represent the kingdom of God to the world. Then beginning with Abraham, God raised up the nation of Israel to be the external representation of the kingdom of God. Then after Jesus was crucified, as God continued to unfold His salvation plan to the world, God shifted to the utilization of local churches to provide an external representation of the kingdom of God to the world.

God’s utilization of the local churches ended when the half an hour of silence from Heaven commenced. Temporarily, God the Holy Spirit was not saving anyone anywhere in the world. True, preachers continue to preach and individuals continue to witness. However, remember we learned that two very important things are required before God can save His elect. (The elect are those who were chosen by God to become saved.) First of all, they must read or hear the Word of God which is the Bible. Secondly, God Himself must apply that Word to the hearts of those whom He plans to save.


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 Message 35 of 45 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknameus59pizzaSent: 9/27/2008 8:54 PM
 

These principles were in evidence in a striking way when Jesus preached. He was the Perfect Preacher since He was God Himself. Yet, do you remember that even though He diligently preached for three and a half years, only a few people became saved (Mark 2:1-12; 5:1-20; Luke 23:39-43; John 8:3-11)? But later, when the Holy Spirit was poured out on Pentecost, about 3,000 became saved (Acts 2:1, 41).

Thus, when Revelation 8:1 reports that Heaven was silent for about half an hour, it means that for this symbolic period of time, no one was being saved throughout the whole world. It was at this time that the churches lost their commission to represent the Gospel to the world.

In the Bible, this dreadful situation is called the Great Tribulation. This is referred to in Matthew 24:21-22:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

In several verses, the entire period of the Great Tribulation is referred to as a period of one hour (Revelation 17:12; 18:10, 17, 19). Revelation 17:12 is especially significant:

And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

We, therefore, conclude that the ten horns represent the rule of Satan within the local churches throughout the entire time of the Great Tribulation.


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 Message 36 of 45 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknameus59pizzaSent: 9/27/2008 8:56 PM
If no one could become saved, it means there was
no hope for the world.Matthew 24:21 effectively speaks of this time of Great Tribulation as a trauma, a catastrophe, by using the language �?B>tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world.�?Nowhere in the Bible do we read of another time when there was silence in Heaven for a period of time.Therefore, it appeared that each and every human being who had not become saved before the Great Tribulation began was guaranteed to end up in Hell.

No situation can be imagined that is more terrible, more awful, more traumatic than this. During this half hour of silence in Heaven, which identified with the first part of the Great Tribulation, even though many true believers, who are eternally secure as saved people, brought the Gospel outside of the local congregations, no one was becoming saved. Indeed, during the half hour of silence, which was the first part of the Great Tribulation, the whole world was in the most awful predicament, the greatest spiritual trouble it had ever seen


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 Message 37 of 45 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknameus59pizzaSent: 9/27/2008 8:57 PM

During the entire period of Great Tribulation, Satan had been given full rule in each and every local congregation throughout the world. We read in II Thessalonians 2:3-4:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The man of sin spoken of in this verse can be shown to be Satan. He is called the man of sin because he is typified by the king of Babylon whom God used to represent Satan (Isaiah Chapter 14). While Satan is a spirit being and not a human being, he is called a man in Isaiah 14:16 because he is typified by the king of Babylon.

The phrase he �?B>sitteth in the temple�?means he rules in the temple. The temple signifies the local congregations. In the Old Testament, the physical temple was the external representation of the kingdom of God. In the Church Age, the local churches were the external representation of the kingdom of God. Thus, the phrase �?B>he . . . sitteth in the temple�?refers to Satan ruling in the local congregations throughout the world.


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 Message 38 of 45 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknameus59pizzaSent: 9/27/2008 8:59 PM

This terrible condition in the local congregations will continue throughout the entire Great Tribulation period, that is, to the last day of this world’s existence (II Thessalonians 2:6-9). That is why God commands in Matthew 24:15-16: 

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.

The �?B>holy place�?in this verse refers to the local congregations which throughout the Church Age were the caretakers of the Bible. They had been mandated by God to send the Gospel into all the world. But during the Great Tribulation, the abomination of desolation is in all of the local congregations. The abomination of desolation is Satan who now rules in the churches. The word “Judaea,�?like the word “temple�?in II Thessalonians 2:4, was used in the Old Testament as a representation of the external kingdom of God. In the Church Age, it therefore refers to the local churches. The “mountains�?refer to Christ Himself. We read in Psalm 121:1:

I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills [or mountains], from whence cometh my help.

Thus, in Matthew 24:15, God is teaching that the true believers, if they have not already been driven out, are commanded to flee from the local congregations.  


Reply
 Message 39 of 45 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknameus59pizzaSent: 9/28/2008 4:37 AM
Here ya go jerrie, you can find it on the one on one debate board

Reply
 Message 40 of 45 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameBOBWOOD1Sent: 9/28/2008 11:51 PM
"Saved by Grace alone!
This is all my plea!
Jesus died for all mankind,
and Jesus died for ME!"
Bob Wood

Reply
 Message 41 of 45 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknameus59pizzaSent: 9/29/2008 12:22 AM
AMEN, see you much later brother

Reply
 Message 42 of 45 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameEnd_Time_Warrior7Sent: 9/30/2008 2:30 PM
Though many be called but few are chosen.
Saved by grace through faith.
faith without works is nothing.
though one has not chrity it is nothing.
You must be born again of water and Spirit to enter the kindom of heaven
Seems there are many elements to salvation.

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 Message 43 of 45 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameKiki40Sent: 9/30/2008 11:42 PM
By the term “Church Age,�?we are speaking of the period in God’s unfolding history of the world when He utilized a divine institution consisting of local congregations or local churches to evangelize the world.
 
That would be also known as the dispensation of grace, the period of time in which the doors to the grace of God are opened unto all men rather than just the offspring of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. So, by saying that the church age is now over, are you saying that the grace of God is no longer accessible to anybody?
 
 

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 Message 44 of 45 in Discussion 
From: trishaSent: 10/2/2008 10:34 PM
hey kiki...
the period of time between Malachi and John are close to two thousand years... so one could say.  I believe the macabean revolt was during this time and those extra books in the douay is said to come from this time as well..  It is said that God was silent...I just want to hear your opinion..  I really should do a historiacal study...hmmm  I myself don't really have one ...i have no info in this little brain about it.  Thanks
 

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 Message 45 of 45 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameKiki40Sent: 10/3/2008 1:15 AM
God was silent. There were no recorded prophetic utterances given during that time. The best we have as an explanation is speculation, so I won't even go there...except to say that this was not the first period in man's history when God's voice was unfamiliar. Can you recall when?
 

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