1nt-pass-2c-dbl is not a stolen bid double but shows clubs

 

1nt-2c(either naturual or capp or 2 suits or...)-dbl is stolen bid (my bid was stayman)

 

 

 

Yes Ross I was a bit screwed up in  stating the problem.

 

1nt 2c dble (stolen bid = stayman)

1nt 2d/h dble (stolenbid = xfer)

Lorne had said and most experts seems to play " no stolen bids"  saying they rather save it(dble) for a penalty....My opinion was that its unlikely the NT opener would let the dble go unless he was sure he could set it ....   so in essence the penalty dble bis was a wasted bid anyway! 

Did i get it right this time  No wonder spade didnt respond to my first post  guess I found something to confuse her :-)

Morgann when I make a penalty double after pard has opened 1N, there is no option to it.  I am the deciding party because pard's hand is limited.  So pard does not pull my double.

Rusty

1nt  2c(capp) DBLE  Now the 2c bidder may or may not have clubs  So what are you doubling?  2C IS AN ARTIFICAL BID  , ISNT IT? SAME AS 2D/2H

Unless there are conventions or agreements which informs the nt opener what is in your hand  or the quality of your hand when you double for penalty

The reason why this was recalled was that recently I played with a new person and he t0ld me he did not like stolen dbles because it took away then oprion of doubling

for penalty..Of course I said okay ....But what is he doubling ? Whwn the overcaller bids 2c.d/h/s   s/he is not bididng that suit!

Perhaps if yu gave me an example I could see the "concept" easier

Morgann, I do not play stolen bid doubles per se.  I do play sys on over 1N-2C overcall and therefore double of 2C is stayman.  I do not play the rest of stolen bid doubles, therefore 1N - 2D  overcall - X  is for penalty.  If it is a Capp 2D showing the Majors  I am saying that I can penalize at least one of the majors.  If it is a DONT 2D showing diamonds and a higher, I am saying I can penalize 2D and may be able to penalize anything else they bid.   I frequently will double with 8 hcp and a flat hand on the general principle that my pard has 15-17 and with my 8 we will normally defeat any contract they bid.  We do not always defeat it, but odds are that we will.  With 9+ points a great deal depends on the vul as to whether I think we can beat the opps more than what we can make.

OK - Morgann - Lets go through the reason why most (if not all) experts prefer not to play stolen bid doubles.

 

Firstly - lets look at your claim that over 1nt calls are 'artificial'. This is not so. In most conventions the suit bid is natural showing that suit and a 2nd suit.

 

So for example, for people who play 'natural' over 1nt then every call is natural.

 

For people who play DONT then each suit bid at the 2 level shows that suit and another suit.

 

For people who play CAPP 2c and 2d are artificial but 2h and 2s show real suits.

 

So most of the time even with conventional calls the suit bid will be 'real'.

 

And even if it is artificial it doesn't matter - responder can still double to show a willingness to penalise that (aritificial) suit. Then when the opps suit is subsequently revealed if either partner subsequently doubles it is for penalty.

 

Let take the typical example.

 

Partner opens 1nt - you non vul - opps vul.

 

The opps overcall 2h in direct seat.

 

Let's say as responder you have 8-9 hcps and 4 good hearts. You are most likely going to get your best score from doubling for penalty...  If you play stolen bid double you have NO penalty option and have to pass or  go for 2 or 3nt - because a double would be a transfer to spades.

 

One of the reasons that the opps like to interfere in your nt auctions is to make it harder for you to find your right spot. Strategically, you need to make them very afraid of stupid interference by whacking them (doubling for penalty) and showing you have the tools to do this. If you play stolen bid doubles you  have no penalty options and the opps have a free ride. When I see 'stolen bid' doubles on the cc I make a note to myself - 'interfere on weaker hands - they have no penalty option'...but it says more than that...they in general don't have a method for dealing with interference. Stolen bid doubles on the cc is an invitation to interfere and make bids helpful for the defense.

 

The major difference I see between weaker players and stronger players is that stronger players will more often move in for the kill with a penalty double...

 

What I notice is that weaker players tend to have one goal in bidding...to win the contract like it's a real auction and as a result they often 'pay too much'...stronger players have two goals - bid to their right level and make the opps pay for bidding too much. This is the reason that weaker players tend to complain  more about 'the cards'.

 

 

 

 

 

very good input ross,i agree stolen doubles are not one of my favorite treaments,and if used or abused,do take away the penalty option.

The alternatives are not just "play stolen bid doubles" or "play all systems off."  The best option is to learn and play Lebensohl, which was designed to solve all these problems.

Morgann you learn Lebensohl:))  Lebensohl while a fairly difficult tool to get used to is invaluable when there is NT interference.

i agree with the use of leb.in defference to stolen x[BTW in leb x is penalty],but no treatment or convention solves all problems ,IMO they are a tool to help partnership arrive at the best contract.

You're wrong Spade, Lebensohl solves ALL problems including insomnia, impotence and runs in your hose.

Floow up Ross

And another "fear" is  sure we might set 2c/d/h dbled for 100 or 200 but we mayt have had a game somewhere for 400 -620

The bidding has gone

 

1nt-2h

 

Here's a few options...

Re : your follow-up Morgann...

 

 

If you think game will score better then don't double  and go for game...but it's a matter of judgement - you might have no game that makes and double might make +500 - do you want to give this option up?