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 Message 1 of 7 in Discussion 
From: joie  (Original Message)Sent: 7/4/2005 9:58 PM
From: Mateo Sent: 10/11/2004 1:03 AM
Jesus said in (John 8:24-27) If you believe not that I Am He,ye shall die in your sins...the people understood not that he spoke of the Father..(Jesus said that He is the Father)...


Here is the REAL TRUTH OF THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE.  QUOTED FROM THE WORD.....ALL OF THE VERSES.........[this will show you how error comes from 'leap=froging' with the Word.]

<NOBR>Joh 8:24</NOBR> I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
<NOBR>Joh 8:25</NOBR> Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
<NOBR>Joh 8:26</NOBR> I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
<NOBR>Joh 8:27</NOBR> They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
<NOBR>Joh 8:28</NOBR> Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
<NOBR>Joh 8:29</NOBR> And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Now let's just take a real close and truthful look at the above verses:

v24.  Jesus said, if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.........

but the question is, believe that he is WHO?  Now you state that he told them he was speaking of the Father, and therefore is saying they [we] must believe that Jesus is the Father.  Right? 

But that is NOT what Jesus spoke of when he said he spoke of the Father.........go back and really READ the word. [stop just letting false teachers tell you what it says].  This is dangerous.......will send you to hell.

v25.  They asked Jesus who are you.  Jesus said the SAME THAT I SAID TO YOU FROM THE BEGINNING......

So now, go back to the beginning of the life of Jesus and go find me one place and quote it here for me, where Jesus ever even ONE TIME TOLD ANYONE THAT HE IS GOD OR THE FATHER.

Know what?  It is NOT THERE.  Jesus never one time said these words..........so what did he tell them?  Read on.

Now verse 26 reveals to us what Jesus was speaking of about the FATHER....... "I speak to the world the things which I heard of the one who SENT ME".  Now.........we are getting to truth......

verse 27---They understood not that he spoke of the Father.  See you left this out, thereby making a lie.

When he said I speak the things I heard of the one who sent me.........this is where he is speaking of the Father....that the Father SENT HIM AND HE IS SPEAKING THE WORDS OF THE FATHER....

DID YOU NEVER READ WHERE Jesus said the Words I speak are NOT mine, but the Father's which SENT ME?

Is is sensible to say that Jesus SENT HIMSELF AND HE SPOKE NOT HIS OWN WORDS BUT THOSE OF HIMSELF FOR HE SENT HIMSELF THEREFORE HE SPOKE NOT OF HIMSELF BUT OF HIMSELF WHO SENT HIMSELF?

NOW THAT IS THE vomit the Jesus' only folks are spewing out!

Now back to who or what Jesus told them [us] we had BETTER BELIEVE IF WE DESIRE SALVATION. >>>

Verse 28........ [here is the real clue.....the real truth] >>

<NOBR>Joh 8:28</NOBR> Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Jesus said, "when ye have lifted up the SON OF MAN,   .........then shall ye know.....THAT I AM HE............He who?  The SON OF MAN.

And that I do NOTHING OF MYSELF, but as my Father [not myself, my Father] hath TAUGHT me, [did he teach himself?  if so, why did not he say so?  is his speach a little crazy?]....My Father taught me, I speak these things which He taught me.

Now you better take a good solid look at this, all of you.   Jesus said, unless you believe that I am the SON OF MAN, YE SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS...........

WHERE IS EVEN ONE PLACE WHERE HE SAID BELIEVE THAT I AM THE FATHER........BELIEVE I AM GOD?

Someone give me that verse.......not one you misunderstand and misquote........and leave parts out  to try and make it fit this lying teaching.  God will judge all of you for changing his word.

JO



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Reply
 Message 2 of 7 in Discussion 
From: joieSent: 7/4/2005 10:05 PM
From: joie2 Sent: 10/13/2004 10:11 PM

and after Jesus rose from the dead he appeared unto Thomas and Thomas said to Jesus(My Lord and my God,John20:28)and worshiped him..Jesus didn't rebuke him for this because Jesus is the Lord and God... [Mateo]

Have you ever read Heb. one?  You need to study this chapter.  Now Thomas had received a revelation from the Father just as Peter received a revelation from the Father.  Jesus told Peter flesh and blood [which he was] did not reveal this to you, but my Father which is in Heaven.

Do you really think Jesus was calling himself , My Father?  My --shows possession does it not?  Is Jesus saying I am my own Father?  My self is my Father?  Foolishness.

Jesus had asked Peter, who do you say that I am.  What did Peter answer?  Do you know?  Any of you?

Did Peter say, you are God?  Nope.  Why not, if this is the true foundation for our belief?  Peter said you are the Son of God.  Jesus verified that this was a true revelation from His Father.

Now, Thomas has received a revelation from the Father concerning the fact that AFTER THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS INTO LIFE ETERNAL, IMMORTAL LIFE, NEW BIRTH LIFE, NOW GOD THE FATHER [ A SPIRIT] REWARDS JESUS FOR HIS PERFECT OBEDIENCE TO GOD, AND HIS DEATH AND GOING INTO HELL FIRE TO PAY THE PRICE FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD........

GOD THE ONLY GOD, THE FATHER ....OF...OUR LORD JESUS, sets Jesus up on the throne of God, to be worshipped as God with God.  Ever hear this?

Read Heb. 1:


<NOBR></NOBR>
<NOBR></NOBR>

 

<NOBR>Heb 1:1</NOBR> God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
<NOBR>Heb 1:2</NOBR>

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


God spoke by His Son.  God appointed His Son heir of all things......

<NOBR>Heb 1:4</NOBR> Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
<NOBR>Heb 1:5</NOBR> For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
<NOBR>Heb 1:6</NOBR> And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
<NOBR>Heb 1:7</NOBR> And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
<NOBR>Heb 1:8</NOBR> But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
<NOBR>Heb 1:9</NOBR> Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.


This says that God made Jesus much higher than angels.  Before his death he was lower than the angels....for the suffering of death.

Now v.8--this is where it was fulfilled what Jesus said,  ALL POWER IS GIVEN TO ME.  ......given to me.......given by whom?  why was it given to him?  If he already were God, why and who gave this power to him?  Now you do believe what Jesus said, don't you?

Jesus said,  ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH.....IS.......GIVEN.......TO ME.  By whom?

By God.  By His God.  By His Father.  Do you believe that Jesus has a God?  If not, you must call lots of Scriptures a lie.  IT MENTIONS THE GOD AND FATHER OF JESUS IN LOTS OF PLACES.

Jesus called him,  My God, My God on that cross.  Who was he speaking to ?

Now go back and read where God told the angels of God to worship his Son.  He told us to worship Jesus now as God.  So that is the revelation Thomas received........that now........after his glorification into the image of God......Jesus has been raised up to be God with the God kingdom.......God set Jesus up as God and told us to worship and honour HIS SON EVEN AS WE HONOUR AND WORSHIP HIM.

That is how and why Isa. 9:6 declares that the only begotten Son, which is the RESURRECTED CHIRST, is our  everlasting Father.  This will never end.  Jesus is our Father.........but God is Jesus' Father.

Jo


Reply
 Message 3 of 7 in Discussion 
From: joieSent: 7/4/2005 10:08 PM
From: joie2 Sent: 10/13/2004 10:24 PM
Jesus was also the son of God..How can this be you ask?..Jesus had two natures..as a human he was the son of God but the Spirit inside the human body of Jesus was God..[Mateo]

Jesus had two natures??????   Where is even one verse stating this lie?  Are you not afraid to add to the Word of God this way?  Do you not know that God will take your part out of the Book of life and add the plagues of His Word to you if you change his word this way?

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God.  This kind of stuff makes God angry.

Jesus only performed miracles by FAITH IN GOD.  Not that he was God.  If so, then how is he our pattern son?  How are we placed on the same level as He?  When he told his disciples you will do all I have done and greater, how is this fulfilled if one must be God, with a dual nature to work these great works?

If Peter raised the Dead same as Jesus, did this mean peter had that dual nature?  If not, then how was he doing just as Jesus did?  Think about this.

How can we lay hands on the sick and they recover if one must be God and have a dual nature to do so?  If Jesus said we shall do as he did, then how can we do it, if Jesus did it as being God?  See?  If JEsus did it as God, then we cannot do as He did.  If so then we must also be God............see where this false teaching leads.

And that was its purpose,,........to fulfill the desire of satan to be God.  Make man be God.........Adam is Satan.......Adam wanted to be God.  Was that not what he was tempted with?? God doth know that we shall be as gods?  Ever read that.........is that what you all desire ??????? to be as gods?  Sure seems so.

Jesus was a man.  The Word always declares Jesus was and still is a man.  Where does it say Jesus was and still is God?  Where does it say that?

It says Jesus  is the man who mediates between God and us.  the MAN Christ Jesus.........did not say ...the God, Christ Jesus.  Now did it?

Jesus   raised the dead by FAITH IN GOD.  Else he was not our pattern.  Else he is not our kinsman redeemer.  God is not a kinsman to us........only another human being is our kinsman.

You do away with the entire purpose and glory of Jesus when you declare him to be God.

JO



Reply
 Message 4 of 7 in Discussion 
From: joieSent: 7/4/2005 10:11 PM
Now, being a 'chief shepherd' DOES NOT MEAN BEING GOD.  There is absolutely no proof here.  Nothing in 1Pet. 5:4 says a thing about Jesus being God or divine.  Divine is not even used in Scripture.  It is a lie.
 
 I explained Isa. 9:6 in one of the above posts.  Unless you read them and study, I am not going to repeat the same thing.
 
Rev. 17:14.....being Lord of lords does NOT IMPLY BEING GOD.  Look at the spelling of 'lord'.......Lord is the Son.
LORD [all caps] is God.
 
Being King of kings also does NOT imply being God.   It is the elevated position of Jesus, the mortal son of Mary.  He is God's Son by GLORIFICATION.  [same as we will be]
 
John 20:28....is as I explained above, the revelation which Thomas received that after Heb. one, the ceremony in Heaven, AFTER Jesus resurrection and ascention, where God set Jesus up to be worshipped, thus becoming OUR GOD.....
 
Now to say he is MY GOD, as Thomas said, IS ALSO NOT IMPLYING THAT JESUS IS GOD....only that God said for us to worship him as our God and honour Him as we honour God.......this is what Jesus inherited as his reward for his complete and perfect obedience to God.......He lived on earth as  GOD'S SERVANT.......NOT AS GOD.
 
Now nothing you have stated yet, said that Jesus is God or that Jesus had a dual nature.  Not one word is ever said in Scripture of this nature.  Now when you can give me one verse saying Jesus is God or that Jesus had a dual nature, then I will agree with you......
 
but know what?  I have ALREADY studied the Word enough to KNOW IT IS NOT WRITTEN.
 
Now I am taking every scripture you hinted at and explaining it with other Scripture.  Now you do the same with what I wrote.   that is IF  YOU DESIRE TRUTH.
 
Jo
 
 
 

Reply
 Message 5 of 7 in Discussion 
From: joieSent: 7/4/2005 10:12 PM
From: joie Sent: 10/14/2004 6:22 PM
Mateo, Please read and EXPLAIN John 17:1-3.
Who was Jesus speaking to?
Himself?
Is he calling himself his own Father?
 
If Jesus were his own Father, please explain why he said to this 'father' --as You gave him power over all flesh......now if he is the Father why did he say he GAVE himself this power?
 
Did he give himself power?........but this is not all..........read on....
 
verse 3----[Jesus still speaking TO HIS FATHER]----this is life eternal, that they might know   THEE  [you], THE    ....ONLY.......TRUE....GOD,............AND .....JESUE CHRIST,,,,,,,WHOM......YOU....HAST  SENT.
 
Jesus tells HIS FATHER,,,,,you are the only true God............now do you call Jesus a lie?  how you explain this?

Reply
 Message 6 of 7 in Discussion 
From: joieSent: 7/4/2005 10:13 PM
From: <NOBR>MSN Nickname®Larry_W_B_1©</NOBR> Sent: 10/14/2004 6:32 PM

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. ( Jesus is speaking here and he said he could do nothing in his own self but he came to do the will of his Father that sent him.

31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. ( Jesus is saying in this scripture that if he is bearing witness of himself don’t believe him because it’s not true. )

32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.

34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.

36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.( Did Jesus send himself? No he said that his Father sent him. ( What Jesus is saying here is in John was sent to bear witness onto the truth, but that was testimony from man, but he said I have a greater witness than John’s witness. He said that the works bear witness of me, but let’s look to vs. 37 where he said I have a I have a greater witness that these.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

John 8:14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

That sounds to me like two different beings.

 


Reply
 Message 7 of 7 in Discussion 
From: joieSent: 7/4/2005 10:15 PM
From: <NOBR>MSN Nickname®Larry_W_B_1©</NOBR> Sent: 10/14/2004 6:40 PM

We are not to add to the word or take away. The word of God says that God is a Spirit and that no one has seen God at any time. Jesus said he was flesh and bone. How can flesh and bone be a Spirit?

Jesus was born of woman? Hmy  well go clean itow could the Almighty God be born of woman? Jesus died. How could the Almighty God die? Jesus suffered and went into hell with all the sins of the world? God did not suffer and die and go into hell.

God was and still is the Father of Jesus. God did not Father himself.

God is a many-membered KINGDOM. God is not just 1 being. Learn. One means in unity; It would not be possible if He were only - 1 - . How can - 1 - be in a unity or oneness with only 1?

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. ( see he said he went unto the Father which was greater than himself.

John10:30 I and my Father are one. . . ( Jesus was not stating that him and his Father was one here as the Trinitarians say and as the ONENESS people say. He referred to the unity such as was on the day of Pentecost where they were in one mind and one accord. Jesus prayed that this same unity would become a reality among his followers.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. (see the plural word we there. If Jesus was God so are we because he said let them be one as we are one.)

Jesus lived as God's servant. He yielded perfect obedience to His Father. He always did those things that pleased God. This showed that Jesus recognized God as greater than he.


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