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From: joie (Original Message)

Sent: 8/20/2001 3:19 PM

1John 2:7--Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

The old commandment is the WORD which ye had from the BEGINNING.

v8---Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness (law) is past, and the true light (Jesus) now shineth.

The law came by Moses; grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

11John 5--And now I beseech thee, lady,(church), not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

See, this commandment is to love one another. (period)

v6----And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard FROM THE BEGINNING, ye should walk in it.

Moses law was 450 years AFTER the promise given to Abraham; therefore it could not be the Word WE HEARD FROM THE BEGINNING.

God gave them laws which were not good; and laws by which they could not live. (Eze.)

No flesh shall be justified by the law.

The law he put into our hearts is the one from the beginning, that we love one another. Love fulfills the law; Jesus loved; He fulfilled the law and thereby did away with it.

To cling to the law is to bypass justification.

Life could not come by the law.

Choose ye this day life or death; law or grace. Which will it be?

I choose life which is grace; which is the commandment, the word we heard from the beginning; not the law 450 years later.

From: Jim

Sent: 8/21/2001 11:37 PM

Hi, Jo. Me again.

Of course I have chosen life also and try to live by the law of love. I know very little about which laws are which, only that there are Moses' law, the ceremonial law, and the civil law. I am probably more familiar with verses about the differing laws.

However, though I know I am not under the law (for salvation), I feel obliged to the law (for instruction in righteousness).

If you could be a little more specific as to the issue of this posting, I will try to comment.

Prove all things,

Jim

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Message 3 of 20 in Discussion

From: joie

Sent: 8/21/2001 11:59 PM

Law keepers believe that it is necessary to have the law of Moses in order to know what is sin and what is not. They think they need this law in order to know what righteousness is.

But this is very easily disproven. This is so simple I fail to understand how so very many people have missed it. Now I ask you a question: how did Abraham know what was sin? How did he know what was righteousness?

Abraham lived 450 years before Moses gave any law!!!! Now, how did Abraham know what was right and wrong?

Answer this and you will know the truth.

If I had never heard of the law; never read a word of it; and had the Holy Ghost in my heart, that Holy Spirit would teach me to love righteousness and hate iniquity!!!!

You people believing it is the law which teaches this are denying the work of the Holy Ghost.

Figure this out.

Ga 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ga 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Ga 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

Ga 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

This clearly shows that we who began in the Spirit, or Grace, are not now made perfect by the flesh, or law. Almost every ‘Sabbath�?person I have ever heard, believe that after they made a start in Grace, they must then revert back to law to know what is right. How foolish! If the Spirit of God cannot teach us what is right and wrong, then there is absolutely nothing true about God.

From: ~Rebecca~

Sent: 8/22/2001 12:24 AM

Here is your proof:

St.John 16:7-13

7. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9. Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10. Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11. Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye connot bear them now.

13. Howbeit when he the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

Now, don't you see that this says it is the Holy Ghost who teaches us truth in the N.T.? It is the Holy Ghost who reproves of sin. It is the Holy Ghost who leads and guides the Christian; not the LAW!!

Now, this is the reason law keepers believe they must go by the law; they have the law; not the Holy Ghost. That is why you do not know the Holy Ghost is our teacher in the day of Grace. You are still under the O.T. Covenant. There is no salvation there.

Rebecca,

Manager

From: Jim

Sent: 8/22/2001 1:30 AM

Jo,

"Law keepers ..." Who are they?

"You people ..." To whom are you speaking?? Are you speaking to me, Jim?

"Figure this out ..." This sounds taunting to me (a stranger to you guys), certainly not spoken in kindness. Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Rebecca,

"Here is your proof ..." To whom are you speaking with these dry sounding words? Are you speaking to me, Jim? Whatever happened to charity?

"Now don't you see ..." Whatever happened to humility?

If I have not erred in thinking you were speaking to me, I perceive that I am not in God's house afterall. I speak to your shame!

For this cause, God has commanded us to study to be quiet.

If you were not speaking to me, please forgive me for assuming that which was not true.

Jim

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Message 6 of 20 in Discussion

From: joie

Sent: 8/22/2001 3:07 PM

You know who we are speaking to; and it is not 'Jim'.

You are no stranger to us. Law keepers are those of you who feel you must still keep the 7th day sabbath; must tithe; must go to church one day a week; must have the law to teach you and instruct you in righteousness. You said yourself, in your first post above, that you believe you must have the law to instruct you in righteousness.

Now, we gave you the Word of God, that this is the job of the Holy Ghost; not the law. People understood righteousness hundreds of years before the law.

Don't take these things so personally; it will only hinder the learning process. We are not here to pet, pamper, or soft-soap the truth. That will only lead people into destruction. Only accepting the truth as a good soldier of Jesus, will one be saved in the end. Besides, how is saying, 'here is your proof' anything bad to a person? how do you make evil of that? seems clear to me, the evil is in your own mind.

We are trying to help deliver you from the bondage of that law.

Now if you refuse to be set free, we can not help that; that is your choice to make.

You believe (not just you, all law keepers)---that the law was given to teach righteousness; right the opposite is true.

Read Romans 7:7---What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid, Nay, I had not known sin, BUT BY THE LAW: for I had not KNOWN LUST, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

v8....For without the law sin was DEAD.

v9---For I was alive without the law once: (mankind before the law of Moses)---but when the commandment came, SIN REVIVED, AND I DIED.

v10--And the commandment which was ordained to life, I found to be unto DEATH.

Now, dear friend, the Law was the tree of the KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.

Grace is the Tree of Life.

Don't you see this clearly taught here? That the knowledge of sin came by the law? The law did not give the knowledge of righteousness; it gave the knowledge of sin. The law is the strength of sin. Where there is no law there is no sin.

Read the whole chapter of Romans 7. It tells that the law brought men into captivity and bondage; made them wretched and brought death.

My Dear Friends, do be set free by Jesus.

From: Jim

Sent: 8/22/2001 3:14 PM

Hi, Jo.

What I read here confuses me.

Jo, there are no greetings at the beginning of your message 6. To whom have you written it?

Bro. Jim

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Message 8 of 20 in Discussion

From: ravola

Sent: 8/22/2001 11:22 PM

i just dont see any reason to be upset if a post is not addresed to a particular person. i almost never address mine to anyone; they are meant for the whole community. maybe that is what joie did.

when the teachers teach they must speak in a different tone than those of us who cannot teach. a school teacher does not speak as the students. it is the same with spiritual teching. they must use authority. that makes it sound like they are being judgmental when it is not meant that weay. i learned this in sunday school.

ravola

From: Beffers

Sent: 8/24/2001 1:11 AM

Joie said in black:

"Law keepers believe that it is necessary to have the law of Moses in order to know what is sin and what is not."

Joie, with all due respect, how many people in these communities have to tell you that this is not true before you'll listen? Time and time again you are told that this is not so. The law of Moses was done away with at the cross. Col. 2:14-17 The Ten Commandments are not, I repeat, are not part of the Mosaic laws. The Mosaic laws were put in the side of the ark. The Ten Commandments were put in the ark.

"They think they need this law in order to know what righteousness is."

The law (Ten Commandments) shows us what sin is. Sin is the opposite of righteousness. The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin and righteousness. John 16:8 The Holy Spirit tells us when we are disobedient to God's Commandments. If we know what sin is we know what righteousness is. The law does show what righteousness is because they are righteous. But we cannot understand without the help of the Holy Spirit.

Psalm 119:172 "My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness."

"Abraham lived 450 years before Moses gave any law!!!! Now, how did Abraham know what was right and wrong?"

That's easy, by the law. Genesis 26:5 "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." If the law did not exist how did God say Abraham kept them? Joie please allow the Scripture to interpret itself. God gave the law through His Spirit. The Ten Commandment law was given again at Sinai by Moses because the children of Israel lost track of them and their importance while in bondage.

Joie, if you speak total truth please explain some contradictions you made.

Joie says in black, the Bible says in red:

"Now, I know you all say you do it out of love; well, then why did Peter tell them not to go back to the law? Surely, if it is o.k. to keep it out of love, they would have known and told them. But, they said right the opposite; not to keep it."

The Scriptures say:

Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law" Paul says it's established.

Proverbs 7:2 "Keep my Commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye"

John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my Commandments"

Eccl. 12:13 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."

Joie says "do not keep it". The Word says "keep it". Somethings wrong here.

"Jesus had to keep the law; for he was under the law. He had to keep it all in order to fulfill it and do away with it."

Psalm 111:7 "The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure."

Psalm 119:98 "Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.

"Col.2:14-17---Blotting out the hand-writing of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross--v16--includes the sabbath days---v17---which are a SHADOW of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

It says handwritings of ordinances. Not Commandments. These ordinances are of the law of Moses. The sabbath days spoken here are the 7 annual Jewish sabbaths. Not the 7th day Sabbath of the week. Joie, read the verse, not into the verse.

Joie, did you know that "fulfilled" carries another meaning other than finished? It can also mean complete, perfect, satisfy, accomplish. The definition of "fulfilled" Joie as pertaining to the law simply means this: God's grace makes "complete" the law within our hearts. It is "perfected" in our hearts. Jesus "satisfied" the requirements of the law. "Death" Thus, we are no longer under its penalty. We are no longer "under" the law. Under its condemnation. Christ "accomplished" at the cross what we could not accomplish. The law is important only that it is the standard by which we will be judged. James 2:12 It shows us what sin is. It can't save us. The law was not finished Joie, only the requirements of the law. What the law demands; "Death"

"...just remember that keeping the law takes you away from Christ."

Psalm 111.10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever."

Psalm 112:1 "Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments."

Psalm 119:151 "Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth."

Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

Now please tell me, do these verses show the law taking us away from Christ? How does a professed follower of Christ teach this falsehood? "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." Romans 7:12 Is something that God declares as holy and good going to keep us away from Christ? How utterly absurd!!

Now Joie your last and most obvious contradiction. You said in C&A:

"The New Church was given only ONE commandment = to love one another"

Mathew 22:37-39 says: "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

Joie, how do you expect anyone to believe what you say, to learn from you, and to understand you when you can't even get one of the most academic teachings in God's Word correct? Two commandments were given, not one.

Joie (and her gang), you need to rightly divide the Word of God and not put your own interpretations in it. If you want people to listen, you must not contradict the Word. May God bless you!

Beffers

From:

P-r-a-y

Sent: 8/24/2001 9:20 AM

<DIR>

Mat 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

From: joie

Sent: 8/24/2001 9:29 AM

Beffers,

You are in complete error. I have answered this question with the Word of God. Here it is again: 1John 2:7---Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an OLD COMMANDMENT (this is singular)---which ye had   FROM   THE BEGINNING. The   OLD   COMMANDMENT (SINGULAR, AGAIN)---IS THE WORD WHICH YE HAVE HEARD    from the   beginning.

The  Word which was from the Beginning, was hundreds of years before Moses. There is absolutly   NO   mention of any 10 commandments before Moses. How can you say this is not the law of Moses, when it is precisley the 10 commandments which were given to Moses on Mt. Sinai?

Now, I ask you, before God and these members of this board, Give us a Scripture in Gen. (the book of beginnings)---any mention or command to keep any sabbath day. Give us any Scripture in Gen. where they were told to keep   ANY   commandments. I tell you it is not there!!!

To LOVE   is not two commandments: the command is singular---LOVE.

The 10 commandments are never mentioned till Moses went up on that mountain, and they were written down in stone; the very ones Paul said was done away with in 11Cor.3: 7-   But if the ministratrion of   DEATH (THAT IS WHAT THOSE COMMANDMENTS WERE---DEATH) written and engraven in STONES, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance: which glory was to be    DONE AWAY:

Now, Beffers, do you understand English?   This plainly said those 10 commandments, written on stones, was death, and was done away with.

I tell you, I believe Paul, not you. You are calling this Word a lie. You are a false brother; trying to stand in the way of truth being taught. You are withstanding the Word of God.

You have only your own words; not Scripture to say those 10 commandments were before Moses; and that they are still what we live by today. You are right tho, that they will judge you. But those of us who walk in the spirit and not the law, will not be judged. We are free from sin; for where there is no law, there is no sin.

I have no 'gang'. This shows you resort to ugliness to try to tear down a teacher of grace. I have never resorted to this kind of ugliness; i don't have to. I teach by the Scripture. Everything I say, I say it with Scripture. I gave you Scripture saying those commandments written on stone were done away with; that they were death.

If this is not talking about the 10 commandments, find and show us another place where some other commandments or ordinanaces were written on stone. If you have truth, show us the Word to verify it.

Don't just make accusations. Bring forth the proof in the Word.

Prove by the beginning Word, Gensis, that they kept a weekly Sabbath day. It is not there. Salvation brings one to worship of God every day, just as Abraham did. He did not keep any weekly Sabbath. I challange you to show one Word of Scripture saying he did.

All those Scriptures you listed refer to this commandment we had from the beginning; this did not include those 10 commandments. Those were laws that were not good; and laws by which they could not live. How could they live by them, when they were death?

You are in the same position as those in the Word who withstood Moses, Paul, Peter and John.

You are in darkness.

Jo

From: Beffers

Sent: 8/25/2001 4:43 AM

Joie, I knew I would get a response such as yours. I've dealt with you before and I've been warned before to expect this. Shame on me. Why is it you get so uptight when someone disagrees with you? Your demeaner is inconsistant with Christian principles. I hope that changes; and soon!

Your replies are in red and mine are in black.

You are in complete error. I have answered this question with the Word of God. Here it is again: 1John 2:7---Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an OLD COMMANDMENT (this is singular)---which ye had FROM THE BEGINNING. The OLD COMMANDMENT (SINGULAR, AGAIN)---IS THE WORD WHICH YE HAVE HEARD from the beginning.

Are you kidding me? I think a grammar lesson is in order here. Just because the word "Commandment" doesn't have an "s" doesn't mean it's singular. If you look up the meaning you'll see it carries something quite different. It means "precept", "injunction" or it can mean "authoritative prescription." These terms, though appearing to be singular in name may contain many elements. For example: When you think of the "law", it appears singular but contains many elements; the 10 Commandments, the law of "ordinances" or (using your own description) the law of "love". Though the word is singular it comprises two parts; love God and love your neighbor. Thus your description above saying the "commandment" is singular is not accurate. The commandment from the beginning, God's spoken word contains the 10 Commandments. How do we know this? Look at the next section.

The Word which was from the Beginning, was hundreds of years before Moses. There is absolutly NO mention of any 10 commandments before Moses. How can you say this is not the law of Moses, when it is precisley the 10 commandments which were given to Moses on Mt. Sinai?

The Commandments before Sinai:

First: Genesis 35: 2-4, Second: Genesis 31: 19:34, Third: Genesis 12: 3, Fourth: Exodus 16: 4-26, Fifth: Genesis 9: 20-25, Sixth: Genesis 4: 8-15, Seventh: Genesis 39: 9, Eighth: Genesis 44: 8,16, Ninth: Genesis 27: 12,Tenth: Genesis 25: 29-34; Genesis 27

No mention of any 10 Commandments Joie? If there were no 10 Commandments given then how did these sins appear? Remember, "Where there is no law there is no sin?" But the above shows all the sins of the 10 Commandments. You have sin, you must have law.

Now, I ask you, before God and these members of this board, Give us a Scripture in Gen. (the book of beginnings)---any mention or command to keep any sabbath day. Give us any Scripture in Gen. where they were told to keep ANY commandments. I tell you it is not there!!!

C'mon Joie, you can't be serious. Read Gen. 2:2-3. God rested on the 7th day Joie. But that's not all He did the 7th day, he also "sanctified" it (set apart for holy use). He also "blessed" it. Now Joie why don't you stop here and think for a moment, why would God rest when he needed no rest? Why would God sanctify a specific day and make it holy if there would be no one to benefit from it? Certainly God doesn't benefit from it. And finally what of Exodus 16: 4-26? The "miracle of the manna?" He rained down on the children of Israel (each day) enough manna for one days ration. But on the sixth day He rained down a double portion. Why? It's obvious. So they wouldn't gather any on the Sabbath day. Remember? God made that day holy at creation. Well, Joie said there was no command. God says there was or else why the special day of manna? Why not collect it all seven days if it's not important, or as you put it, not even existing? Only through unrepentence and the self induced blindness can this be denied.

To LOVE is not two commandments: the command is singular---LOVE.

Here Joie I agree. I believe we are both correct in our descriptions but misunderstood by both of us. I understand what you are saying now and I hope you understand where I was coming from. To love is a singular command but it is comprised of two separate commands. Love each other and God. But in essence this makes up one. This is just semantics. No real reason that this should be a stumbling block.

Now, Beffers, do you understand English? This plainly said those 10 commandments, written on stones, was death, and was done away with.

This is in reference to 1 Cor. 3:7. Oh, by the way Joie, I'll ignore the sarcasm. The same type of sarcasm you complain about when it is directed to you. Do I sense a bit of hypocracy here? As for 1 Cor. 3:7, it is amazing you have conditioned yourself to dislike Sabbath keeping so much that it has you believing the God of the universe would actually do away with law. Law is necessary for the existence of a peacefull society. And you have yourself believing just the opposite. Anyway, this verse is so simple in its meaning and so profound in its impact on mankind. Please read very, very closely to the following: it is in blue: The meaning of 1 Cor. 3:7,8.

Paul is contrasting the two covenants. the tables of stone versus the tables of the heart, the letter versus the Spirit, the ministration of death versus the ministration of the Spirit, and the ministration of condemnation versus the ministration of righteousness.

Please notice Joie that the Ten Commandment law was not the old covenant and was not done away. It was the ministration of the law, not the law itself, that was done away. This was accomplished through Christ (as we all know), when He delivered us from the curse of condemnation and death. The glory of His ministration of righteousness was so much greater than the glory of the law, that it outshown and "did away with" the former glory. On the tables of stone the literal letter of the law demanded death. There was no grace or life-giving power in the law. That same law written in the heart through the action of the Holy Spirit, brought grace, pardon, and power to obey. (See Jude 24) This was the exceeding glory of the ministration of righteousness.

Joie, one more point to remember: What was done away? Verse 7 says the glory was "to be done away" of that ministration of death. The law was not abolished, only its manner of being ministered or applied. Now it would be ministered by the Spirit on the heart instead of on the stone. But the same law functioned under both Old and New Covenants. Now I challenge you before God and this community to disprove this by Scripture.

I have no 'gang'. This shows you resort to ugliness to try to tear down a teacher of grace. I have never resorted to this kind of ugliness; i don't have to. I teach by the Scripture. Everything I say, I say it with Scripture. I gave you Scripture saying those commandments written on stone were done away with; that they were death.

Really Joie. I'm not refering to a street gang or anything of that nature, I simply ment your group or following. Perhaps I should've used a different word. I didn't think you would be that sensitive. Forgive me.

All those Scriptures you listed refer to this commandment we had from the beginning; this did not include those 10 commandments. Those were laws that were not good; and laws by which they could not live. How could they live by them, when they were death?

Go back to the beginning and see for yourself the 10 ommandments before Sinai. Also read about 1 Cor. 3:7,8

You are in darkness.

Only, and I do mean only because I do not believe nor will I spread the "gospel according to Joie." I have given much Scripture here and I have explained by them why you are misunderstanding the "law" issue. I will say this, it all stems back to your unbelief in the Sabbath of the Ten Commandments. You are so quick to say the law was abolished but just let anyone ask you if it's ok to kill, or steal, or lie, or commit adultery, or dishonor parents, or curse God and His name, or have idols, or covet, and you'll jump right out and say "oh no, of course not, Christians don't do those things." But the very second one says that you are to keep the Sabbath Day, that's DAY Joie, you say, "oh, it was done away with." Even though it is part of the ten you seperate it and throw it out. Your hatred for God's Holy day will be your undoing unless you repent. The Commandment says "DAY". The Commandment here is not the rest in Christ we receive by the forgiveness of our sins but it says "DAY". The rest in Christ's love we receive is best experienced on His holy Sabbath day.

Oh, one more thing, you said the following in "Bond Children."

Barbie is just as knowledgeable on this subject as I am and she can do just as good a job debating it as I can.

Joie, I have great respect for Barbie. She is not arrogant or proud. This statement shows you to be just the opposite. Why do you weigh Barbie's abilities against your own? Are you so righteous that you are now setting yourself up as the foundation of all knowledge and we must measure up to you?

I have more than proven (I believe) that your interpretation of Scripture is faulty. I mentioned Barbie. She is one person who believes as you do but in my opinion should receive the greater admiration. In my dealings with her, she was honest and gracious enough to let me know that everything I wrote to her on this subject made her think. She may not believe it, and she may not accept what I said. But she at least showed an open mind and heart and was willing to be taught. You will never admit anything and you will never accept knowledge from someone else. you have closed your mind and it doesn't matter if I give you a thousand Scripture, you will refuse to understand and you will refuse to admit that you just might be wrong on any given subject. You are unteachable. You have all the right answers. How sad Joie. How very sad.

Joie, remember Mathew 5:19. Remember it well. I pray your search for truth will be fulfilled. God bless!

Beffers

PS. All else aside, I am praying about your moving situation. I know it will be to your benefit and God's glory.

From: joie

Sent: 8/25/2001 12:32 PM

Beffers

Talk about insults; your post is FULL of them. You have always insulted me; then you try to say I am the one. I am used to this; I recieve it all the time.

When I said Barbie was just as knowledgeable as I, It certainly was not, as you so insultingly stated, to compare her with myself as tho I am the hight of measurement. That is you evil thought, not mine; it never even entered into my mind. I only meant that as a testiment to her knowing the truth of this subject. And since, I cannot be on this computer as much as I am at some times, I thought I might not read your posts; not answer, then you would accuse me of not being able to or unwilling to. That is all I meant. Take it any way you wish.

If you or anyone else can truly show me Scripture, without misusing it, I will certainly listen. But, Paul's writtings are full of the law being done away with. Acts 15 declares that the apostles said we do not live by law. We are not to go by law. So, how could you or anyone else find opposite? That would make their writting lies. That is where I stand.

Those Scriptures you referred to in Gen. said not one word about law. It shows just what I teach, they know righteousness without the law.

You say we need law for peaceful life; I submit to you that the world is full of law; yet there is killing, raping, stealing, violence every where, children killing, devil worship, etc,etc. Now I ask you, if law keeps peace, why do we have this condition?

If all these people were filled with LOVE we would have none of those things. Love keeps me from worshiping Satan or idols. Love keeps me from killing someone. Love keeps me from stealing from someone. Love keeps me from hurting anyone. etc. etc.

I do not adstain from killing people or stealing from them or any of these things because i fear being caught by the law and punished; I do not do these things because of love. If you can't see this, it is because you are blind. Why are people afraid to go out? Why do they lock up everything they own? Law is there; does this protect them? No. But when LOVE is in hearts, there will be no need for these things.

Your 'sabbath' keeping does not give you love; i have never seen love manifest from you.

Love is what I and the Scripture teaches. That is the only way.

If you live by law, you will loose eternal life;; for by the law shall no flesh be justified.

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From: Beffers

Sent: 8/25/2001 10:45 PM

Joie,

I apollogize for the harshness but you must understand that you are not in any position to complain. All I ask is if you are allowed to say the things you do, please allow someone else to do the same. It's not right usually, but it is fair. Let me remind you also that it is you who gets upset so easily and so fast, usually making everyone else look like the fool.

That is all I will say for this accomplishes nothing but bad blood. I will apollogize to you for the harshness of my last reply. But I ask that you step back and look at your own replies to others in this community. You are by no means innocent.

As for the contents of my reply, I have proven my position and you have not refuted it. I gave Scripture and explanations, especially on 1 Cor. 3: 7,8 and you have no comment on it. I read your discussions with Apostle and you are doing the same thing with some of his comments. Therefore, I must conclude, along with everyone else who holds to my position that you just refuse to even entertain the notion that you might just be in error. As I said before, I have more respect for someone who has an open mind and disagrees than someone who refuses all instruction and ignores all evidence given; even after they ask for it. Do not take this as an insult but take it as what myself and others believe. Take it with a grain of salt and if you choose to, just move on.

For what I said about your comment on Barbie taking your place? I probably over reacted to that and I'm sorry. But I did it because you're always right and never wrong attitude was just manifested greatly by the way you worded it.

Your replies are in blue, mine in red.

If you or anyone else can truly show me Scripture, without misusing it, I will certainly listen

Everyone who has ever dealt with you knows this is not true. The first mistake you make in that sentence is "without misusing it." Unfortunately for us who defend this position, we have to rely on you to determine if we're misusing Scripture. And I tell you the truth, as long as we disagree with you, you will usually tell us we're misusing Scripture. So it's a lose lose situation. If you continue to close your eyes to everything we say, in your eyes we will always misuse Scripture.

But, Paul's writtings are full of the law being done away with. Acts 15 declares that the apostles said we do not live by law.

I explained Pauls meaning in 1 Cor. 3: 7,8 But you have no comment on it. No, Pauls writings are not filled with being done away with. I explained it to you Joie. It's not the law he's talking about. Go back and read it again and please try not to let your predudice against Sabbath keeping stand in the way. Please!

We are not to go by law.

Not go by the law? So it's ok to break it? That's the only conclusion one can draw from this statement. Paul never says this or even hints at it. Paul is saying that (paraphrased) obedience to the law, for reasons other than love for God, cannot bring salvation. It cannot justify us. Legalism! Nothing else.

Those Scriptures you referred to in Gen. said not one word about law. It shows just what I teach, they know righteousness without the law.

Said not one word about law????? Joie, each Scripture has a specific Commandment violation. A specific sin. Every Scripture given is in the Ten Commandments. If the Commandments were not given, how in the world did these verses appear? How can they be sin according to the Word of the living God? They are there, right in front of your eyes. Printed in the Bible. These are specific violations that match perfectly what is in the contents of the Ten Commandments. Please explain how these verses got there, pointing out sin, if the Commandments didn't exist?

Now I ask you, if law keeps peace, why do we have this condition?

I think we both know the answer to this. You answered your own question in the very next paragraph. It's not because there isn't law, it's because the existing law, the Ten Commandments are being violated. It's not the law that is bad Joie but the violation of the law. It's called sin. That's why we have the chaos we do, violation of law. Sin! No love!

I do not adstain from killing people or stealing from them or any of these things because i fear being caught by the law and punished; I do not do these things because of love

I'm going to say this very loud and strong so you and everyone else will hear (see) it. I absolutely agree with you. We keep the Commandments of God because they are written in our hearts and we obey them because we love Jesus. Commandment keeping is always, I repeat always the fruit of love for God. It is not because we want his favor or salvation, but because we want to obey Him. Obedience is the fruit of love. That doesn't eliminate (void) the law Joie, it establishes it in our hearts. Romans 3:31

Your 'sabbath' keeping does not give you love; i have never seen love manifest from you.

Joie, you have been told by many many people, including myself that we do not keep the Sabbath for the reason you give above. How many countless times does it have to be repeated for your eyes to see? As I stated above, we keep it because we love Jesus, God commanded it at creation, and it is a part of the Ten Commandments. The law written in our hearts. The law of love. That's why Jesus said "if you love me, keep my Commandments." That's plural, 10 of them. If you don't want to obey them, Jesus calls you a liar Joie 1 John 2:4 We keep the law because we love Jesus. No other reason.

You have never seen love manifested from me? May I suggest you post every reply I've ever posted in here and C&A and let the community decide. I'll abide by their opinions.

If you live by law, you will loose eternal life;; for by the law shall no flesh be justified.

This is correct! I agree. If we live believing the law can save us, and that we are attempting to earn God's favor by obeying the law, then we can never be justified. We can never be in harmony with God's character. But, when we accept by faith the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, and the Holy Spirit begins His sanctifying work in us, the law is manifested within us (written in our hearts), and obedience to the law, the Ten Commandments becomes a delight. We obey the law because (as you said above) we love Him. The Sabbath is part of the Ten Commandments and therefore is also, along with the rest of the nine, written upon our hearts. You cannot take the 4th Commandment out and separate it from the other nine. They stand together.

Hope this enlightens you even more. God bless!

Beffers

From: joie

Sent: 8/25/2001 11:18 PM

Beffers,

I do not get 'upset' as you and so many others accuse me of. When I come back with Scripture for my answers, you all take it that way. I have never said anything about how you talk to me; except in reaction to you accusations to me. I love to debate with people about the Word.

This helps us all. You just gave a very beautiful defence of what you believe. You put a lot of work and feelings into it. It was very nicely worded.

But, I want you to try to understand this thing about me. I can not go back on what God has already taught me; just because others do not see it. That would be backing up. I just can't do that. It is not that I can not and will not listen to others; it is that God has already taught me these things out of His Word. I do not say this to brag; please try to see this; but only to help you understand my position a little bit.

I started out in the Baptist church. They taught me their stuff. But one day, God spoke to me and told me to leave that church and never go back. It was as plain as if you had spoken to me.

Then, I went into the Pentecostal Chruch. I loved it there. But one day God told me to leave it, also. I then went into a couple more moves. But, through all of this, I HUNGERED for the Word. They never taught me the Word.

I studied the Word since childhood. But, the 'blinders' of their teachings kept me from understanding.

After God told me to stop going to church---He took over my life---He Himself, began to teach me. He taught me how to live by faith. Up until then, I had no idea how to really HAVE FAITH. And I LONGED to know FAITH. I never found it in any church.

I studied many church's teachings. It did not help any at all. It only caused more confusion.

But, after I stopped going, God started teaching me the Word by the Word. It was wonderful. He still teaches me. He taught me all these things I teach by the Word. You know that I say nothing except Scripture.

So, you see, if I turn back and say 'ok, i don't know; you teach me'---not meaning any ugliness to any of you, I would be telling God I no longer believe what He showed me His Word says.

It is not that I can not listen to others; it is that God taught me; I can not deny His teachings. I only hope and pray to be able to impart some of this beauty to some one else.

God bless you. I do hope you can see my side of this thing. I want us all to be friends. I truly love all of you. If I don't show it at times, it is because of the 'lion' spirit. I can't help what God gave me.

Please read the new message I just posted on the changing of the covenants. Check those Scriptures in Heb. especially.

All of God's Word is LAW. The thing is, we are not UNDER the LAW of the Old Covenant now. We are under His grace. That does not mean that we go out and commit sin. No!! We go by his written word. But not by law. I guess it is something only God can show a person.

His Word is law; but there were things imposed on them under the law of Moses, which he lifted; not moral laws such as killing and stealing; but things like tithing and Sabbath keeping. We have the Rest in our souls. Only God can show you this.

I do appreciate the kindness of you last post.

From:

Tweety134

Sent: 11/12/2007 9:03 PM

Death=LAW

LIFE=GRACE

YOU CHOOSE!!! Tweety

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Message 20 of 20 in Discussion

From:

Freeborn551

Sent: 11/13/2007 4:09 PM

Thank you so much, Tweety, for your labour in bringing these older messages back up for us. I will try to paste them into our special boards when I have some time. (been gone all day today and have to work again tonight.)

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