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| | (2 recommendations so far) | Message 1 of 12 in Discussion |
| From:  Advnelisgi® (Original Message) | Sent: 8/20/2005 4:22 PM |
In most survival situations any form of firearm would be preferred. Of course some guns are more suitable than others. The main function of a survival gun is to provide meat and to defend the shooter against human or animal aggressors, so to my mind this excludes any single shot weapons. A quick second shot is also a very useful thing to have when hunting too. The weapon should not be too much of a burden, particularly if you're already carrying a rucksac and other equipment and should be as versatile/ multi purpose as possible. Ammo must be readily available in the area and must do the job that is required of it. It must be robust and weather resistant. If fitted with a scope it should have good iron sights as well. The best attempt at a general purpose rifle that was Jeff Cooper's "Scout rifle" idea in the 38th edition of Gun Digest (1985).
The Scout rifle was designed to be a " ......general purpose rifle that would meet the needs of an individual on his own rather than a member of a fire team."
Cooper suggested that such a rifle have certain characteristics. It should have adequate power to incapacitate any animal of 500lbs or less with one solid hit in the vital zone to the limits of vision. "Limit of vision" was defined as the greatest distance at which 20-20 eyes can discern the vital zone. It should be suitable for snap shots and of acceptable accuracy. Cooper defined that acceptable accuracy for a general field rifle need only be 2 or 2.5 moa, since this will hit a 10" disc at 50-550 yds.
"Acceptable accuracy" was quite a radical concept since so many of us fixate on a weapon's accuracy. The Scout doesn't need to be a thousand yard tack driver, it just needs to be capable of putting a round through a deer's "boiler room" a realistic hunting ranges.
The rifle itself would need to be light and handy. Under a metre long and under 7lb unloaded but with scope and sling. A synthetic stock was suggested for both lightness and durability. Hunting guns such as the Scout spend much more time being carried than they are shot. Cooper wanted as compact an action as possible, so selected a short action bolt action. One of the points that Cooper made that is true for all survival arms is that it should have a good set of iron sights, irrespective of whether a scope is fitted. Many hunting rifles are sold with only rudimentary iron sights, or none at all. A survival arm should have a back-up to any optics. For the Scout he suggests a rear large aperture "Ghost" ring. Chamberings for the Scout should be capable of taking a 500lb animal, widely available and capable of use a short stroke action. His suggestions were the .243 Winchester, 7mm-08 Rem and 7.62mm NATO/ .308 Win, all of which are based on the same case.
Given the above requirements, It is not surprising that the main round suggested for the Scout is 308 Win/7.62mm NATO. Because it is so commonplace, it is easy to underestimate this round. It is a fine high performance, all-around hunting cartridge and is used by snipers and for match target competition all the way out to 1,000 yards. It's available in 100 grain to 200 grain weights with 150 grain, 165 grain, and 180 grain being common. The rounds of 165gr+ can be used for larger animals such as elk and bear.
The .243 Win was suggested for those who desire less recoil, though Cooper mentions a 22" barrel may be needed to attain sufficient velocity. 55 to 80 grain bullets are suitable for varmint hunting, while the 90 to 115 grain bullets are designed for medium size big game.
The 7mm-08 Rem chambering was for areas where "Military" calibres are illegal. This round is ballistically superior to the .308, approximating about 90% of that performance of the .270 Winchester in a cartridge short enough to work through short action rifles. It's about 200fps better than the 7x57mm Mauser and only 100fps behind the .270. The 120 grain bullet is a good choice for small, light framed animals. For most medium game hunting, the 140 grain bullet is suitable.
The scope mounted forward of the action was one of the Scout rifle's most distinctive features. The long eye relief scope was supposed to offer a good overall field of view and quick target acquisition, as well as better balance and faster reloading when using chargers.
Those are the pros. Some of the cons include.
Rifle scopes with the correct eye relief are relatively rare. The field of view of such scopes is less than that of conventional scopes of the same power. If the sun is behind you light reflecting off the eyepiece may prevent its use. This may not be a problem in the shade of the woods, but may be elsewhere. Another problem is such a configuration is only suited to low power scopes. If your area or shooting style favours higher magnifications, a more conventional mount may be more suitable.
A weapon of this type does not need a particularly complex reticle. Simple crosshairs such as the "Duplex", "German #4" or "Post and Duplex" are ideal.
Cooper suggests a Mannlicher style stock would help counteract barrel heat, though this would be more a problem on the practice range rather than in the field. Fluted barrels would help, and a military style flash hinder/ muzzle brake would be an option since these devices have attained a high efficiency in recent years and are beginning to see acceptance on hunting weapons. In countries such as Finland silenced/supressed hunting rifles are popular. These have the very practical attribute of preserving the hearing of both the hunter and his dogs. Cooper's prototype in was a short action bolt action .308 with an 18.5" barrel weighed 6.75lb with scope and sling and was 37" Loa. A x2 Leupold scope with a 10" eye relief was mounted ahead of the loading slot.
Like so many good ideas, the idea of the Scout rifle could have fallen on stony ground, but just for a change, several manufacturers took up the task. About a year after the Gun Digest article Grendel brought out the SRT, a nine shot weapon with a 20" barrel and a synthetic stock that folded for carriage
The weapon that met with Cooper's personal approval, however, was the Steyr Scout. This is a high quality, very accurate weapon, but unfortunately comes with a price tag to match! Where the Scout was originally described as a "Jeep", this is a Mercedes.
Savage Arms have produced a lower priced alternative, which alledgibly Cooper has called an "Abortion scout" or, more kindly, but bafflingly, "an economy version of the general idea". Savage also offer a range of rifles with increased weather-resistance, but strangely this has not been offered for their Scout.
Springfield Armory offer a "Scout" version of their M14 7.62mm NATO Self loader.
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| | (1 recommendation so far) | Message 2 of 12 in Discussion |
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How about the good ole lever action rifle? Simple to shoot, quick to bring to the shoulder, simple to operate, quick second shot, not the type of weapon to dissappear soon due to the anti gun types in the government. Also many calibers to choose from. Any feedback on this idea??? |
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| | (1 recommendation so far) | Message 3 of 12 in Discussion |
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I have a 45long...I will post a photo..nice short range brush gun...common name saddle gun... Wizard |
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| | (2 recommendations so far) | Message 4 of 12 in Discussion |
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Lever action rifles are great for this sort of thing. 30.30 is a great round for anything up to whitetail size, get any larger than that and you are pushing it. Most lever style rifles are inexpensive and dependable. The calibers available aren't real diverse but are readily available. I have several Marlins and Winchesters, also a Henry octagon barrel in .44mag. That Henry is a great little brush gun, it's short, easy to handle and you can easily take down a deer with it. One thing to remember is if it can take down a deer it can take down a body. I have to run off for a few. I will post about this here shortly, I just had a good idea to share with ya'll. |
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| | (1 recommendation so far) | Message 5 of 12 in Discussion |
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I tried the lever action , but found the feed too unpredictable, in heavy bush. Dragging through blackberry and the likes could spring a round..not like the bolt. But I love the lever in open ground..jmo. |
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| | | From: 444Hal | Sent: 1/29/2006 11:11 PM |
30/30 Lever. Been feeding & protecting for something like 150 years. |
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30-30 works as long as you have enough rounds and know how to use it....  |
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You need to take the time to learn how to shoot. There are very few people that are just a natural with any kind of firearm. You have to practice. When you are first learning, use a 22 long rifle. The ammo is usually rediculously inexpensive (they make good rodent guns too) and readily available just about anywhere that sells ammunition. Like Wiz said though, 30/30 is great IF you know how to use it. Ammo is cheap for them too but you have to be careful what you buy. If I buy pre-made ammunition (with a couple of exceptions for a few of my rifles) then I buy either Federal or Hornady. I have had the best success with those two over many years of shooting. You need to think about your terrain when you buy ie. what is the weather usually doing? Is is high wind all the time, is it really humid or is it dry or in between? Am I going to be shooting over long distances, short distances through heavy brush both? What do I usually hunt with this caliber? Having any sort of firearm is a blessing in a survival situation, but also knowing how to use it is better. There are several handguns that are great for these situations as well. Anyway, before I got off track here, what I meant to say was learn how to shoot first, then get picky. You can usually antique rifles at most sporting goods stores and some hardware stores. The Enfield rifle is a great rifle, whichever model you get (I used to have an Australian Enfield years ago). I think I saw a picture of one with a scope on it that Jim took and posted. I will have to go look again to make sure that's what is was. You can sporterize these rifles to make them lighter. They are 303 caliber. One of my favorite rifles is the M1. They still make these and they are fabulous weapons, tried and true. Military surplus firearms are great, just keep an eye on what you buy and there are a lot you can get that are from europe with funky calibers that are hard to find the ammunition for. A very good friend of mine reloads and he is exceptional at it (been doing it for almost 30 years). I am starting to get into it, and it's cheaper than buying by a landslide. I have reloaded shotgun shells for years, but am just now starting to study brass cartridge reloading. Something to think about, especially if you shoot a lot. |
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Lever guns are okay but the action is not really suited for laying down and shooting. There are to many better actions out there if you want a manual feed. Pump guns are still pretty easy to get and used ones are cheap. A rifle in .45 long colt is a waste of money. If you are going to carry a rifle find a rifle caliber. That is if you are going to use it for serious shooting. Now as a fun rifle to shoot it is great. I used an SKS for a while and liked the gun but felt that the round was lacking for what I wanted it for. A garand is a great gun but carry it in the hills for a couple of days. BUT a great round!! and available. |
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308 is my choice, but a 45 long silver tip will take out anyhing at100 yards not talking cowboy rounds..... |
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I have been getting into the handy rifles. You know the little one shot break open rifles and shotguns? You can find them used for fifty bucks and they are the most reliable guns you will ever get. I think we think to much of high dollar guns when in reality a simply break open rifle and shotgun will serve most purposes just fine. |
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