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Sidereal Charts : Classical Astrology ** Equal House System
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 Message 1 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamegeorgebailey1947  (Original Message)Sent: 2/21/2007 12:36 AM
using the Lot of Fortune as an alternate ascendant was a foundational aspect of natal chart reading. From "The Anthology" Vol 2,part 1 page 29:

"In another manner, when you have come to know the place allotted for Fortune,also consider the squares to it and the remaining figures to be,as it were,upon the genthlialogical pivot points. That is, the Lot itself will possess the power of the Horoskopos,that of life; the tenth zoidion from this, the power of the Midheaven,that of reputation....and the remaining places will possess the power of the 12 regions. For some have mystically established the universal Horoskopos and its squares to be cosmic pivot points,but the Lot and its squares to be the genethlialogical pivot points."

This last sentence is particularly important, as it establishes the primacy of this method. If we take the word genethlialogical to mean "pertaining to the geniture", or better yet, "specific to the geniture". Thus we must look at our whole sign charts not only from the ascendant,but from the Lot of Fortune as well.

show the compatibility between Vedic and Hellenistic astrological systems: whole sign houses, using derivative houses from alternate ascendants to glean more meaning and using more than one house to signify an area of life(for instance, the use of the 5th,10th and 11th to represent children).

So, as this pertains to the original question about which house represents war I thought it might be good to look at a warriors' chart.

George Washington
Feb 22 1732
10:00 am
Wakefield Corner, VA
76w57 38n10
Ascendant 18Taurus26
Lot of Fortune 2Aries39


Taurus rising is an interesting ascendant for a general. Maybe we might expect to see Venus in Aries or Scorpio, or perhaps with Mars.
 
Venus is exalted in Pisces in the 11th house. This shows the way to success being paved by "higher ups" but still no indication of the ravages of war.

The Lot of Fortune is Aries. George Washington's other ascendant is now Aries,  A  warrior.
 
Where is Mars? He's in the 7th - the house the later tradition would use to represent war. However, the natal 7th is also the 8th house from the Lot of Fortune and Mars is in his own domicile there. (USE DERIVATIVE HOUSES)

The ruler of the radical 8th is Jupiter. He seems safely tucked away in the 6th house. However, this position puts him in direct opposition to the Lot of Fortune. Notice in both cases that there is a benefic influence to the 8th house indicators in both cases - Mars in his own domicile in the 8th from the Lot and Jupiter,the greater benefic, ruling the 8th and aspecting the Lot. 
 
 the ruler of the 8th definitely becomes a malefic in my opinion but since the 8th represents "that which is inherited from the dead" and "those who profit from death" benefit can come to the native through that "channel" and George Washington's chart definitely shows it extremely clearly using the Lot of Fortune as the ascendant.


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 Message 2 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamegeorgebailey1947Sent: 2/21/2007 12:45 AM
                        Hellenistic and Classical Astrology
 
classical and Hellenistic references for the house of war and concludes  it must have been the 8th house.?
 
 Al Biruni has the 2nd house as 'friends & enemies', maybe this has to do with the reference of this house to the 'Gate of Hades.'
 
 I do not understand how ones enemies can be attributed to the 2nd house which traditionally would be ones allies.
 
Valens associates the 4th house to retribution, though there is no direct relationship to war here, retribution could be seen in one manner as the aggressive act of war brought back to the native/country etc.
 
The fifth house can be totally discounted as having anything to do with war. The 6th house is enemies (vengeance according to Hermes and retribution according to Paulus) but not the act of war.
 
musing further: (looking for the house of War) for Washington:
 
 
The 7th house is 'that which is opposed to life', again no specific references to war (medieval astrology has this house as the house of disputes & war, though I personally think this may have been misunderstood from some poor translation of earlier classical texts).
 
 totally at a loss as to how Valens saw the 7th as the house of luck or chance. The 8th house has obvious connotations for war being the house of death, but the only ancient reference  was Valens statement that this is the house of justice.
 
 The ninth house is hard to allocate as the house of war. Being the house of the Sun this is more like our connection to god, even though many wars have been fought on the supposed grounds of god/religion it is unlikely to be connected with war /
 
 The tenth house has to do with ruling, leading, reputation and honours but has no direct association with war.
 
The eleventh house, like the fifth is considered to be a fortunate house and also has no natural association with war. 
 
The 12th has more to do with enemies that we don't know about, this would seem to exclude this house on the grounds that wars were fought in open combat in ancient times which really only leaves the 8th because of the connections with death.
 
area that intrigues is the 8 house octot(r)opos system uses houses in a diurnal fashion where the 8th diurnal house is the same as the second house of the dodekatropos or twelve house system.
 
Could this give a clue as to why the second house of the latter is seen as the 'Gate of Hades?'
 
This would be in keeping with the four house system which sees the 1st house as life, the 10th as we know it today as youth, the 7th as we know it today as maturity and the 4th, as old age and death - Today called the house (in medieval horary style) as the 'end of matter' or 'end of the matter.'

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 Message 3 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamegeorgebailey1947Sent: 2/21/2007 1:22 AM
the *axis of evil* or Gates of Hades, 
or the 2nd/8th House Axis.
 
reputation classical:   the 6th (bad fortune) 8th(facing death) and 12th(the bad spirit-the face of your enemy.
 
 whole sign for pure rulership over the areas of life and I use Porphyry for planetary strength, regarding the angles.
 
 
                  THE LOTS IN CLASSICAL/HELLINISTIC
The LoF is a kind of 'quasi' ascendant for the fortuna system; 'that which befalls man.'
 
To paraphrase Schmidt the LoF acts as a kind of lookout for the ship. The life, by and during Valens time was commonly referred to as a voyage, where each of the members of the natal chart were seen as participants in that voyage. The natal ascendant is the steersman and the LoF ruler is the lookout for pirates, iceburgs etc. He needs to be able to 'see' the helmsman in order to communicate what lies ahead.
 
 If he has no Ptolemaic aspect to the ascendant, he needs to be able to see the helmsman's ruler, for if these have no connection the ship would metaphorically crash.
 
 The natal ascendant and his ruler are primary.
 
By the ship crashing; it is meant that one could not guide life/fortune in a prosperous manner. The lookout could not communicate favourable times to take advantage of, nor could he communicate approaching storms so the 'life' ran aground.
 
The LoF is only the lookout for what lies ahead, for good or bad.
 
There is a common misconception that the LoF is benefic which is not the case.
 
 He is looking out for what is prosperous but also for ill wind, storms and other things than can befall man. The first inspection of the LoF is whether he is angular, succeedent, or cadent with respect to the nativity.
 
An angular LoF had the capability to effect ones fortune and commonly make the 'happiness' strong;
 
a succeedent LoF would describe a middling fortune, either good. bad or middling but stable. The cadent LoF describes the fortune as weakened, poor or unpredictable. This consideration was taken in harmony with the sect rulers in respect to the fortuna system because these tell what parts of life these fortunes would be in effect.
 
If the LoF was angular (strongest) then in the fotuna houses you needed to have planets or sect rulers in the fortuna houses 1,10, 7 & 4 because these were the strongest (angular) placements in the fortuna system.
 
 
 
Along with the LoF,  the Lot of Spirit was equally important with regard to what action a native does, and what comes back to him from the direct result of those actions.
 
 They also used Eminence indicators such as the Lot of Exaltation, and necessity indicators such as the Lot of Basis. All of these were considered fairly equal because the 'necessity' was what one had to be responsible for; Eminence was the public recognition, LoF was  fate or chance 
and LoS was action or work related returns.
 
 

Reply
 Message 4 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamegeorgebailey1947Sent: 2/21/2007 1:30 AM
further background info includes these from the various  books:
 

Title: "Concerning the Star Allotted the Hour(Ascendant) or the Lot.

First Sentence: "When Kronos is allotted the Hour or the Lot, if it marks the hour but is not opposed by Ares,such a one will be accounted happy in the activity apportioned by Kronos"

There are two footnotes written by Robert Schmidt regarding this sentence

Note 5: "As will be seen in section 18, Valens regards the Lot of Fortune as an analog of the Horoskopos, and the origin of its own house system. Throughout this section the two will be delineated together".

Note 6: This phrase("if it marks the hour") and similar ones that follow,means that when a planet rules the rising zoidion or the zoidion of the Lot of Fortune and is in the Horoskopos of the rising zoidion or the zoidion of the Lot of Fortune, it has these effects."

Are we still sure that looking at the LOF as a natal ascendant can't be done? Let's go back to Valens.

From Book 4 Section 7 page 14

Valens is discussing using the zoidions of the lots of fortune and spirit to begin a planetary period based on the ascensional times of each zoidion.  two quotes from the section.

"If then, the division should come from the Spirit to the Midheaven of the Lot of Fortune, or even to the Lot itself....the child will come into leadership and great reputation..."

"And when the division takes place upon the Horoskopos and upon the Midheaven and upon the remaining pivots, it will produce reputation,but not in the same way; for the places square to the lots are more energetic."

Two footnotes also accompany this section. One by Robert Schmidt concerning the first quote.

Note 1 - "Here again we see a lot used as the Horoskopos of a derivative house system"

And one by Rob Hand concerning the second:

Note 2 - "That is, the Lot's  pivots seem to be more potent than the pivots from the Horoskopos. Exclamation points are in order here !!" (i.e. squares as pivots).....
 
 

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 Message 5 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamegeorgebailey1947Sent: 2/21/2007 1:33 AM
 
beautiful gifs, and a short explanation.
 
 What is Classical Astrology?<o:p></o:p>

            Classical Astrology as a specific term is used in two different ways.  It can refer only to the astrology of the Hellenistic Era and the Roman, Late and Early Byzantine Empires. (In this usage it is synonymous with the term “ancient astrology.�? Or, it can be used as a general term, synonymous with “traditional astrology,�?meaning the astrology practiced in the western world prior to about 1700.  In that sense it includes ancient astrology as well as medieval and Renaissance astrology.

From the link:

 Classical astrology puts meat on the bones of astrology while adding height and depth to its soul and spirit.  As a divinatory art and science (in its original meaning of ‘knowledge�?, it helps to put us back in touch with the divine.


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 Message 6 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamegeorgebailey1947Sent: 2/21/2007 2:56 AM
Articles:
 
Temperance:
 
 
Families: (Placidius/tropical charts)
 

Book Review: The Real Astrology and The Real Astrology Applied by John Frawley

by Dorian Gieseler Greenbaum © 2002

 <o:p></o:p>

            Last year, without much fanfare, one of the most provocative and compelling astrology books to appear in recent years was published.  The Real Astrology is John Frawley's irreverent, intelligent and incisive skewering of much of what is wrong with modern astrology, coupled with an introduction to the tools of traditional astrology.  Frawley is a traditional astrologer who bases much of his practice of astrology on William Lilly, but who has more than a passing acquaintance with other great names from astrology's past: Ptolemy, Abu Ali Al-Khayyat, Al Biruni and Bonatti among them.

            Frawley is passionate about his subject, which is one of the reasons his book is so hard to put down.  He is also an excellent writer who has a mordant wit which he uses to great effect (and some of his comments are just laugh-out-loud funny).  You may not agree with everything he says, but there is no arguing with how well he says it.  At times his impalement of many of the practices of modern astrology borders on the cruel �?but as they say, "the truth hurts."  He takes well-aimed jabs at such modern abominations as the sun-sign column.  He also makes what I imagine will be less popular attacks on the darlings of the humanistic and psychological/Jungian astrology movements, Dane Rudhyar and Liz Greene (he calls Rudhyar's work "intellectual blancmange," while describing Greene's work as falling "between two stools, being scorned by both psychologists and those with a working knowledge of sound astrology�?").  This is strong stuff, but it certainly does make for an interesting read!

            As entertaining as these ambushes are, they actually disguise the true value of The Real Astrology.  This lies in Frawley's brilliant, and at times poetic, discussion of the philosophical and sacred foundation of astrology.  Frawley is well aware of the divine component of astrological knowledge, and he is not afraid to mention God when he talks about it: "…implicit in its [astrology's] teachings is the truth that all power is with God, and all things are subject to His will."  Our secular age has lost this connection to the divine, and that is why astrology struggles in modern culture; as Frawley says, "Astrology is a sacred science �?take away the sacred and we have nothing." 

Continuing on, he tackles the nature of time (real and clock time), the order of the cosmos, and makes an analysis of essence and matter that is in my opinion worth the price of the book.  "In the heart of each object is its essence; all around it is its accidental form.  The classic image of essence is as the Idea in the mind of the Divine Architect, the accidental form of which Idea appears to us as an object in the world. �?Without recognising the existence of essence, we are left only with the material�? Left only with the material, we cannot possibly provide a convincing explanation for the workings of astrology."  Frawley follows his philosophical discussion with a practical introduction on how essence works in astrology.

I do not agree with everything Frawley says (for instance, his rejection of the day-night differentiations of the Parts of Fortune and Spirit and those which derive from them; and I also have some minor technical quibbles with him), but on the whole I believe his work to be immensely important reading for any astrologer interested in the philosophy behind the concepts we take for granted, or ignore, in our art.

Frawley has followed up The Real Astrology with a sequel, The Real Astrology Applied, which was published this summer.  It consists of a series of essays mostly published in his journal, The Astrologer's Apprentice (though revised for the book), and is designed to further explore the practical application of the ideas introduced in The Real Astrology.  Again, with his biting sense of humor and ability to cut to the heart of the matter, Frawley writes about Arabian parts, antiscia, dignity and reception, the Moon and fixed stars, and a long (about 60 pages) exposition on the houses.  For the philosophy junkies (I include myself), there is a wonderful essay called "The Internal King," which again explores astrology's relationship to the divine, soul and matter.  There is also a section on assessing temperament, which refines and improves what he said about temperament in The Real Astrology, and also gives a critique of Lilly's method for determining temperament.  I have made a special study of temperament myself, and completely agree with Frawley that it is a most important component in analyzing a chart.

Interspersed with the essays is Frawley's humorous take on advice columns, "Neptunia Replies…a word from our sensitive seer."  These letters and responses provide an easy opportunity for Frawley to skewer the mushiness of much modern astrology (and usually hilariously), but they also give him the means to explore certain aspects of traditional astrology and philosophy.

Perhaps Frawley's style is not for everyone (though at the very least I find it quite entertaining!), and perhaps you will also disagree with what he says,  but both The Real Astrology and The Real Astrology Applied are books with original and creative ideas, and worlds away from much of the astrological pap that is published today.  John Frawley's is an invigorating voice in astrology today, and his books are well worth your investigation.

 

an article about Horary Tips (Lilly), from Frawley's sites:

http://www.johnfrawley.com/mag.html

 

 

 
 

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 Message 7 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamegeorgebailey1947Sent: 2/21/2007 4:30 AM
I read this somewhere, and was very surprised:
 
 It is more a frustration then,  that ancient writers, who were not even practicing astrologers, get the nod of approval merely because of their antiquity.
 
I feel that this is one of the greatest bugbears to the revival of traditional astrology. It is of course true that Claudius Ptolemy wasn't an astrologer either, but an anthologist.
 
However, while some of the details of his work may not be the best possible source for all things, for the most part he is exceedingly useful and required reading no matter what your final view. He is an inexorable element in the landscape of traditional astrology. I believe that this in due, in large part, to the fact that he appears to thoroughly understand the philosophical / metaphysical unpinning of the cosmology that cannot be separated from the art with impunity.
 
Perhaps more to the point, those who followed him tended to have high degrees of success, if such can be measured by the accuracy demonstrated in the results of the craft. To the very best of my knowledge, nobody became an accomplished astrologer by following dear old Firmicus. Does that mean we shouldn't read him? Of course not, but the proof of theory is in the results of its applications. So far all the one's I have read have proven to be spurious.
 
author unknown, but will acknowledge, if anyone knows who this author was.
 

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