By faith we can call the things which are not yet done, as though they were from the foundation of the world. Many times this is how Jesus was speaking and carnal minded men have mistaken it to mean he was saying he had already been crucified, or lived, long before he even got here. Jesus BELIEVED the Word of God, so He could claim the promises of God as though they were already fulfilled. So can I. I can believe that God has promised me a glorified body, so I can say I already have it or had it from the eternities of old, because I count that the Word of God cannot fail.

This is exactly what Abraham was doing here: Ro 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Ro 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

Notice that God had said to Abraham, when as yet he had no child, I HAVE (past tense) made thee a father of many nations. So does this mean that it had already happened before Abraham even had a child? No. It is the same kind of speech Jesus was using when he spoke of things not yet done, as though they already were, from of old. Abraham showed us right here what Jesus was doing = calling those things which be not as though they were.

Wonder why these carnal minded serpent commentators did not find the true interpretation from these Scriptures instead of making up false doctrines? The Catholic Church started these lies about a triune god. Why did the entire church world follow suit, instead of studying the Scriptures as Jesus admonished us to do and find the true, written interpretation. Now the above is the true interpretation for every place Jesus ‘seemed�?to be speaking of having lived long before he lived. He was calling, BY FAITH, the things which are not as though they were, for this is how FAITH in manifest. Do you have this faith. Can you say, I am not of this world? Can you say before Abraham was I am? I can and I do. I can say I am a member of the God kingdom right now. I can say I am a glorified being right now, for I believe that God which promised cannot lie.

God told the Israelites “The Lord thy God is one Lord�? Now I find that the church says this should have said “The lord thy God is a triune being of three divine person, or thy God is a trinity�? According to Dakes and all the church world, God got this wrong.

Wonder why God never at any time told us the truth of all this? Wonder why God never once said Thy God is a trinity? Thy God is a triune being, made up of three divine persons? I just simply cannot find where God or Jesus or the Apostles or Moses ever told us such things.

Ok, now let's take up John 17. People so misuse this chapter to try and uphold their false doctrine.

Once you learn the true principal, you can see it throughout all Scripture. But to those who believe the lies, they also think they see it throughout Scripture, for they understand not spiritual faith talk. They ‘read�?their lies into the words. But the Word is NOT saying what they are saying.

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: [Jesus is praying for God to glorify him so that he then can glorify God by the very glorification which God gives him.]

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. [Here Jesus acknowledges that God gave him power over all flesh, so that Jesus can in turn give eternal life to those God gave him. If he were equal with God, why would God have to give him this power?]

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. [This is a very important and misunderstood verse. Jesus is saying that eternal life is to know his Father, which the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ whom God sent. So this proves that the Father is the only true God.]

John17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. [Here Jesus says that he finished work which God gave Jesus to do. He had taught the world the Word of God.]

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. [Now here is where the false doctrine says that Jesus is saying he had glorification with God before he came to be born on earth. But Jesus has said no such thing here. If you try to interpret this verse as such, then you HAVE to find another verse which does actually SAY this. If no verse says this, then you must find proof in other Scriptures of what this is really saying. So where is proof? In Genesis. Adam, (mankind) had eternal life to begin with. God gave that first race of people the ability to never die, if they had never sinned. So this is the glory Jesus is praying for. It proves it in the next verse, as Jesus prays not only for himself, but all of his children. If you doubt this, show me one verse saying that Jesus lived in a pre-existent state. Show me one verse referring to any incarnation. That is not taught anywhere in Scripture. Jesus was neither pre-existence, nor incarnated. He would have had to be existing before in order to be incarnated. Both teachings are of Satan.]

John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. [Here Jesus shows that his disciples belonged to God first and that God gave them to Jesus.]

John 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. [Those disciples knew that all things Jesus had were given to him by God. So how could he be God himself?]

John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. [Here is solid proof that God gave his Words to Jesus. So it proves that Jesus was not the Word. The Word was a gift to Jesus from God. If you think not, prove with Scripture, not some man’s interpretation of Scripture, that Jesus is the same as the word. Remember also, there was a man sent from God, which was John. So if these words mean that Jesus came from heaven to earth, then so did John.]

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. [Here Jesus prays for all his people to be ONE as (same way) God and Jesus are ONE. So now does this make us all pre-existent? Does this make us all be the very same person? Such foolish thinking!]

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [Again Jesus proclaims that he gave his disciples the Word. Did they takes bites of Jesus�?human flesh? No! So why claim that Jesus�?human flesh or body is the FLESH which he ate? It is spiritual food, Word, which we must EAT. If you are believing and ‘swallowing�?these lies of man, you are not eating the same FLESH which Jesus and his disciples ate.]

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. So does this mean that the disciples also existed before they were born? They are in the same state Jesus is. He clearly shows that right here. I am not of the world either.]

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. [So if God sending Jesus means he came from heaven to earth, then here Jesus would be saying the disciples also came from heaven to earth. He SENT them the very same way God sent Jesus. Learn to read the Word as it is given.]

John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. [Now there is the evidence that Jesus was praying for the glorification of all his saints, not just himself. So if he had it before, so did we. He is praying here for us ALL to be ONE as he and His Father are ONE. This clearly does away with both FALSE DOCTRINES -- THE TRINITY LIE AND THE JESUS ONLY LIE. If you believe the truth of these verses, you cannot hold to either of those false doctrines of man.]

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. [So you think this verse proves that Jesus lived before the foundation of the world? Then you must find proof that this is the right interpretation of this verse. You must find it clearly stated in some other verses. No, that is not the true interpretation. I have already shown in this message the truth of it. God knew the end from the beginning and loved Jesus and us from all eternity. It is not just Jesus, it is all of us.]

So now let the teachers and believers of the two false doctrines, take these same verses, as I have, one at a time and prove their false teachings with these same words. I say it cannot be done. Nowhere in this chapter is it told that Jesus lived before he lived here. Nowhere does it say that God is a trinity, or that Jesus is God and the only one. Both doctrines are fully and clearly denied here.

Jo Smith

Paul speaks of Him as existing before all things and as the Creator and Upholder of all things (Col. l:15-18 Heb. 1:1-3, 8; 2:10). God the Father created all things by Him (Eph. 3:9) and the Holy Spirit (Gen. 1:2). [dakes]

OK, let's just see if Paul called Jesus the creator. I will show you how these 'smart, scholars' have misread Scripture, making false doctrines.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: [Now really read this verse. Did Paul really say that Jesus was the creator here? Of course not. It is saying that God created all things. By, is a preposition. This means that the words following are NOT the subject of a sentence. So GOD is the subject here. GOD is the one said to have created all things. ‘by Jesus Christ�?is a prepositional phrase, explaining something about how God did this creating. He is staying true to the other Scriptures which show that Jesus was the PATTERN by which God did the creating. He told Moses, be sure you make it by the PATTERN shown to you. This PATTERN was Jesus. Jesus is the beginning of a new creation of God, of making men into the likeness of God. This is the resurrected Christ. So nothing here states that Jesus is the creator. It is misreading this verse.]

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. Eph 3:13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

OK, lets take a look at the reference in Colossians. Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; [increasing in the knowledge of God…so here, God is our subject, again.]

Col 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: [giving thanks unto the Father…so Father is our subject. Many false teachings came from not know who is being spoken about.]

Col 1:13 Who (still speaking of God the Father) hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. [Here is clearly means that the Father reconciled all things unto HIMSELF by Jesus, his son]

So the above Scripture is clearly saying that the Father translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. So in the Father we have redemption through the blood of his son. So it shows this son is the image of the invisible God, and the son is the firstborn of every creature. But notice, in verse 16, it again is speaking about the subject of our study here, the Father. It is saying that by the Father all things were created by him and for him. It pleased the Father that in this firstborn from the dead, the fullness of the Godhead should dwell. This was fulfilled in Hebrews one, when God the Father gave to Jesus, his son, all power in heaven and earth, to sit upon the throne of God and rule as God, one with God.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Again, we see that GOD is the subject here, not the Son. It is saying that even though God spoke to us in the past by other means, he is now speaking to us by his Son. It is saying that God appointed his Son to be heir of all things. It is saying again that by the perfect PATTEREN of this Son, he made the worlds. Nothing here shows that Jesus is this creator.

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. [These verses show where God made Jesus to be God with God and set him upon his own throne and God anointed Jesus with the oil of gladness above his fellows.]

Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.