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General : Our NT structure sucks
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Recommend  Message 1 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameBartonFinchley  (Original Message)Sent: 12/14/2008 3:30 AM
1st off my 3nt is clearly incorrect I have enough for a quantitative 4nt.   However pard with his 4333  16 count should decline.  I have to some how show him a good club suit and slam invitational values. 
 
 
 
 
 .----------------------------------------------------.
   |Dealer: W          ===North========     Brd# 145060 |
   |Declarer: W        > susanb            Scoring: IMP |
   |Vulnerable: Both   S: 96                            |
   |Contract: 3NT      H: JT74                          |
   |Result: Made 7     D: QJ72                          |
   |Score: -720        C: 862                           |
   |===West=========                   ===East========= |
   |> TWOferBRIDGE     .----------.    > BartonFinchley |
   |S: KT53            |          |    S: AJ2           |
   |H: Q85             |          |    H: AK9           |
   |D: AK3             |          |    D: T5            |
   |C: A97             .----------.    C: QJT54         |
   |                                                    |
   |                   ===South========                 |
   |                   > park_in_the_su                 |
   |                   S: Q874                          |
   |                   H: 632                           |
   |                   D: 9864                          |
   |                   C: K3                            |
   .----------------------------------------------------.
BIDDING:
West  North East  South
1NT   Pass  3NT   Pass 
Pass  Pass 

 


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Recommend  Message 2 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameBill_Higgins1Sent: 12/14/2008 3:55 AM
I don't know what your no-trump structure is. But, using fairly normal 4 suit transfers this is straight forward:
Transfer to clubs and then bid 4N - quantitative slam try showing balanced hand with 5+ clubs.
 
No guarantees that opener will go.

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Recommend  Message 3 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameTWOferBRIDGESent: 12/14/2008 12:01 PM
I've a fair number of posts in my files, many be Barton, lamenting the same title:
 " Our NT structure sucks" -- emphasis on the minor suits .
 
One needs a structure to handle :
      -- long Cl  ( weak, invitational, or strong-slammish )
      -- long Diam (  "        "                     "                    )
      -- 5/4+ in the minors ( weak, invitational, or strong )
 
The trouble is running out of bids at a decent level to fit all situations.
At least one situation willsuffer when picking any structure
 
If using Minor Suit Stayman ( for the 5/4+ ), it is difficult to express the long, strong Cl hand.
 
If using 4-suit transfers, the  5/4+ hands suffer.
 
Our old friend, IanD, for example felt MSS cases outweighed the need for 4-suit transfers.
 
But our other old friend, jobanjo preferred conditional 4 suit transfers.
Here is what she said six years ago in response to one of my posts ( Minor Suit Transfers and MSS )
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From: jobanjo Sent: 12/8/2002 9:30 PM
Twofer, if you play Conditional 4-Suit xfers, you can play 2S and 2NT for weak, strong or invitational hands. That frees up 3C and 3D for the MSS hand types. I used to play as Wash Stnd. plays, but I prefer 3C=4-4 or better, slammish and 3D, 5-5 or better, GF. With a two suited bust, pick a suit and xfer.
 
After a minor-suit xfer, the weak hand passes or corrects. The invitational hand signs off with no fit and bids game with a fit. The strong hand bids game with no fit and q-bids with a fit.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
 

 
 

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Recommend  Message 4 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamePriorKnowledgeSent: 12/14/2008 1:08 PM
i don't understand the problem.... 1N 4N 6N... why should opener reject with 16? Opener should accept with 16
 

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Recommend  Message 5 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameTWOferBRIDGESent: 12/14/2008 1:24 PM
One more note on IanD's structure.  He used 2NT! to "have it all come together" for the long Cl hands :
   He said he used:  1NT - 2NT! = relay to 3C for
                                                    a) sign-off with weak Cl
                                                    b) cuebidding next if long, Cl slammish
 
  I presume he used:  1NT - 3C/3D jumps for long minor suit invitational hands.
 
 And MSS for the rest :
                       1NT - 2S! =  a) weak, long Diam
                                            b) weak (5/5)+ in minors
                                            c) slammish, 5/4+ either way

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Recommend  Message 6 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameBartonFinchleySent: 12/14/2008 7:22 PM
i don't understand the problem.... 1N 4N 6N... why should opener reject with 16? Opener should accept with 16
 
Not all 16's are created equal  4333  no "fillers"  even with 16 I call that a minimum opener

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Recommend  Message 7 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameTWOferBRIDGESent: 12/14/2008 7:43 PM
In a pamphlet ( 1990 ) by Petroncini & Belladonna entitled:
     " Cue-bidding to Slam " ( Italian cue-bids ) ,
they show the following hcp requirements in general for NT slams:
 
   a)  with opposing balanced hands with NO 5-card suit
              Small slam            33 hcp
             Grand slam            37 hcp
 
But
   b) with opposite balanced hands WITH at least one 5-card suit:
            Small slam             32 hcp
           Grand slam             36 hcp
 
Sooo, Bill seems to have the right idea.  Responder needs to show his 5+ card suit,
and then invite to small slam.  I might add one more thing.  This hand NEEDS a PRE- ACCEPTANCE for an invite.   If Opener's holding in Clubs is just 3 ( or 4 ) small,  there are 2 losers in the Cl suit:
 
       1NT   -    2S! ( transfer to Cl )
         ??
         2NT = preacceptance showing at least high honor-3rd
          3C  = no honor-3rd or possibly a doubleton

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Recommend  Message 8 of 8 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamekey_lime_precisionSent: 12/15/2008 3:53 PM
Playing Keri, it would go:
 
1NT - 2NT* (clubs)
3C - 4NT* (quant balanced raise with clubs).
 
Now I think you get there looking at the body of West's hand.
 
Playing strong club, this hand works a lot better - you get to bid out both hands.

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