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| | From:  Freeborn551 (Original Message) | Sent: 3/5/2007 9:35 PM |
I am answering Tweety's last post under her thread or the pre-existence of Jesus. Here is my answer to Philippians 2.
Philippians 2 Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; Now ask yourself this question: which mind is God telling us to let be in us? Is it this mind of thinking ourselves equal with God, or is it this humble mind of being a servant of God? See, the mind which he wants to be in us, is the mind which Jesus had on earth. It is not telling us that Jesus had this mind and form before he was born. It is merely telling us that at some time Jesus did have this form, and that is when he was exalted by God, after his resurrection. I will attempt to answer this Scripture, as God would have me do. May His truth come forth to each of us. Since I know that Jesus did not exist before his birth to Mary, Since I know that no Scripture says this, then I must look for the answer elsewhere, as you all should do. Until someone gives me a Scripture which CLEARLY states that Jesus was pre-existent, or incarnate, or God before he became man, or anything which proves these words, then you must all look for the interpretation elsewhere. If the Word does NOT teach that, then you must seek to know what it is saying, if you want truth. Tweety and Dakes, along with many others, believe that Phil. 2 is showing that Jesus was in the form of God BEFORE he came to earth. And since no other Scripture interprets it this way, then that cannot be the correct answer. To start your quest as to the truth of this Scripture, ask yourself, is there any Scripture which teaches us that the heavenly beings, who inhabit Heaven as God’s kingdom, were formed. The word teaches that the Heavenly Kingdom had neither beginning or ending, neither father or mother. They were not FORMED. They are eternal. They are spirit. So then, how could this Scripture in Phil. 2 be stating that Jesus was in the FORM of God, before he came to be a human man? To be in the ‘form�?of God, would be saying that Jesus was formed. So if that be true, then he could not have been one of the eternal beings. If he is not eternal, then he did not exist before his birth here. If he is eternal, then he would have had to have an end. Then that would cross the Word which states that they have neither beginning of ending of days. If this eternal being left heaven, and came to earth and then died on a cross, then that eternal being had an end. Jesus himself stated that the things concerning me have an end. Then this itself denies that he was an eternal being. That is enough to PROVE conclusively that Jesus did not exist as part of the heavenly kingdom, in the form of God, before he was born here as a man. For if he was born here, with death in his members, as mortal, then that alone proves that this ‘supposedly eternal being�?had an end. It would cross the other Scripture and no truth would be present. Then of course, as I have already stated, you must find Scripture proof that a heavenly being left heaven and became a tiny egg cell growing inside Mary. No one yet, has come forth with even one single proof of this matter. Yet millions of deceived folks still cling to this false teaching, seeking no proof. Until you start searching the Scripture for proof of any and all teachings, you are open to Satan to tell you just anything. You are subject to all kinds of lies and evil doctrines. Jesus said search the Scriptures. Do you do this? Or do you just accept what some man told you? I am saying here is where the first part of Philp 2:6 ---Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:--- Is fulfilled. Mr 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. Mr 16:10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept. Mr 16:11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not. Mr 16:12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. (So do you think this is the third form Jesus has been in? How many do you think there were? Do you have Scripture proof? If he was in a different form, before he was born, then in the form of sinful man, then after his resurrection, he was in another form, and possibly another one yet after he ascended, then that is more than two forms. Is this truly taught in Scripture? I think not.) The Scripture in Philippians is saying that when Jesus was in the form of God, (which was after his resurrection), he then thought it not robbery to be equal with God, for God had THEN given Jesus the same power and authority as God had. God had set Jesus up to be God at that time, and sat him on his own throne. This made Jesus now equal with God. But Jesus had NOT sought to be equal with God. Jesus had not coveted this position as Adam had. So Jesus did not seek to ‘rob�?God of his glory or power, as Adam had done. God GAVE this to Jesus as a reward for his perfect obedience. Then the Scripture drops back to Jesus�?earthly life, showing that he did not seek to lift himself up, seeking to make himself of a great reputation. This was the sin of Adam, not Jesus. God exalted Jesus to the form of God after Jesus had fulfilled his life in obedience to God, here on earth. He was never in the form of God before he was born here. This is purely showing that this occurred after he was resurrected. It may seem that it is saying Jesus was in this heavenly form first, but that is because people do not have the truth, and do not read the Scripture in the same sense it was spoken. Many times a verse will speak of something on down in time, then drop back to an earlier time. That is what happened in the Scripture in Philippians. Jesus never claimed to be equal with God in his earthly lifetime. He said, My Father is GREATER than I. He was God’s servant while in this life. He is now God’s right hand ruler. He appeared in this form of God after his resurrection, not before. He was in the likeness or form of sinful man before his glorification. To try to say he was in the form of God before he was born, is adding stuff to the Word which is not taught in the Word. I am saying what the Word says, that he was in another form after his resurrection, not before. Again I say that to try and say that Jesus was in this form of God BEFORE he was born, then left heaven and came to Mary’s womb, then was born as we are, then died and went into hellfire, is to deny that the heavenly beings, spirits, have no ending of LIFE. Jesus died. His life ended. This alone proves he was not one of the heavenly spirits before he was here as a man. They do not ever die. They are eternal. If an eternal being came to earth and DIED, then it is not eternal after all. It had an end. They have no ending of days. So who you going to believe? Dakes or the KJV? As for me, I accept fully and only what the KJV teaches. Jo Smith |
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Dear Freeborn, Thank You for that great intrepetation of PHP 2. Let us take this verse by verse here. And then I will post the "Kenosis of Christ". Tweety Notes For Verse 5 a [Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus] Let the mind of self-emptying be in you which was in Christ. See The "Kenosis" of Christ. Notes For Verse 6 a [Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God] Seven steps in His humiliation: 1. Christ was consecrated to humble Himself (Php. 2:5). 2. Christ laid aside His divine form (Php. 2:6). 3. Christ made Himself of no reputation (Php. 2:7). 4. Christ took the form of a servant (Php. 2:7). 5. Christ was made in the likeness of human beings (Php. 2:7). 6. Christ humbled Himself (Php. 2:8). 7. Christ became obedient unto death (Php. 2:8). b [being] Greek: huparcho (GSN-<G5225>), though existing; subsisting. He existed as God from all eternity (Isa. 7:14; 9:6-7; Mic. 5:2; Jn. 1:1-2; Heb. 1:8; Rev. 1:8-11). c [form] Greek: morphe (GSN-<G3444>), the outward form that strikes the vision; the external appearance. Here; Php. 2:7; Mk. 16:12. The passage should read, "who, existing in the form of God (by which He from eternity had appeared to the inhabitants of heaven), yet not thinking that this equality with God should be clung to or retained, He emptied Himself of it, so as to assume the form of a servant and become like man" (Php. 2:6-7). Notes For Verse 7 a [made himself of no reputation] Notes For Verse 8 a [humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross] Christ humbled Himself from the divine form to human form, and from sinless humanity to sinful and corrupt infamy -- even the death of the cross, bearing the sins of all men (Php. 2:8; 1Pet. 2:24). Notes For Verse 9 a [hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name] Seven steps in His exaltation: 1. God highly exalted Him (Php. 2:9; Eph. 1:21). 2. God gave Him a name above all (Php. 2:9). 3. At the mere mention of His name, every knee must bow (Php. 2:10). 4. Everything in heaven must bow (Php. 2:10). 5. Everything in earth must bow (Php. 2:10). 6. Everything under the earth must bow (Php. 2:10). 7. Every tongue confess His Lordship to the glory of God the Father (Php. 2:11). —Dake's Study Notes |
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Jo, I saw what Tweety had posted about this earlier, but have not had the time to respong to it and I am glad I did not, because yu have done a much better with this than I would have. I hope Tweety can see the true meaning of what you have posted. |
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Tweety, if you insist on adding to the Scriptures words which are not written anywhere in the Word, to cling to Dakes, then you are missing God altogether. You are doing exactly as the Branhamites do, setting this man's words above God's Word. Now I went to extensive time, work, and trouble to take each word of Dakes and the Scriptures he listed and showed you that none of it is in Scripture. If you are not going to deal with what I wrote, then do not bother to give me anymore of Dakes stuff. I will not take up my time to answer it if you are just going to ignore the truth I presented. If you are not willing to search the Scripture and PROVE which one of these things is true, then you do not wish to find truth. For instance take this, (from your message) 2. Christ laid aside His divine form (Php. 2:6). Now the Word of God did NOT SAY THAT. It is added words, which is strictly FORBIDDEN BY GOD. That is not anywhere in Scripture. Do you want the truth or do you just want to keep idolizing Dakes? Until you deal with my messages, I am not going to take up my time with this any longer. I mean you no harm, but it is doing no good to write all of this, if you just ignore it and continue to try to lead me into accepting Dakes LIES. I need to spend my time and studying for my next message out of Genesis. But I was willing to do this, if you were willing to study my answers. If you do not care that NONE OF DAKES WORDS ARE IN SCRIPTURE, and you change the very wording of Scripture, as some of these things above do, telling me it should have READ THIS WAY, instead of the KJV way, then you are changing God's Word to suit Dakes lies. This is dangerous business and will keep you from God. It will destroy your soul, for you change God's Word to hold up some earthly man's lies. Hope you can accept this in love and not get hurt or run off, as so many do when I have to admonish them this way. I am only saying this for your own spiritual benefit. In love, Jo |
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Tweety, do you really want God's truth? You must deside this for yourself. | Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. |
Now you show me one single word of that verse which states that Jesus existed as God from all eternity. I tell you, it is nothing but lies. God cannot die. An eternal being has no death, no end of days. It is lies against God's Word. | For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. | | Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this |
Do you see those words, "of the increase of his government and peace THERE SHALL BE NO END"? If that child it is speaking of was Jesus, the son of Mary, then this Scripture lied. For he died, and that would have ENDED his government, if he had any. HE HAD NONE on this earth in his human life. So this CHILD is NOT speaking of HIM. Dakes had no revelation at all from God. How long will you cling to his lies? I have already posted many message here fully explaining in detail those other Scritpures he lists trying to make some eternal God come to earth into Mary's womb. If you all do not read what I write, I will not keep re-doing it over and over. It is usless. I am telling all of you, NO SUCH THING HAPPENED. No Scripture says this. it is man's own misunderstanding and Lack OF studying God's Word, seeking truth, which has caused all of this error. I can find almost no one who truly wishes to learn God's Truth and depart from man's lies. Are you going to search what I am saying or continue to ignore it? I am out of this, until you decide to consider what I am saying....else why say it? Jo |
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| Where in the scripture of PHP 2:6 say that he did NOT lay aside his Divine Form? First you have to know what the Divine form is/. Go back to Gen. Let me ask you this? God is a Spirit (glorified). Adam in the beginning was Glorified. Jesus said He and his father are one. So how do you think Jesus was then in a flesh form? He could have been sent here with the full glorification of himself. But he was like us in every way. To show us that he was the way. He was like us-except he had no sin. Jesus could not be in the womb in a Divine way. He had to make right what Adam made wrong. He had to be in flesh. But he went back in the same glorified body as Adam had in the garden. That is what I believe. I was reading John 17 today. Let us look at this: John 17:11 (KJV)
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. Would you say that in this passage Jesus is NOT telling his Father that Jesus and God are as ONE? Would you draw the conclusion that this verse above, does not make you say that God and Jesus were of the same Sprit? Here is another verse that I would like for you to look at: John 17:21-23 (KJV)
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
What conclusions do you get from those passages? Again Jesus is praying to the father and stating that he and GOD are one. How could this be if he and and God were not one in Spirt in heaven? What about this verse? John 17:24 (KJV)
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Understand that when Jesus was praying all of this prayer he was not crucified. So Jesus is saying that he wants all repentant sinners to be in heaven where he was. So they can behold his glory that he had when he was in heaven before. What about this passage? John 17:25-26 (KJV)
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. I ask you what is meant here when Jesus says that the world has not known the FATHER? But he has? Are you thinking that he knows him because he studied man's word on him? NO! He knew Him because he was in heaven before he was sent here in flesh form to save the world from the penalty of sin which is death.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. Now let's talk about Dake: Dake was not like William Brahnam. William Brahnam lead many people astray. He damned alot of souls with his preaching of false things. He became famous and this went to his head. He then began to think he was a Prophet from God. Something like that. He did the same thing as Adam did. He exalted himself, because he thought he was preaching the truth. But he was not. He twisted the scriptures to suit his own purpose which probably was to get more money and fame. He in the end was preaching the devils teachings. I believe in the beginning he had a good soul, but greed and fame destryed his soul and his mind. William Brahnam turned away from God's Word, because it did not suit him. He needed to show something different (to put on a show). Want to know why I think he was a Trinity believer and then a Oneness? Because he choose to ignore God's words clearly showing a Trinity. William Brahnam could not hold a candle to Finis Dake. Many people today have tried to make it look like he was saying one thing, but when you read for yourself what he wrote you will find out that he was saying something different. William Brahnam turned millions away from the true WORD of God. That is only showing that he embraced sin and loved it. And instead of bringing many to God, he brought many to Satan, but most will never know until the face God. Tweety
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Hi Tweety, thank you for answering this. I get very discouraged when I work and work to help others learn the glory God has taught me, only to have them disregard it. Even when a person does not see the truth, if they will at least discuss it, then we can fellowship and hopefully one of us can help the other one see the LIGHT. Now, you said this: | Where in the scripture of PHP 2:6 say that he did NOT lay aside his Divine Form? |
tweety, it is not a matter of if it did not say he laid it aside. That is now how you learn truth. You must find where it DOES SAY HE DID. A person could pick out any old junk, (and they did) ... and go at it that way and think anything. If you said, God said the world is pink. and I say no, God said the world is green. Then you could say where does a verse NOT say it is pink? See that is no way to prove a thing. But if I had a verse saying the world is green, then that is all the proof I need. Now I had laid down and taken a nap, as i was very tired. I just now woke back up. God was showing me something about the two trees when I woke. It was staggering, and I do not understand how one could have ever missed it. Yet if I have ever realized it, I can't remember. So Now, i came to the computer first and checked the board. Am so glad you dealt with this. So I will just do this one little part for now. Too much gets lost in the crowd. I am going to get a bite to eat and come back. Since You posted this a short while ago, i checked the buddy, and it shows you have gotten off. So I will do some more later. But I want to check on what God was showing me first and then I wish to write up what God showed me. It will help clearfy why this right here is so confusing to everyone. But Not one thing you have said so far proves to me that Jesus existed before he was born. In fact what God was showing me just now, proves even more to me that it is as I already believe it. But know that I once believed the other way also, for that is the only way it has ever been taught to any of us. God showed me different. Jo |
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John 17:11 (KJV)
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. Would you say that in this passage Jesus is NOT telling his Father that Jesus and God are as ONE? Would you draw the conclusion that this verse above, does not make you say that God and Jesus were of the same Sprit? [Tweety]
Tweety, don't you see that if what Jesus said here is any kind of proof that he existed with the Father BEFORE he came to be as a person, then it would also be saying that we all were? Can't you see that? He is saying that we ALL BE ONE AS THEY ARE ONE. So if this means to you that Jesus was pre-existent, then if we are the same, then we would have to be pre-existent also. Sure they were of the same Spirit, but so are we. We are of the same Spirit, the Holy Ghost, that they are of. If we are all ONE, as Paul stated in Galatians, then does that mean we all were pre-existent? It would have to, if it means that for Jesus. Jesus was a human person, just exactly the same as I am. He still has his own individuality. Now back to my annology of the pink earth>>> You know that a lot of Scripture mentions the green grass, the green trees, green pastures, green food etc. So I think I would be very safe in claiming that God says the earth is green, don't you? After all, green grass, green herbs, green bushes and trees cover this earth. So Now if you found a verse saying there is A pink flower, and you say this means the earth is pink. Don't you think it would be safer to say the earth is green? You could look at the verse which says a flower is pink, and say to me, where does this not say the earth is pink. Is that sensible? No it is not. The burden of proof is on the person claiming something which the Word does not expressly say. I have proven with Scritpure after Scripture that Jesus is not an eternal being. So you must prove that he was. I have proven over and over positively that there is not such thing taught in Scripture as a trinity. Yet you say it clearly teaches it. So as I have already asked many, many times.....show me one verse which CLEARLY teaches this. The burden of proof is on your part. I have already proven trinity is A LIE. I have already proven that Jesus was not an eternal spirit, for he died. he was born of a woman. These things are not true of an eternal spirit. The word clearly says so in Hebrews, so if you claim different, then you MUST find a verse which does clearly SAY SO. Either do it, or search for some other truth. JO |
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You said: What about this verse? John 17:24 (KJV)
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Understand that when Jesus was praying all of this prayer he was not crucified. So Jesus is saying that he wants all repentant sinners to be in heaven where he was. So they can behold his glory that he had when he was in heaven before. (Tweety, look how you have added words here which are NOT written here). look how you put WAS, past tense, when it is not in the verse.) What about this passage? John 17:25-26 (KJV)
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. I ask you what is meant here when Jesus says that the world has not known the FATHER? But he has? Are you thinking that he knows him because he studied man's word on him? NO! He knew Him because he was in heaven before he was sent here in flesh form to save the world from the penalty of sin which is death. (notice that here again you ADDED words which are NOT written in this verse. This is where you are missing the truth and coming up with error).
Now Tweety, I am taking everything you have said and addressed it. I want you to do the same with what I have written on each of these threads you gave. I know you may not have time to do it all at once, but just keep working on it as you can. I will do the same. (right now I am so excited over what God gave me on the two trees, till I just want to dig right into that. I think it will help you see this also) This is the only way discussing will help anyone. If all I say is just overlooked then I am just working in vain, and the person I am dealing with, will never learn anything. |
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What you won't read in the scripture is that the godhead is comprised of three persons. The word "person" is a common expression used by Trinitarians to articulate/ denote 'individuality' and 'self awareness' of each member of the Trinity. God Almighty is not three distinct and personal 'persons' that form one being of God, ACCORDING TO THE BIBLICAL SCRIPTURES. How can one, be two, three, or more? Trinitarians tell us that the trinity can't be explained. Perhaps they're right!! Because the scripture does not elude to a Godhead comprised of three persons. The scripture keeps "all things in alignmnent" because "all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitiable for DOCTRINE.....Tim 3:16 Doctine is proven by the whole word of God. One scripture does not make a doctrine.
Isaiah 43:9-12
9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.
10 Ye are my (singular) witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.
12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. (Not we are GOD!)
If the "us and our" in Genesis 1:26 scripturally proves a Godhead comprised of three persons --then by the same token-- St John 1:29 proves Jesus Christ was an actual lamb with four legs. Those that understand the truth know better.... |
Let's be honest with the Word of God, for the sake of finding TRUTH. the Word does not say that the Godhead is made up of 1 person either. What it does say is this: | But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. |
...the HEAD of Christ is God. Agree? See, this is what Godhead means = those in authority over others. it is NOT saying how many are in God or what God is made up of. That is man's playground (for making up false doctrine). Now, babes in Christ need tender nourishment and care. So let's remember we are dealing with mostly babes. Their paid hirelings have fed them watered down sugar water so long, they have not grown up. Truth will grow you up. So lets feed the sheep some strong food and grow them up a bit. a lack of knowing certain key facts has led to all this misunderstanding. See, the word, LORD, spelled with all four caps, is speaking about God, the father. When our Lord is referred to, as Jesus, our Saviour, it is spelled with only one cap = Lord. Now when a person believes in only 1 as you all do, naturally this will make no sense to you. But believe me, this is one of the main reasons the Jesus-only doctrine has been misled. Also, I once believed it just as much as you all do. But God himself spoke directly to me and told me it is not true. Then He started teaching me Himself and it is most glorious. Now the Scripture you quote in Isaiah 43 is God the Father speaking. It is NOT Jesus. and this is why you misunderstand it. True, no God was formed after the one true God, which is a kingdom of Spirit beings. Jesus was not formed as a God after them. Only after Jesus had obeyed God in all things, even in death, did God then grant to Jesus to be married to the Lord God and thus become ONE WITH THE GOD KINGDOM. He was given all the same power and authority as God himself has. He was granted to sit on the very throne of God, in heaven, and rule and be worshipped as God. This is the glorious TRUTH of our Saviour, Jesus. He was and is the ONE AND ONLY HUMAN TO EVER BE SET IN THIS HIGH POSITION. the only way we will ever be there is to be baptized into the one body of Jesus Christ with the baptism of the Holy Ghost according to Acts 2. Then after our resurrection into glorification, we will be married to Jesus and become ONE WITH HIM IN HIS GLORY, WHICH HIS FATHER GAVE TO HIM. This is not another God being formed, it is the one true God granting to the over comers to be where Jesus is. Jesus was set up by God to become our God and that we should worship God's Son. Now that is what the Word of God teaches. |
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| Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. | | To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. |
Now there is solid proof that the throne of God and of Jesus are two different thrones. Jesus said I will grant the overcomers to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame (now did God have to overcome?).. and am set down with (now does one sit WITH themselves?).. my (shows possession) Father in HIS (shows someone other than the speaker) throne. Now how could this ever fit into a Jesus-only doctrine? It is impossible. You would have to call Jesus himself a lie to stand against this Scripture, which so clearly shows that the Father is not Jesus. Jesus is OUR Father, but God is his Father. |
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Here is something I answer on the apostolic group I am with, when one of the quoted 1tim 2: 5 saying, there is one God......... and left out the rest of that verse. Here it is, correctly quoted:
The verses you quote from Isaiah are GOD speaking, not JESUS. Jesus is not God, never claimed to be.
God is speaking to Jesus in prophecy and tells Jesus I will not give my glory to another. He gave it to no one except his son, Jesus, after his resurrection. ********* ********* ********* Why did you quote only PART of this verse? Is it to deceive with? Do you not realize that this is being dishonest with God, with God's word? Do you not fear to do this? | For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; |
Is it because you knew that the full verse is exactly OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO TEACH? Read it in full, (IT IS SIN TO TAKE AWAY FROM GOD'S WORD. Do you realize that God said he will take your part out of the Book of Life if you do this? Do you not fear to take away part of this verse to try and make it say something other than what it DOES SAY?) There is one God, AND one (see something else) MEDIATOR BETWEEN (now that shows someone going between two others; God and us) between God and men, THE MAN, Christ Jesus. (not the god Jesus, eh?) Now that does not say what you said at all does it? the others are the same way. But for now, everyone needs to focus on this discripency in dealing with God's Word, It is a DANGEROUS thing to take away from God's Word or add to it, to try to fit it into man's false doctrine. |
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Dear Freeborn, This passage that I showed you, which is Phil. 2:5 and versed below for everyone to read. This is the Kenosis of Christ. Kenosis comes from the Greek word: kenoo. It means to empty out or drain. This word is translated to make void as you would read in Roman 4:14, and also 1Cor.9:15. And Kenosis also can mean "make of none effect" (1Cor. 1:17), "be in vain" (2Cor.9:3) and what we are talking about to "make of no reputation" which basically means Jesus Christ emptied himself of equality with God for if he were God on earth with all Godly powers, it would defeat the purpose of him being like us while on earth(Php. 2:6-7, John 14:28, 1Cor.11:3), His God form (which is a Spirit body that he had from all eternity, to take upon a human form when he was born) This right here proves that he was in heaven with God before he came to earth. You can not have a Spirit body and be here on earth. Then you would not be like us (Flesh).(Php 2:6-8, Php 3:21, Matt.1:18-25, Luke 1:35, John 1:14, Luke 24:37-40, Zech.13:6, Gal. 4:4, Rom. 8:3). Jesus Christ did not have immortality. So he gave up that also to be like us. We die in the flesh, So he died in the flesh, in order to do that Jesus Christ gave up His immortality of His body so he could die. I know you will say that this is not in scripture, but then you would be saying that Jesus did NOT die in the flesh. Which if you look at the following sciptures you will see that he had to die for our sins and did die. (1Cor. 15:3, Ps.16:10, 1Peter 2:24, 1Peter 3:18). Jesus Christ gave up His Glory that he had before he was made human. As you can see he had this glory before the world was. If He did not have glory before HE was human, then why would he ask God to restore His glory to him? (Jn 12:23, Jn 17:5, Matt. 16:27, Php.2:5-11). He also gave up his authority in heaven and earth, which was given BACK to HIM AFTER the RESURRECTON. (Matt 28:18). Let is talk about these first and then I will move on and answer some more of your post. Have a good night. Tweety Philippians 2 Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; Now ask yourself this question: which mind is God telling us to let be in us? Is it this mind of thinking ourselves equal with God, or is it this humble mind of being a servant of God? See, the mind which he wants to be in us, is the mind which Jesus had on earth. It is not telling us that Jesus had this mind and form before he was born. It is merely telling us that at some time Jesus did have this form, and that is when he was exalted by God, after his resurrection. |
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Dear Tweety, I know you are trying and God will reward this in you. Just pray and seek for the truth. Get willing to see the truth, no matter what it is. As long as you seek to prove a certain doctrine, or uphold a certain man or church, you will blind yourself. Also you must find Scripture which says what you are saying. There is no Scripture which says Jesus existed before Jesus was born. No Verse says that Jesus emptied himself of any God powers and became a helpless man. I have already explained much of these verses. you just need to read what I wrote you. Study it. Compare it with the verses you give here. right now I will not have time to check each of them. You find and quote them. I have a few. I seen absolutly nothing in the verses which you give saying anything of this sort. Maybe you gave the wrong referrence. check it out. For instance this: | For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. |
What is in that verse which could even remotely pertain to this subject of what you call 'kenosis'. A term which is not Scriptural. | But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void. |
Again I see no connection in that verse. If you do, please show me. | Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. | | Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. | | But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. | | And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. | | Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, | | Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. | | Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: | | And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. |
Again there is nothing of the sort mentioned in the above verses. | And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God |
Nothing there either saying this Son of God existed before in a spirit body. Tweety, this is nothing but made up interpretations, taken from the lies already circulated in the world. Jo |
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