|
|
 |
|
Reply
| |
Carrie... sorry, I have to direct this post to you based on a few of our current IM's and emails. You've asked that I watch a couple of YouTube videos and read a testimony from one of our fallen soldiers in Iraq, a piece he wrote shortly before he died... I did. I sent you a few links in email about the infrastructure damage we caused in Iraq which... you very likely won't click. That's ok. I know I can't change your mind even though those reports came directly from UN information. If you want to be in denial about that...fine. But damn.. you can't be in denial about what is happening to our troops. Instead of getting all teary eyed when you watch "God Bless the USA" on YouTube, I would hope you get even more teary eyed over the following statistics from the Military Journal and even more disturbing, a CBS report on YouTube regarding Iraq War Veteran Suicides. The numbers are staggering. We can not deny there is an epidemic of suicide amongst our war veterans since 1995. If you won't watch the video, here is a preview of some of the numbers collected a couple of years ago... but I implore you to watch the report on YouTube. 2,200 suicides 1995-August 2007... ACTIVE DUTY SOLDIERS ONLY In 2005, forty-five states reporting, 6,265 suicides... that's 120 suicides each and every single week in 2005 (Retired/Discharged Vets) Veterans are 8 times more likely to commit suicide... And these are extremely conservative statistics because gathering data on retired/discharged veterans is nearly impossible ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Also: Military Struggles with Response to PTSD Among Iraq and Afghanistan War Service Members CBS Evening News
Dec 28, 2008 December 26, 2008 (CBS) The Pentagon says 1 in 5 service members who come home from Iraq or Afghanistan suffer from post-traumatic stress. Some find their experiences too much to bear. There were 115 military suicides last year, and 93 through just August of this year. The biggest obstacle to getting those numbers down may be the military culture itself, reports CBS News correspondent Kimberly Dozier. First Sergeant Jeff McKinney was a model soldier, a newlywed, and a new father. Now, his family says, he's a casualty of war. Two wars really: the war in Iraq, where he served honorably, and the war within the military over how to deal with post-traumatic stress disorder. On July 11, 2007, McKinney, serving on his second tour, killed himself in front of his men. He had endured months of sleeplessness, nightmares and guilt over losing so many of the soldiers he commanded. "I think he felt like he couldn't send one more broken body home, one more dead person home," Jeff McKinney's father, Charles McKinney, said. McKinney's personal battle mirrors the war within the U.S. Army, between those who call combat stress a killer, and those who call it an excuse. In McKinney's case, there had been troubling signs, but he hadn't been taking the medication given to help him cope -- and his captain feared taking him off duty would destroy his career. Commanders like First Sergeant McKinney are often the hardest to convince they need help. "We've got a rough and tough, sort of macho culture that says none of that soft squishy touchy feely stuff," said Brigadeer General Loree Sutton, director of the military's Center for Psychological Health and Traumatic Brain Injury. "Well, we need to bring the brain out of what has been a black box." But that's fighting Army tradition. Commanders at one army base posted a fake "Hurt Feelings Report" -- portraying a crying cartoon face -- to mock soldiers seeking help for combat stress. Selections on the form included: "I am a crybaby," "I want my mommy" and "All of the above." It was tacked on the barracks bulletin board, next to the sign-up sheet, for the mental health clinic. Sutton says the military's challenge is to teach soldiers - and commanders - that the nightmares or flashbacks aren't signs of weakness. "It's about starting a different dialogue, giving folks permission to talk," she said. The military is testing promising pilot programs. Instructor and former Army ranger Steve Robinson, who runs OneFreedom.org says it's about training the brain to cope with traumatic memories: "Teaching soldiers skills like visualization, event resolution, breath work, quiet time so they can process what happened." But for First Sergeant McKinney, there were no such tools to cope. His wife says she knows what she'll tell her son. "He needed help and nobody helped him," Chrissy McKinney said. "And that's the reason why he died." But, she said, "He died a hero." http://veteransforcommons...cfm/page/article/id/11977 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ So.. Carrie, I would HOPE that you understand that when I, and others in here, are SCREAMING about the attrocities caused in this Iraq war, that our thoughts are with our soldiers (well, except for those Abu Ghraib assholes) every bit as much as yours are when you applaud and cheer our government. Please remember how this same government that you love so much is neglecting the soldiers you love so much and destroying the lives of so many and their families. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And one more item.. from the Military Journal: A New Study on Returning Service Members A recent study in the journal Military Medicine examined rates of PTSD and the success of these VA programs among 120 service members returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. They surveyed the returning service members on their PTSD symptoms, depression, alcohol use, and their use of VA mental health services. Their findings for mental health problems are quite alarming: - 6% had PTSD
- 27% showed dangerous alcohol use
- 6% had problems with both PTSD and alcohol use
They also found that 62% of service members reported receiving some kind of mental health care since returning home from Iraq or Afghanistan. Of these: - 11% reported use of medication
- 13% had individual therapy
- 12% had group therapy
- 10% had marital or family therapy
- 2% had treatment for susbtance use problems
- 51% were involved in briefings and/or debriefings.
What This All Means The findings of this study suggest that service members returning from Iraq and Afghanistan are suffering from a number of mental health problems, including PTSD and alcohol use. In addition, not all are receiving the care they need. Although 62% reported receiving some kind of mental health care, a good proportion of those surveyed did not. Further, of those receiving care, we do not know the extent and quality of the care they were receiving. |
|
|
Reply
| |
You missed a few of the highlighted passages...  So explain to me WHY with such greater awareness, are we having THESE problems? The VA will get about $4 billion in the coming year for mental health and substance abuse services. Though funding is up significantly from previous years, it is roughly the SAME AMOUNT THE GOV'T SPENDS IN IN TWO WEEKS ON THE IRAQ WAR, according to a congressional analysis. Earlier this year, a VA supervisor in Texas discouraged psychologists and social workers from diagnosing veterans with PTSD out of concern over a proliferation of "compensation seeking veterans," according to an internal VA e-mail obtained by the nonprofit Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington. But the VA's Zeiss said several characteristics of the current wars have increased the chances that veterans will be diagnosed with mental health disorders. "The extended deployments and multiple deployments and the nature of the violence people are experiencing are creating stressful situations that lead to a range of problems," Zeiss said. The postwar emotions of this batch of combat veterans are not unique, but they might be more extreme, |
|
Reply
| |
Carole I appreciate what you have given me to read..but I never ever said war was good, you dont think I am aware of all the deaths and the mental problems, the lack of help they get when they get home...I realize our goverment has many problems to much to even begin to express,but if you think for one minute that everything you posted for me doesnt disturb ,and hurts my heart you are dead wrong..all i've been trying to say is it doesnt do any good to ALWAYS post negative articles about how America is the bad guy and Irag was better off before we got there, the USA has done many many great things in Iraq I just think the hatred you have towards Bush clouds your perception. I know you and everyone else in sidebar think we should have never started this war,which is cool thats your opinion but we have a enemey that wants to destroy us, President Clinton and his national security team ignored several opportunities to capture Bin Laden and his terrorist associates,my understanding is the Pentagon told Clinton that they knew the location of Bin Laden and could take him out but he decided it was to risky and refused to authorize such an action, could 911 have been prevented? all I know is that we havent been attacked since. ....and yes I love my country like all of you do,but sometimes it hard to tell with some of these threads |
|
Reply
| |
I shouldn't try to speak for Carole, but the assumption that her judgment is clouded out of hatred for President Bush is ludicrous. Carole and many others who have been vocal opponents of the war were initially with the President, though cautious, at the outset of the war. It was only after new facts began to present themselves that we all eventually relented on our support for the conflict.
As for not being attacked since 9/11, there is no real need to attack us. Our own leaders have squandered tremendous wealth in their poorly conceived war in a country that had nothing to do with 9/11. The damage to our country has been severe. Yet in the face of overwhelming evidence that the Iraq war was not only a horrible mistake, but also sold to the nation with lies, and incompetently administered by the Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld and the Coalition Provisional Authority, we still have people like Carrie that equate the justified outrage of so many of us with anti-Americanism. I submit that by allowing herself to be so easily swayed by propaganda techniques that are transparent to even the most undereducated among us, it is she who is acting against the ideals that America has stood for for 200 years. |
|
Reply
| |
I thought I deleted this thread.. I clicked the buttons to delete! |
|
Reply
| |
Jack, I am my own person, I think for myself and not swayed by propaganda so shove it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|
Reply
| |
| I beg to differ. You continue to say things like " I love my country like all of you do,but sometimes it hard to tell with some of these threads." That smells of Fox News/talk radio personalities that love to link dissent with treason, as if to criticise the government makes you anti-American. That is the definition of propaganda. |
|
Reply
| |
if you dislike the goverment so much, why did u vote Obama? he will make it bigger |
|
Reply
| |
....you keep bashing Fox news which is all good and dandy, who do you watch? Olbermann and whats thats ugly chicks name..hmmm .oh yea..Rachel Maddow..now they are fair and balanced puleeeezzzz. ok fine I can see you not liking Hannity or O'Reilly...but the whole Fox news? every show has equal sides to each story..and if I am wrong pass me a link to one that doesnt |
|
Reply
| |
if you dislike the goverment so much, why did u vote Obama? he will make it bigger Weren't McCain and Palin saying they didn't like the current government and wanted change too? |
|
Reply
| |
and they would have made changes..personally I havent seen to much "change" in Obamas cabinet |
|
Reply
| |
It just seems like you are so against us for wanting to change and disliking the current administration, but they did too!! Doesn't make sense. |
|
Reply
| |
when have I ever said I didnt want change Sass? of course I do..Congress really screwd things up..but Obama "change"? ..well nevermind. we will see |
|
Reply
| |
I don't get MSNBC, so no, I don't watch Olbermann or Maddow, but I assure you, her physical appearance would not bear one iota on my perception of her credibility. I am aware that Olbermann and Maddow show bias. The difference between you and I is that I don't put my faith in them, as you appear to do with Hannity.
Sean Hannity is simply a goof. I can't believe you follow him, but I guess you're not alone. I read most of my news. I usually give most credence to mainstream sources like Reuters and AP, but I do try to "read between the lines." I read a lot of blogs, but I take most of that with a grain of salt. I tend to enjoy the writing of those who don't pretend to have inside knowledge, I.E., people like myself who are offering opinions without claiming that they're facts.
I also look deeper into stories that disturb me. As I became disillusioned with the war in Iraq, I became suspicious and began looking into the claims that we were lied to by President Bush. I found the web site of The Project for a New American Century, and learned that many in the Bush administration had been advocating for war in Iraq as a way to reshape the Middle East since the mid 1990's. I learned about the outing of a covert CIA operative by persons within the Bush Administration as retaliation for her husbands revelation that part of President Bush's State of the Union speech, when he made the case for war, was false, and not only that, but that President Bush himself knew it at least a month before that speech. I've watched the hearings and read credible news reports that satisfied me that 9/11 was used as justification for something that was planned long before the Twin Towers fell. I developed a hunger for information, and I used the Internet to satisfy it. I'm satisfied that Bush, Cheney, etc. saw 9/11 as an opportunity to accomplish some goals, that they lied to us, and that they are criminals.
I saw the pictures from Abu Ghraib, and after doing a lot of reading I became satisfied that those abuses were much more than a few sergeants and troops having some sick fun, but that they were systematic abuses that were condoned from the top down. The evidence is out there. Rather than take the word of media figures that I trust, as some who put their faith in Sean Hannity and others like him do, I looked into it myself. I can't say with certainty that everything I was reading was true, but I learned enough to satisfy myself that I knew enough about what happened to come to an informed opinion.
Of course PNAC, and Abu Ghraib are just a couple of examples, there was much more. The Downing Street memos, Richard Clarke's testimony, the NYT expose on the Pentagon's retired officer propaganda campaign, actual video evidence of prisoner abuses, etc. Billy Joel could rewrite "We Didn't Start the Fire" with all of the revelations.
I don't get my news from one source. I don't see media figures as heroic, though I have enjoyed some instances of media figures like Keith Olbermann speaking truth to power. I watch C-Span, and have watched Fox News air sound bytes from speeches by Senators and Congressmen that grossly mischaracterized what they were actually saying. The best example of this was Sen. Durbin's speech on the Senate floor when he criticized the war, only to eventually apologize after his statements were played on Fox News, and on the radio shows, and given without their proper context. I was watching C-Span when he delivered his speech, and I assure you, the reports were grossly misreported.
Yes, I've watched many, many hours of Fox News, and I've listened to hours upon hours of Rush Limbaugh. I don't allow myself to be swayed by their accusations of anti-Americanism because I have had the gall to question authority. I see myself as a consummate American, not afraid to exercise my right of free speech, even when I know that some will point a finger at me and claim that I'm a part of the "blame America" crowd. I also recognize that the difference between Democrats and Republicans is not so great that I can afford to blindly follow the leaders in my chosen party, or their media cheerleaders.
Let me cite one more example, especially for you, Carrie. I recall you repeating the claim that a video exists that shows Michelle Obama at some sort of anti-American rally. The video in question never turned up, did it? Do you know that there were said to be photos of Kitty Dukakis at a flag burning when her husband was running for President against George H.W. Bush? Guess what? The pictures never surfaced. But her husband was damaged by the accusation, and others like it, and his lead in the polls evaporated. This time, MOST of the American people saw through the lie, and Barack Obama was elected president. But SOME Americans bought it hook, line, and sinker.
I don't claim to be an authority, but I am informed. I resent any implication that I am somehow less of an American than anybody, because I don't agree with them. That is the very kind of political correctness that the talking heads on the right are constantly railing against, while expecting nothing less than conformity from their viewers and listeners, and THAT, my dear, is hypocrisy. |
|
Reply
| |
Oh, and regarding Obama's cabinet selections....
Obama has already shown that he is unique. His campaign, his refusal to be cowed into sinking to the level of discourse offered by the McCain campaign, everything about him has been a change. He has selected Washington veterans like Tom Daschle because they know how to work in Washington. The change will come from the top. This is more of the same kind of criticism that we've come to expect from the right wing talk machine. It has gotten old and predictable. I believe that Limbaugh, Hannity, etc. are scared. They see their relevance going by the wayside, and they'll say anything (as they always have). Actually, Hannity doesn't hold a candle to Limbaugh when it comes to smarts. Hannity is a fucking bore, his attacks predictable (blame it on Clinton). |
|
|
|
Free Forum Hosting
Important Announcement
First
Return to General
