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Peace : Glutton, sin or no?
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 Message 1 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameFreeborn551  (Original Message)Sent: 8/1/2008 4:06 AM
From: joie  (Original Message) Sent: 8/30/2002 9:22 PM
 

  

~~~ Glutton, sin or no? ~~~

I have heard many people refer to ‘glutton�?as meaning one who over eats and becomes overweight. They say the Word of God teaches this is sin. I have heard this all my life, but have never believed it. Since I am in a dispute with someone now over this very matter, I decided it is time to find out for sure what the Word really teaches on this matter.

It is just as I thought, the word ‘glutton�?in the Word is referring to a vile, loose morally worthless person.

I suspected this when I ran the references on the word and found that each time it is used, it is connected with the word ‘drunkard�?

Before I go into this, let me tell you that the word, overweight is not in the Word of God. Some are saying it is as much sin as anything else to be overweight. I tell you if this were true, the Word of God would say so. It is not up to man to decide what is sin and what is not. If God did not say it is sin, it is not sin.

Even under the strict Moses law, overweight is not mentioned. Overeating is not in the Word either.

Glutton is used two times in the O.T.

Deut.21:18-21 ~~18. If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

19. Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20. And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Now read this context -- you will find that the word glutton here is referring to the conduct of this person -- not how he eats. Eating has not been mentioned. It does not mean that.

Run the reference in Strong’s Hebrew - it is #2151--Text: a primitive root [compare 2107]; to shake (as in the wind), i.e. to quake; figuratively, to be loose morally, worthless or prodigal: -blow down, glutton, riotous (eater), vile.

Text: a primitive root [compare 2151]; probably to shake out, i.e. (by implication) to scatter profusely; figuratively, to treat lightly: -lavish, despise.

Now these two meanings show that ‘glutton�?is referring to a loose, immoral way of life; not how one eats.

The other O.T. Scripture using this word is Provervs 23:21-- 21. For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.

See, here that ‘glutton�?is linked with being a drunkard, not with eating or weight.

The first time ‘gluttonous�?is used in the N.T. is Matt. 11: 18 & 19--8. For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

19. The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Now it is clear here, that this is NOT referring to John or Jesus being overweight; but as to their mode of life.

The other place is Luke 7:34, it is the same words as in Matt. 11.

Now what did Jesus say about eating and if it can DEFILE a person?

Matt. 7: ~~ 7. Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8. This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

10. And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:

11. Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

12. Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?

13. But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

14. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

15. Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.

16. And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

17. Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

18. But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

19. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

20. These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Now Jesus said here that nothing which enters into the MOUTH of a person can defile that person. In other words, nothing he eats is sin to him.

Read verse 16-- He asked them are you also without understanding - meaning if they thought what a person eats defiles them, then they are without understanding.

He said that which comes OUT of the mouth, not what goes into the mouth, is what defiles a person.

So, now let’s see who has understanding, and who is without understanding.

All these people proclaiming that overeating is a sin, let them bring forth one Scripture which says this. If you cannot, then admit that you are teaching the doctrines and commandments of MEN, NOT GOD.

I knew in my heart all my life this was not true. I have heard it all my life, but never believed it. I decided it is time to study this and prove what is true and what is false.

I have proven that gluttonous has nothing to do with how one eats. Let those who say it does, prove by the Word of God what they are saying.

 



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Reply
 Message 2 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameFreeborn551Sent: 8/1/2008 4:09 AM
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameCarol5667</NOBR> Sent: 8/31/2002 8:13 AM
Glutton - (Deut. 21:20), Heb. zolel, from a word meaning "to shake out," "to squander;" and hence one who is prodigal, who wastes his means by indulgence. In Prov. 23:21, the word means debauchees or wasters of their own body. In Prov. 28:7, the word (pl.) is rendered Authorized Version "riotous men;" Revised Version, "gluttonous." Matt. 11:19, Luke 7:34, Greek phagos, given to eating, gluttonous.
 
Can mean differant things depending on how used . In this case > (Prodigal) Like the prodigal son .

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 3 of 18 in Discussion 
From: joie Sent: 8/31/2002 11:57 AM

 Thank you Carol, for this truth.  Yes that is what I am saying the word 'glutton' is meaning in most of the four times it is mentioned in the Word of God.

The place in the N.T. where is referrs to this word connecting with John and Jesus, shows that Jesus had a hearty 'appetite'.

But in my search, I did not find  EVEN  ONE  time where the Word said it is a sin to eat a certain amount.  Who is going to 'monitor' how much one eats and decide where the stopping place is,  and when it becomes 'sin'?

I have not found one place in Scripture which refered to how much one eats as being sin.  I have not found one place where it said how much one weighes is sin. 

Yet, Way.....  is contending that this is just as much sin as any other sin.  He declares (on another group)  that Holiness people are gluttons and big, fat people, therefore sinners.

He said the Word says more about this sin of 'gluttoney'  --- meaning overeating and overweight, than it does on how one should dress.  I ask,   WHERE  is the Scripture?

I have not found it.  If any of you know where this Scripture is, please show it to us.

It is time truth is taught,  and not men's wild ideas.

 
   


Reply
 Message 3 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameFreeborn551Sent: 8/1/2008 4:13 AM
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameCarol5667</NOBR> Sent: 8/31/2002 12:40 PM
I love to eat things I like . Sometimes I may eat exstreamly but I'm not overweight  .

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 5 of 18 in Discussion 
From: mosel Sent: 9/1/2002 3:54 PM

All I am saying on the subject of glutton sin or no is that they called Jesus a glutton and a wine bibber.

So he must have eaten and drank a lot,don't you think? And since winebibber was used with glutton I take it meaning is, as eating to much.

                                           Moset


Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 6 of 18 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameCarol5667</NOBR> Sent: 9/1/2002 4:22 PM
I suppose mosel but how much would we offer Christ to eat if He came to our house ?
Carol

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 7 of 18 in Discussion 
From: mosel Sent: 9/1/2002 5:25 PM

Carol

I would give him the best that I had to offer, and if I did not have enough I'd go out and get some more.

Everything that I have  is his anyway, My life and my soul, if we do not give our all to him then he won't accept us.

    moset


Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 8 of 18 in Discussion 
From: joie Sent: 9/1/2002 6:53 PM
Jesus does NOT accept dishonest people.  They are headed to hell fire.

Reply
 Message 4 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameFreeborn551Sent: 8/1/2008 4:14 AM
From: joie Sent: 9/2/2002 3:20 PM
I want to tell you all that I was banned yesterday from a group which I really thought had a good Christian manager.  Well, just goes to show you have to wait sometimes and let them have enough time to show their true colors.
 
It was this message which I was banned for; this and the one condemning women's wearing pants.  That old 'way.......' is a member there, and he faught every word I said just as he did when he was here,  the manager sided with him.  They are just too carnal to understand one spiritual truth.
 
I am afraid that is where most of the world is today.  They hate this thing of telling women they must dress as a woman and be in Godliness as God called for. Well, all who follow their perniscious ways will perish with them.
 
Only those who are willing to be a 'peciliar' people, not conforming to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind ( by the Word of God)-- will ever make it into eternal life.
 
Jo   ( we will suffer persecution in this world if we live and teach Godliness)--  This manager said Way had  FORGOTTEN  MORE  ABOUT THE WORD OF GOD, THAN I EVER KNEW.
 
Yet I have never seen Way bring forth one single truth.  So it goes.

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 10 of 18 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameCarol5667</NOBR> Sent: 9/2/2002 5:54 PM
Joie first let me say that I don't judge anyone by what they may put on and what they don't put on . God said like you posted ..."but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind" . Now this isn't telling us we shouldn't  dress properly and be modest . I for one wear pant suits and hate wearing dresses .  I actually feel more comfortable in pants . I not only feel more confortable for the sake they are confortable and I can move better but I feel at ease also because I like working in my garden and when I'm in public I cross my legs . No one can see up your pants no matter how you sit or what you're doing .
The bible teaches "Let it be the hidden man of the heart . .....and to not look on the outward appearance" .
So this shouldn't be an issue to argue over .
Sincerely in love
Carol


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 Message 5 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameFreeborn551Sent: 8/1/2008 4:14 AM
From: joie Sent: 9/2/2002 6:26 PM
Carol,
 
How one 'feels' or thinks is NOT the 'judging' rule.  The Word of God is.  Just because females have been 'seduced' and raised to thinking pants are o.k. does NOT do away with the fact that God said it is an  ABOMINATION  TO  HIM.
Now your feeling better in them than a dress does NOT take away the fact that it is an  ABOMINATION TO GOD.
 
Teaching truth is NOT arguring. and if it is, then so be it.  Paul and Peter were not past 'arguring' to get people to see truth. 
 
The correct dresses for a woman to wear are much more comfortable than any pants,  and also much more decent.  Sure these 'modern' short, tight wordly dresses may not be decent.  but then they are not the 'modest' dress Paul said for Christian women to wear.  Pants show a woman's body in a very indecent way.  If you do not believe me,  Just sit back and LOOK  at her,  from the front,  and from the back,  really LOOK.
 
After I quit wearing them, ( in my early 20's)  I finally  SAW  what they LOOK LIKE  in the front and the behind;  I was shocked and so ashamed that I had ever shown my body that way.  Any true Christian will feel this way.
 
You and others can turn a deaf ear and shut your eyes to this truth if you desire, but God is not going to change His mind because of it.  Revelation says that nothing which works ABOMINATION will enter that Holy city.
 
Everyone who takes this opinion that it if ok for females to wear 'feminine' pants do NOT agree that it is ok for a man to wear a 'manish' dress ----  now I ask WHY?
 
Is it not the same perversion?
 
Sure it is.    Now just go listening to these modern day wolves who have seduced your mind all you wish to ---  but I warn you - they are not God's mouth in this world.
 
Jesus wore a garment down to the foot, - Rev. 1:13.
 
Read Isa. 47:1-5--- You will see the progression of how Babylon (the harlot city)  became naked and God bringing judgment upon her.
v2--.....uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers.  Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, they shame shall be seen:  I will take vengeance..
 
Now that is the way it happened -- first the cut off their hair (uncovered their heads; 1Cor. 11)  then they made the leg (knee down) bare = no cloths there ;
then..uncover the thigh, = the shorter dresses and shorts..... then total nakedness........then God's wrath hitting them.
 
Now if you ignor this, you will bear your own judgment.  I have warned you as a watchmen on the wall.
 
Long dresses with full skirts are the most comfortable wear there is.  Pants bind and crimp.  They also allow no air to circulate -- If one has on a long, full dress they can decently do anything.
 
That is the only Godly and becoming wear for a Christian woman.  Now if you do not want to conform to this Holy Way....  you will bring His vengeance upon yourself.  Make no mistake about it.
 
The wolves will tell you this is not important ...... it is not something God looks at.......he looks at the heart.....  well, out of the heart, the 'mouth', speaketh.  Out of the heart comes either obedience and conforming to the Word,  or disobedience and conforming to the world.
 
What is in the heart comes out.  Be ye Holy in  BODY,  SOUL,  AND SPIRIT.
 
That is the Word.
 
Jo  (no compromiser)

Reply
 Message 6 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameFreeborn551Sent: 8/1/2008 4:15 AM
From: isaiah Sent: 9/2/2002 8:45 PM
Isaiah 3:16   Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:
 
17   Therefore the LORD will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts.

18   In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,

19   The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,
20   The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,

21   The rings, and nose jewels,
22   The changeable suits of apparel, (wear pant suits)  and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,

23   The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails.
24   And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

25   Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.
26   And her gates shall lament and mourn; and she being desolate shall sit upon the ground.




Reply
 Message 7 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameFreeborn551Sent: 8/1/2008 4:16 AM
From: joie Sent: 9/2/2002 9:54 PM
Very good Scripture to bring into this discussion, Isaiah.
 You know, It is a terrible place the church people have gotten to in our day.  They are told to do what pleases the FLESH.  They are told to do what is pleasing to the eyes.  They are told to do what they 'feel' good with.
 
They are led to believe that God is going to judge by how they feel about a thing.  They are not told that they MUST go by the Written Scriptures.  You try to show truth; and they run into the FLESH every time.  We try to talk spiritual; and they go to the flesh to try to prove a thing every time.  Don't they know that the Word is  FULL of the fact that we are to  CRUCIFY  the flesh?  We are to walk in the Spirit  and kill (mortify) the flesh.
 
Yet they will stand and say oh I feel better this way.  or i do not judge by this thing. Well, for your souls sake, let me warn you all that it is not how you judge a thing; it is how God judges it.  How God judges it is how it is written in the Word.
 
It might be a good thing to take each one of those things listed in your post and study the  meaning of each one.  I have done it.  The crisping pins means hair curlers.  Now people will say oh it is all right to fix your hair into fancy hairdo's.  But the word speaks against it in many places including both Paul's and Peter's writtings. 
 
WHO  DO  YOU  PEOPLE  BELIEVE??????????????
 
JO

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 14 of 18 in Discussion 
From: joie Sent: 9/2/2002 9:57 PM
Isa. 1:19~~If ye be WILLING   AND   OBEDIENT, ye shall eat the good of the land:
 
v20--But if ye  REFUSE AND  REBEL, ye  shall  be devoured with the sword:  for the MOUTH  OF  THE LORD  HATH SPOKEN IT.
 
 


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 Message 8 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameFreeborn551Sent: 8/1/2008 4:18 AM
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameCarol5667</NOBR> Sent: 9/2/2002 11:43 PM
Well Joie where in the bible does it say men wore pants and women wore dresses ? I thought men wore robes and sandals . Likewise the women . But where it speaks of women wearing anything pertaining to a man , it says she's not to make her garments out of the same material as a mans . But I'm not living by those rules and God broke down the middle wall of partition .

Reply
Recommend Delete    Message 16 of 18 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameCarol5667</NOBR> Sent: 9/2/2002 11:55 PM
Deuteronomy 22:11 - Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.

p.s.  see how Carol went into the law to try to fight this NT teaching of women dressing as becometh women professing Godliness.  We lost her and spiritwalker over this 'pants' issue.  People just will not accept the full truth, when it comes to changing their lives to do as God says.  He is not Lord of their lives, they are lord to themselves.

But we still teach the truth, regardless of who can't take it.


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