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There are two charts I erected for you, but I'll post the EQUAL house one, although, I almost always go with the Placidius, when I saw that one, I felt your chart and geographic location was requiring that I check out the KOCH and the EQUAL houses charts. It's nice that we can do this on astrodienst ourselves, and then "see" which one "seems" to fit the personality the best, (as well as the life lived)...... I'm going with the Equal Houses, because, EQUAL house charts, seldom are wrong, and after all, although they do not show the precession of the equinoxes, (in time), as the arrow of time, as related to the geographical location of birth, they still are the "preferred chart" for many Astrologers, and are the most ancient chart available, hence, even Vedic Astrologers use ONLY Equal house Charts, and Sidereal time. Either way, I will explain later about the other options for you to choose from.......... |
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Hi Deb,  you did not get it quite right again - only one day out, though  ...do you put this down to your Saggy Venus or is it the Gemini Uranus? The Date is: 3rd of April 1961 and time 20.00 (19.00 GMT) |
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I'll put it down to NO Virgo, lol. Actually, my mind has been elsewhere I suppose, and I had already deleted her chart. You know, I keep "thinking", she's a Pisces, and needs water in the chart based upon our past discussions. We'll get it right FINALLY now.  |
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FINALLY, I understand, lol..........it's the U.K. version of time recordation versus the American way to record time. When you say, 3/4/61 I'm thinking America says, March 4th. When it's 3/4 in the U.K., it's actually the 4th day of the 3rd Month. so it's a time relative to practice, (America vs the UK)....thank god, I thought it was me!!!!  |
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no no no...............the 3rd Day of the FOURTH month.........YIKES. |
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okay, her South Node, in Pisces (being the same degree or approx. 5 deg.Pisces), is conjunct closely, Chiron. (inner wounding)carrys with her now. This makes sense then, as you suggested.........Pisces (past was saturated by feelings).......moving now towards a new direction, the goal of the soul in this lifetime, towards a more objective approach to life, in order to balance.(NN Virgo) BUT the NN is conjunct within minutes to Pluto. (not good) Pluto brings transformation by "destruction", as she perhaps did with the family unit, and now grieves about. Pluto does nothing halfway, it is a destructive force we use, or resonate with, (depending on our own evolution)., but always crushing to the spirit, until tranformation occurs.... With the NN and Pluto together, what does Schulmann say about this? I have the book on the Nodes, but haven't looked to see yet. Seems it's crucial & harsh, by virtue of it's proximity (symbolically),as the Nodes are not physical per se. within 20 minutes of each other, this then reflects the current situation brought to pass now but created deeply within her needs. That proximity of Neptune to the Moon, (if time is correct), we are seeing her emotions very much colored by Neptune's influences, and the Moon in Scorio, going towards the 15th Degree is unsettling, as well as destructive to her.......emotions here are crucial and being highlighted by Pluto & the degree of Scorpio, as her emotions are strengthened towards destructive urges. I suppose if the divorce is already a foregone conclusion (or past tense), it's too late to go back, rearrange and fix. One can only go forward, once we make certain, unalterable life changes. We've all made mistakes, but again, they aren't just her's alone........she's only a participant to the roles, we all play.....She needs to realize that truth.,and not take it ALL upon herself. It's a higher truth, a Philosophical one that she needs to eventually learn about, and with a SN in Pisces, it shouldn't be too hard for her to do so. To be less angry then with others, whether mother or self, (as we ARE our mother.........and this, until she learns the "higher truths", she will not comprehend. In all of us, are our loved ones, the most intimate ones connected with our lives. When we deny a "part of us", like a mother or a dad, we in effect are denying a part of ourselves. It's true that one doesn't have to particularly, "like " that personality we call a parent, and even better yet, if we can learn to distinguish between a fault, the soul and the personality. For instance, my father was a pedolphile, or one that was more attracted to young children, because, as the psychiatrists say, he fitted a description of one who was uncomfortable, around adults, and esp. stronger adult women. NOW, I don't have to "like that" about him. do I??? But to say then, I hate him, because of who & what he was", then makes me no better,then he. We ARE part & parcel of the WHOLE, and the Chart (the Sun(father), the Moon(mother), needs integration as such. We need to learn how to seperate the soul from the personality, when judgement is made on another. The soul is the Spiritual part, and the personality is the components making up the "mostly unperfected aspects" that each of us are trying to correct, but the correction CAN NOT come by blaming others for our own actions, OR by taking ALL the blame upon ourselves. Yes, Neptune conjunct her Moon is diffficult then for her to "differentiate", the "others" from herself. It's a long hard road, for all of us with Neptune in critical positions, as we will tend to have views that are clouded by emotions, erraticness, or just plain delusional in some instances. But always, Neptune will "obscure", for good or bad........so it's both creative in function yet can be debilitating in other ways. Not to see someone then in a "clear" way. But higher philosophies, and trying to learn them, can help clear the way.........and the light then can come in to perspectives. IF she was born at this time, her 9th house ConceptionCusp, (ala Tad Mann's method).........says Mother was more air-head type, or Gemini, with thought behind what she did.,planning & motives.IF it's the right time of birth, then Pluto in the 11th may indicate the parents seperated when mother was pregnant, or there was a pulling away from each other (the parents).......I find the Tad Mann Readings, fascinating, to read a Natal Chart via the conception onto the birth time, or AC, BUT, I don't like doing it too much because people get bogged down, in misapplication of assigning blame to their parents rather then taking their lives as their own, to either win or lose as they grow. It's always far easier to blame someone else. |
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a love affair ? that causes the inner wound? or children, may do so too, (5th House Chiron)...Uranus over there now, causing havoc conjunct Mercury in the 5th. Jupiter & Saturn (the childhood was restricted somehow for her).......because Saturn is in the 4th, the early home life. She has her Sun near mine, near the D/C meaning her first marriage was around age 23-24.? Venus in the 7th, she wants Love in the marriage and the kind she thinks of, an outwardly assertive type...(Venusin Aries.),wouldn't be too happy with a laid back type of man too quiet or unassuming.,probably prefers the opposite, but doesn't know why. |
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With the NN and Pluto together, what does Schulmann say about this? I have the book on the Nodes, but haven't looked to see yet. He only shortly describes what happens when nodes aspect a planet, he gives the main aspects but doesn't go into detail about which planets mean what...The planet conjunct NN will help the person tear away from the past, the planet conjunct SN will make her live lessons of the past again, perhaps better, to bring them into closure. With both nodes in conjunction he suggests that the person is in deep conflict about which lessons to live and should chose one - the easier planet, to gain some strenth...I can't say this last one makes sense to me...or I don't understand... Seems it's crucial & harsh, by virtue of it's proximity (symbolically),as the Nodes are not physical per se. Seems very harsh to me...but I like Pluto and the idea of rebirth...I have Pluto on my Asc now so I know a bit what it feels... within 20 minutes of each other, this then reflects the current situation brought to pass now but created deeply within her needs. That proximity of Neptune to the Moon, (if time is correct), we are seeing her emotions very much colored by Neptune's influences, and the Moon in Scorpio, going towards the 15th Degree is unsettling, as well as destructive to her.......emotions here are crucial and being highlighted by Pluto & the degree of Scorpio, as her emotions are strengthened towards destructive urges. What is it about 15th degree? Something to do with destruction? The combination of Moon Neptune and Scorpio must be a tough one. There probably are periods of "drowning" in it or getting lost. On the other hand she must have very strong intuition and connection to the subconscious. I suppose if the divorce is already a foregone conclusion (or past tense), it's too late to go back, rearrange and fix. One can only go forward, once we make certain, unalterable life changes. We've all made mistakes, but again, they aren't just her's alone........she's only a participant to the roles, we all play.....She needs to realize that truth.,and not take it ALL upon herself. It's a higher truth, a Philosophical one that she needs to eventually learn about, and with a SN in Pisces, it shouldn't be too hard for her to do so. Yes, Neptune conjunct her Moon is diffficult then for her to "differentiate", the "others" from herself. It's a long hard road, for all of us with Neptune in critical positions, as we will tend to have views that are clouded by emotions, erraticness, or just plain delusional in some instances. But always, Neptune will "obscure", for good or bad........so it's both creative in function yet can be debilitating in other ways. Not to see someone then in a "clear" way. That's right. My moon sextiles her Uranus (and Moon) and I always felt I couldn't see her clearly, couldn't quite figure her out...did not know where I stood with her, it is so cloudy... But higher philosophies, and trying to learn them, can help clear the way.........and the light then can come in to perspectives. I definitely think the way forward for her is UP. IF she was born at this time, her 9th house ConceptionCusp, (ala Tad Mann's method).........says Mother was more air-head type, or Gemini, with thought behind what she did.,planning & motives.IF it's the right time of birth, then Pluto in the 11th may indicate the parents seperated when mother was pregnant, or there was a pulling away from each other (the parents).......I find the Tad Mann Readings, fascinating, to read a Natal Chart via the conception onto the birth time, or AC, BUT, I don't like doing it too much because people get bogged down, in misapplication of assigning blame to their parents rather then taking their lives as their own, to either win or lose as they grow. Never heard of that method....sounds interesting. But I wouldn't want to start taking astrological symbolism too literally. It is a kind of hit or miss way to do it. |
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a love affair ? that causes the inner wound? or children, may do so too, (5th House Chiron)... that supports the time of birth I am guessing...the pain in connection with children...she wanted to have lots, went through IVF many times but only once succesfully... Uranus over there now, causing havoc conjunct Mercury in the 5th. Jupiter & Saturn (the childhood was restricted somehow for her).......because Saturn is in the 4th, the early home life. Perhaps it all started, when Uranus transited over her SN She has her Sun near mine, near the D/C meaning her first marriage was around age 23-24. probably yes or a little bit earlier...would that move the Sun higher if she was to get married at 20?? Venus in the 7th, she wants Love in the marriage and the kind she thinks of, an outwardly assertive type...(Venusin Aries.),wouldn't be too happy with a laid back type of man too quiet or unassuming.,probably prefers the opposite, but doesn't know why. well, she had a laid back one... |
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Here is the Tad Mann Theory I mentioned: (one goes from the conception point, at the 9th House cusp, in a counterclockwise fashion, so the 9th is the Conception, (check the planets in that house as well as the sign itself........for it's known "traits" and "habits".....good or bad. Friend has a Gemini, 9th house cusp. So her mother at conception, is being described by such. a thoughtful act possibly, (as Gemini is both a dual sign but also Air, so intellgent)......mother falls into this designation somehow, (but we need to look to aspects to this cusp as well? The 9th house has Mars, and IF this is her natal time, then Mann might suggest that there was a definite move towards conception, (physically), by the mother who was the instigator. because of Mars here.....but Mars is square the Sun, so, t here was not a good relationsip, from dad to mom either. (confirmed by her Sun and Moon inconjunct aspect also) The "idea" here is that he says that the time of the fetus in the womb, from conception to birth, is very vital and leaves imprints on the fetus, so he looks from the 9th house cusp on, to see what was happening, while the child was in the womb. The BML in the 10th probably doesn't fare well for symbology in the fetal state. and Uranus in the 21st Degree in the 11th, near the cusp, squares the Moon, so mother was "upset", nervous, and very erratic, during this period in time, and something "unexpected" may have happened to her then. There may have been a "seperation", or a near death type of experience, something happened, because Pluto is there with the NN before the baby is born. ...........therefore, "Trauma" of some nature.,something traumatic happened to the mother before the birth, perhaps a seperation from the dad. the AC is the birth moment. 2nd Octave: Birth & Childhood The 1st House : is indicative of birth to around 7 months old, and "how we bond" with the mother. 2nd House :(Mann says), is how we come into contact with physical world or 7 months to 18 months old. 3rd House:is how we learn to walk, talk, communicate, express (20months to 3 years,4months of age). 4th House: the child Identifies, or rebels against family structure here, (3yrs.4months - 7 years symbolically) 3rd Octave - Maturity 5th House: Plays games,/Exteriorizes,/Expresses Intentions rules ages 7-13 years 6th House: Secondary school - develops an attitude to our body & sexually/college/1st job (13-23years,5months) 7th House: Permanent Relationships, have a family, focus on career, from (23 to 42 years old) 4th & Final Octave 8th H Cusp: from mid-life (gradually detach from life)disengage in old age & prepare for the end. (42-death) ruled by Scorpio...... ................................................................................................. 1st Octave - Gestation 9th Hs.Cusp to Birth at AC. Planets or all of them here concentration of energy towards creativity, strong influences, (of an 8th-12th Hs.variety) stores physically and "felt" as instincts, and lie deeply within. (the gestation symbololgy) a "compulsion" to create. whereas: 2nd Octave domination is more into "emoting" (emotions & mental agility) Venus may be the sister or close relative, (a grandmother), whereas, Jupiter maybe a grandfather, a beneficial person, a doctor, someone who is helpful....... even a helpful uncle. The Transpersonal Planets 7 years Uranus : it takes to go thru ach sign & 84 years to circulate the zodiac and lifetime 14 years Neptune (a cycle of 165 years) 22 years Pluto (cycle is 265 years) The Personal Planets Sun Moon Venus Mars Jupiter and Saturn go thru all 12 signs by the age of 29 years when Saturn completes it's first full cycle.......... NOTES: IF Sun opposite the AC (at birth,) Father is usually absent (emotionally or literally) Sun on the AC the Father is present at the Birth moment. Mann also suggests: IF the Sun has no direct aspect, may be absent at the birth or just not "present" emotinally or physically. I don't see this "holding water" at all, as my 1st daughter, her dad was there, every minute of 13 hours, waiting for her to be born. (she has Sun opp the AC) and HER son, her husband was there at the birth, (physically & emotionally as well), during his birth, and he too has Sun, opposite the AC (like his mother has) Another thing that others "bandied about", with the Tad Mann style readings, is saying that whenever Pluto or Scorpio, is in the Conception to birth realm of houses, there is a "Loss"........esp., true in the 9th house.....of conception. and at the AC (Scorpio Rising,), always means a "seperation". I have a REAL problem with the "ALWAYS MEANS" terminology., as it simply doesn't always fit. My middle daughter is a Scorpio rising, and her dad was there, physically at birth, and they are very close too, as he is a Scorpio Rising, and they get along great..... (she also has a Trine Sun/Moon connection), so perhaps we need to look or step gingerly, using this method as it doesn't always hold water, as good as some of the readings can be. I've seen some that are EXCELLENT progosticators of a person's life, but then again, there ARE these exceptions I've noted that don't always fit. The 8th House is seen as the Just before Conception House and the planets in it, are supposedly giving us "tips" or clues as to the condition of the mother prior to conception in a chart. Now my oldest daughter (the one I mentioned above, whose own son when born has his Sun opposite the AC as well as she herself does too)......... Her chart (8th House) has Pluto there as well as the Moon, and Uranus. Prior to his conception then, there was "Seperation" (Pluto), by "unusual means" (Uranus) (her husband was in the Navy on a Submarine )...... and the Moon is the desire for the child I suppose.........but dad WAS present during his birth.,and afterwards on leave. Perhaps it was her deep and emotionally felt "concern", (a Cancer Sun), that dad wouldn't make it home for the event & even the leave he was given, and this worry shows up in the Sun opposite the AC?? or in the fetal imprint?? Can't say, it may be stretching a point. this one is the book I have, it is a really worthwhile investment I think and you maybe will run into a used copy if you keep looking: A New Vision of Astrology: From Conception to Transcendence By A T Mann Pocket Books/Simon & Schuster, 333 pages and 50 illustrations Four initial postulates created this book: first, the influences in our life come from and manifest through an identifiable cast of characters; second, the events from gestation to birth and the early relationship between our father and mother are an essential foundation of our life; third, the horoscope describes our changing pattern in time as we naturally unfold, develop and change throughout life; and fourth, our biology and psychology are integrated in the total picture of our whole being, linking health, psychology and well-being together.
These issues led the author to reframe astrology itself, resulting in an easy to understand synthesis of astrology with modern developmental psychology, biological time and the Eastern philosophy of karma C a time scale that easily and definitively dates events in your life from conception to old age, based on the ancient perennial philosophy. |
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an Interview with Tad Mann: Intellectual, emotional, and spiritual domains. I began focusing a lot of energy in that direction. Indeed, as I traveled I began painting mandalas, which are circular diagrams, reflections of the psyche, which are instrumental in meditation and in Yoga. These are meant to function as a center for concentration. Simultaneously, of course, I was learning astrology. I spent a number of years living in very primitive places, and realized how powerful the movement of the planets and the stars actually is and began recognizing astrology as a psychic gradient between architecture and social integration; this because I had always been interested in proportion systems used in architecture. If you consider architecture as a three-dimensional object that you walk through in a fourth dimension of time, you can view astrology as a fourth and fifth dimensional pursuit. I merely began applying these same proportional systems, the Golden Section for one, to the development of time through people’s lives. PB: Books like Sacred Architecture, Sacred Sexuality, The Round Art, Life Time Astrology, et al, probably a half-million books in print, not to mention your own Mandala Astrological Tarot and countless painting and print images of one sort or another. How personal were these pursuits–or were you just fiddling with the miraculous? ATM: I’ve done 12 books over the past 26 years. I’ve been very lucky, particularly being in England through the early years, because I’ve been able to write and have books published about my ideas, about my philosophical, astrological, and architectural theories, which are quite radical, even outside of the mainstream in the alternative world. In many ways, I see these books as a kind of cosmology in a sense, of searching to find my roots and coming to the understanding that my roots are in the cosmos. Astrology was a way of locating myself in space and time and it served that purpose very admirably in all of the years since. Many of my early books talk specifically about a very unusual astrological system that I invented that has a biological dimension as well as a psychological and spiritual dimension. It’s also unique because it takes an individual back to when they were conceived But these astrological ideas are still perceived as very much ahead of their time and quite radical. So I began writing books about other more adventurous subjects, the last two of these were Sacred Architecture and Sacred Sexuality. |
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Now let's pretend we understand Tad Mann's theory a bit, (which I really don't yet)........and looking at YOUR chart then, we see the 9th house cusp Leo, and Virgo ruling the house itself, with Sun,Mercury & Mars all together there. This might suggest that your mother was very in tune (mentally, emotionally), and had it all together, so to speak (in Virgo), and planned for this conception to take place. The 10th House having Pluto and Uranus there in Libra, may suggest that there was an accident, (Uranus?), or some type of trauma here, (Pluto), during the time she carried you (about 8 weeks into the pregnancy or longer).......perhaps just before acknowledging she was indeed pregnant, (the M/C is the awareness of same) Neptune in the 12th House may suggest that mom was anesthsized for the birth itself. (Neptune = drug or something to keep asleep or not feel the pain)....... Sun (dad) in the 9th, is square to Saturn (his father??), or perhaps some sort of restriction about the pregnancy........ taking place. Jupiter (uncle, doctor, someone here, perhaps an older male) in the 1st, and square to the Sun, may suggest that again, there was some "issue" concerning the pregnancy, that your parents were forced to confront. Usually Jupiter rising, is considered a good position, but with these squares I wonder then, what that's about?? Does Mann's theory fit at all?? |
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Hi Deb, thanks for your posts. Sorry I haven't replied earlier, though I ve read what you've said. I am reading "Changing Sky" at the moment, so I don't really want to mix the approach with the Mann's theory. It's application on my chart doesn't seem to fit that well, perhaps it would do better with uneven house system, which I prefer. Now let's pretend we understand Tad Mann's theory a bit, (which I really don't yet)........and looking at YOUR chart then, we see the 9th house cusp Leo, and Virgo ruling the house itself, with Sun,Mercury & Mars all together there. This might suggest that your mother was very in tune (mentally, emotionally), and had it all together, so to speak (in Virgo), and planned for this conception to take place. don't know about that... The 10th House having Pluto and Uranus there in Libra, may suggest that there was an accident, (Uranus?), or some type of trauma here, (Pluto), during the time she carried you (about 8 weeks into the pregnancy or longer).......perhaps just before acknowledging she was indeed pregnant, (the M/C is the awareness of same) Neptune in the 12th House may suggest that mom was anesthsized for the birth itself. (Neptune = drug or something to keep asleep or not feel the pain).......not at all, very quick and straightforward birth Sun (dad) in the 9th, is square to Saturn (his father??), or perhaps some sort of restriction about the pregnancy........ taking place. Jupiter (uncle, doctor, someone here, perhaps an older male) in the 1st, and square to the Sun, may suggest that again, there was some "issue" concerning the pregnancy, that your parents were forced to confront. well, I don't really know anything about these circumstances apart from once my mum mentioned that "she nearly did not make it to the hospital" - she was walking there on her own...strong woman Usually Jupiter rising, is considered a good position, but with these squares I wonder then, what that's about?? Does Mann's theory fit at all?? wonder if it would fit with placidus system |
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YES! I forgot, it is supposed to be best using Placidius, as the house cusps are then, Precessed, so Placidius, is what he uses....... .............did I use Equal? sorry. Does it make a difference then, is more the question.. As well as getting proficient at what Tad Mann suggests about the natal, and knowing how to read the cusps, planets as symbolic of our lives. I think I need practice however, |
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I'll try mine next. Check out my Natal Chart Thread, and I'll experiment there next. |
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