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To whom it may concern: Since the director skipped the board in question, I cannot send you a text copy. The bidding went: North East South West -------- ------ -------- ------- --- --- Pass 1nt 2H* Dbl 2nt* p 3D Bidding stopped here, and ruling made. This director ruled correctly that 2H should have been alerted as Hearts and a minor, which it wasn't until after the 2nt bid, which also should have been alerted. However, he also ruled that the dbl of 2H should have been alerted, even though it was for penalties. (Our cc says 'lebensohl'). He claimed that it is conventional if it is for penalties. Because 'both sides were at fault for failing to alert', the board was scored an average, and skipped. I believe at the very least the NS pair should get a procedural penalty, and the EW pair should get whatever the result would have been. I realize the futility of challenging any ruling on Swan. Opinions? |
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What's Lebensohl have to do with any of this.? |
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Clearly, Tom cannot submit a full appeal including hand record. This is the fault of the director (as Lorne mentioned - stopping play should not be an option). There is a legitimate issue with regard to timelieness with regard to an appeal (once the results of the tourny have been announced, it is much tougher to change them). Still, it is worthwhile to do something so that the other directors have a chance to advance this ones education with regard to alerts of doubles (especially natural ones) and the issue of failing to allow the board to be completed. |
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Some time ago, I did some research into how various governing bodies handle alerts of doubles. I was looking for something that made sense in the online world (i.e. alerts of doubles do not involve UI online while they certainly do ftf). The closest analogy to online bridge in the ftf world is bridge with screens (IMHO). The WBF at least mentions screens: If screens are not in use, do NOT alert the following: - All doubles.
Unfortunately, they do not follow up with guidlines for when screens are in use! |
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Although Tom didn't play the hand it should be available for posting here from the tournament hand records. It would be interesting to look at. Regardless, I will stand by my statement that "I can almost guarantee..." no damage since I can't think of a hand (but there might be one) where East would double a natural 2H (showing hearts and not denying possesion of a 2nd suit) but would choose some other action over an alerted 2H (showing hearts and a minor). If someone can show me that hand I'll eat my words and change it to "I think it is more likely.."  |
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| | | From: JoAnneM | Sent: 11/16/2008 6:36 PM |
I misread the bidding, no lebensohl. Now, it makes even less sense why the director would think that double would require alerting. But I almost got kicked out of Swan a few months ago for criticizing this director, so enough said by me. |
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Although Tom didn't play the hand it should be available for posting here from the tournament hand records. Unfortunately only players who actually played the hand can find a hand record at swan. BTW Lorne , you are still our fearless leader, what are we going to do if MSN shuts us down in Feb? |
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Tom can't access the hand since he didn't play it, but, if he can remember the game time, date and board number I should be able to find the board. If not the board number, then the round number if possible.......or, if all else fails, I can go through his boards until I find the missing one....but will need the date and time. Since, his was skipped, I won't be able to do more than find the deal and can look to see the usual contract. |
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Actually, Tom can give me the board number by going back and looking up the game and the board number will be the number missing in the board sequence. That would save lots of time. |
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BTW, the double does not need to be alerted. I cannot imagine why the director would think it needed an alert. |
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MPS-NV/NV KJ-AK109x-K9xxx-x AQx-Qxx-A10xx-KJx 8xx-Jxxx-xx-Axxxx 1097xx-x-QJ-Q109xx The hand was played 17 times by N/S most usually in 2 or 3 hearts or diamonds and made 2H 4 times, 3D 1 time and was down in the remaining 12 contracts. It played twice by west, 1N making and 2N down 1. The auction at Tom's table was 1N(w)2H-X-2N-p-3D and auction was stopped... 2H was not alerted until after the 2N bid, according to Tom's post. |
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the 2nt bid was doubled by the 1nt opener, as i stated in Message 2. |
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3D-X down 2 would have been a great MP score. Perhaps toward the end of January I will migrate this group to the new location. |
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| | | Sent: 11/17/2008 12:38 PM |
| This message has been deleted by the manager or assistant manager. |
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I'm hoping MSN takes so much grief they decide to continue the groups. Like what happened when they tried to replace outlook express with live mail. |
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A lot depends on what the double of 2H is. If it's for a stolen bid, then the ruling really doesn't make a lot of sense. If it was for penalty, then I'd wonder about the quality of the opposition - if memory serves, negative doubles are NOT the standard in this sequence and therefore it's an understood that it's penalty oriented regardless of the alertability of it. I am of the view that N/S shouldn't get a procedural penalty, and that E-W earns whatever score occurred. |
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