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Debate~Discuss : The GOP is at it again.... I hate neocons!
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Reply
Recommend  Message 1 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameMagicGizmo330  (Original Message)Sent: 9/27/2005 12:56 AM
I just got this urgent message from MoveOn.org about a Republican plan to fund Katrina by slashing almost a trillion from things like health care for the poor and elderly, student loans, Amtrak, even eliminating all funds for PBS!
The proposal comes from over 100 members of congress and we need to respond quickly to keep it from gaining momentum. I hope you'll sign MoveOn's petition, asking Congress to rebuild the Gulf Coast by ending Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy, not slashing important services.
 
The orignal email from MoveOn is below:
Dear MoveOn member,
Last week, congressional Republicans responded to hurricane Katrina by proposing to cut nearly a trillion dollars from vital national services, like health care for the poor and elderly, student loans, Amtrak, and eliminating the Corporation for Public Broadcasting (again!).[1] Republican leaders in Congress are now gauging the public’s response to see if they can get away with their plan. We need to show them the answer is no.
The cost of rebuilding the Gulf Coast, while huge, is far less than what President Bush has given away in tax cuts to just the wealthiest 1%[2].  National crises like Hurricanes Rita and Katrina are times for all Americans to stick together and put in our fair share.
 
So today we're launching an urgent petition to Congress to fully rebuild the Gulf Coast and pay for it by ending Bush’s tax cuts for the very wealthy, not by slashing vital services that Americans need. If we can gather a quarter million signatures this week, we can show that this destructive plan just won’t fly.
Please sign today:
[link]
The Republican proposal, titled "Operation Offset," was authored by the Republican Study Committee, a group of over 100 influential members of Congress, including powerful committee chairs and members of the Republican leadership.[3]  The proposal starts with support from at least these 100 representatives, and they are looking to quickly build momentum.
 
A full reconstruction of the Gulf Coast region is generally estimated to cost around $200 billion.[4] We could more than meet this cost by rolling back Bush’s 2001 and 2003 tax cuts for just the wealthiest 1% of the country, which would save us an estimated $327 billion.[5]
 â€œOperation Offset,â€?however, calls for an astounding $949 billion dollars in cuts over 10 years to vital national services.[6] -- almost five times the full cost of reconstruction. To further put that in perspective, it’s also more than 4 times what we’ve spent in Iraq.[7]
This plan is not about “offsetting," or rebuilding - it’s about exploiting this crisis to push their longstanding goals for America. As conservative kingmaker Grover Norquist has often put it, the goal is to get government "down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub."[8] This proposal is their latest attempt to drown the public sector.
The excess the Republicans' proposed cuts is almost unbelievable. You can read the full proposal here:
http://www.moveonpac.org/images/operation_offset/operation_offset.htm
Here are just some of the most egregious cuts:
�nbsp; $225 billion cut from Medicaid, the last-resort health insurance program for the very poor.
�nbsp;$200 billion cut from Medicare, the health care safety net for the elderly and the disabled.
�nbsp;$25 billion cut from the Centers for Disease Control
�nbsp;$6.7 billion cut from school lunches for poor children
�nbsp;$7.5 cut from programs to fight global AIDS
�nbsp;$5.5 billion to eliminate all funding for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting
�nbsp;$3.6 billion cut to eliminate the National Endowments for the Arts and Humanities
�nbsp;$8.5 billion cut to eliminate all subsidized loans to graduate students.
�nbsp;2.5 bullion cut from Amtrak
�nbsp;$2.5 billion to eliminate the Hydrogen Fuel Initiative
�nbsp;$417 million cut to eliminate the Minority Business Development Agency
�nbsp;$4.8 billion cut to eliminate all funding for the Safe and Drug-Free schools program
And the list goes on and on.
Which and how many of these cuts move forward in congress depends largely on the public response this week.
As the reconstruction begins our country faces a basic question: Will we respond to Katrina by banding together to solve national problems, or by helping the wealthy and powerful cut and run while those left behind fend for ourselves?
 
The radical Republicans have spoken up loud and clear with their answer, and we must respond with ours.
Please sign today:
[link]
Thanks for all that you do.
The gang.
[1] “Lawmakers Prepare Plans to Finance Storm Relief,�The New York Times, September 20th 2005
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/21/national/nationalspecial/21cong.html
Note: the $500 billion referred to this article only covers section 1 in “Operation Offset� The full proposal has six sections and calls for total cuts of $949,674,000,000 over 10 years.
See the full proposal here: http://www.moveonpac.org/images/operation_offset/operation_offset.htm
[2] Center for American Progress
http://thinkprogress.org/2005/09/22/progressive-spending/
[3] The Republican Study Committee
http://johnshadegg.house.gov/rsc/about.htm
Some examples of prominent RSC members include:
RSC Founder Rep. John Doolittle (AZ), Republican Conference Secretary
Rep. Eric Cantor (VA) Chief Deputy Majority Whip
Rep. Richard Pombo (CA), Chair, House Committee on Resources
Rep. Joe Barton (TX), Chair, House Committee on Energy and Commerce
[4] “How to spend (almost $1 billion a day)�Time Magazine, September 26th, 2005 http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1106310,00.html
[5] Center for American Progress
http://thinkprogress.org/2005/09/22/progressive-spending/
[6] Operation Offset, RSC Budget Options 2005 Rephttp://www.moveonpac.org/images/operation_offset/operation_offset.htm
[7] Based on a $196 billion dollar cost for the Iraq war to date.
National Priorities Project
http://costofwar.com/
[8] “Grover Norquist: ‘Field Marshal�of the Bush Plan� The Nation, May 14th 2001
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20010514/dreyfuss
 

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Reply
Recommend  Message 3 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameJRowlettSent: 9/27/2005 1:47 AM
hi giz,
 
yep its a boatload of bs isn't it/  pbs has been on the hit list since i can remember.  i love pbs even if i don't agree with the left leaning of it.  but hey,  its surpost to be that way and the rep's have talk raido so they need to step off.
its pretty much as an extream responce as the other side wanting to stop the tax cuts.  they will find middle ground as time passes.
but lets do this different this time.  we can sit here and debate this to death like i would bet some say.  lol  i tell you what,  why dont you take a side.  ummmmmm lets say you can be the rep congressman and i will ........ lets see i can be the dem congressman.   no?  whats that ???  HELL NO!!!!
ok then you be the dem and i will be the rep.  but next time its my turn.  we are locked in a room and have to hammer this out.  i'll start.
 
ok giz you don't want to cut these programs but you want to cut the tax breaks.  well that doesn't do much for me as the ppl i repersent need those breakes. and ten years is a long time to lose them.  how about we cut all tax breaks for one year?  that will save 780 billion in just one year.
 
what do you think?
 
jayyr

Reply
Recommend  Message 4 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameArtLuvsOralSent: 9/27/2005 5:06 AM
Check this out......................
 
A friend sent this to me and it is one hell of an interesting, blunt, to the point, no hold barred article regarding New Orleans and Hurricane Katrina.........
Art
 
We Failed You? Try Again.
Anne Rice blames America, not local officials.



"To my country I want to say this: During this crisis
you failed us. You looked down on us; you dismissed
our victims; you dismissed us. You want our Jazz Fest,
you want our Mardi Gras, you want our cooking and our
music. Then when you saw us in real trouble, when you
saw a tiny minority preying on the weak among us, you
called us "Sin City," and turned your backs."

By Novelist and New Orleans resident Anne Rice

Let me get this straight:

Ms. Rice, you live in (what was) a very attractive
city which lies below sea level. On one side you have
a giant lake; on the other side you have the Gulf of
Mexico. Running through the middle is the Mississippi
River. All of which are above you.

Preventing those giant bodies of water from flooding
and drowning you are levees. These levees are
described as century-old. People have been warning
about the devastating effects of a direct hit from a
hurricane for decades.

I've heard a great deal of complaint in recent days
that the federal government may not have allocated
enough money to speed up the upgrades to those levees.
This does, however, raise the question of why city and
state residents were waiting around for the federal
government to send enough money to upgrade this,
instead of paying for it themselves. I mean, it was
only your homes, businesses, and lives at stake.
Perhaps these upgrades would have been expensive. If
only this city had some sort of events to attract
tourists, from which to collect taxes.

Anyway, your state and local officials decided to
spend your tax dollars on something else that they
(and presumably you) found more important, and then
they waited for the rest of the country to pay for
these life-preserving necessities.

Your beloved city and region has a colorful political
history, in which there is, oh, a wee bit of
corruption. I'm from New Jersey, so I cant throw
stones at that glass house. But you guys have managed
to pick leaders who give you the worst of both worlds they're scandal ridden and incompetent in a crisis.
Look, Rudy Giuliani might have run around with Judith
Nathan before his divorce, but he was a hell of a
leader in our darkest hours. You know the National
Review crowd isn't a fan of Pataki, but the man was a
rock after 9/11 compared to Governor Weepy
I'll-Evacuate-Eventually and Mayor
It's-Everybody's-Fault-Except-Mine. Nobody's throwing
around the adjective ,Churchillian, about any of your
officials these days. We didn't pick your local
officials; you guys did.

Rice asks, how many times did Gov. Kathleen Blanco
have to say that the situation was desperate? How many
times did Mayor Ray Nagin have to call for aid??

Ahem. What about those buses left unused, less than a
mile from the Superdome? JunkYardBlog notes that it's
written in the Southeast Louisiana Evacuation Plan
that buses are supposed to be used for evacuation of
those who don't have personal vehicles. As JYB
observes, there is something very peculiar about a
city and a state that have a plan on the books for
years that outlines what to do when a hurricane is
about to strike, yet when a hurricane comes roaring
in, the responsible officials just chuck the plan and
try winging it. Delaying and then winging it in the
face of a monstrous Cat 4/5 hurricane is never, ever a
good idea, especially for New Orleans. (See more
here.) Ironically, Nagin told CNN, I need buses,
man, when he had plenty sitting around unused before
the storm hit. Now they're flooded and useless.

But it's not like state and local officials could have
seen this coming. They have never had a hurricane
bearing down on them before and oh, wait, there was
Hurricane Ivan just last year. And after that dodged
bullet, Blanco and Nagin both acknowledged they needed
a better evacuation plan.

I would note that we've seen some pretty intense
disasters in other parts of the country, like planes
crashing into skyscrapers and subsequently collapsing,
earthquakes, tornadoes, blizzards, and yet somehow,
none of these disasters had the total breakdown of law
and order, civil society, etc. Jonah Goldberg's early
joke about a Mad-Max style post-apocalyptic tribal
anarchy may have been in poor taste, but it has turned
out to be nightmarishly prescient.

We failed you? No, oh brilliant creator of Exit to
Eden, you failed. You might not think of it this way,
but: Your leaders failed to upgrade the levees. You
elected a bunch of weepers and blame-shifters who lost
their head in a crisis.

Over the past decades, your elected officials have let
a criminal element incubate and grow until they ruled
the streets, instead of the forces of law and order.
In pop culture, a New Orleans thief is always a
charming rogue with a devilish smile. In reality,
they're a bunch of thugs.

If the number of residents who are looting thugs were
such a, tiny minority, we wouldn't have seen this
widespread, relentless anarchy. Madam, a noticeable
number of your neighbors saw this disaster as an
opportunity to smash a window and run away with a
television, an act that reveals much about the
inadequacies of the local school system, since that
thief won't be enjoying that television with any
electricity anytime soon.

I would also note that this is one hell of a police
force your local officials hired and that you and your
neighbors tolerated. 50 percent turned in their badges
during the crisis and quit. Your police superintendent
is conceding that some cops were looting. Just want to
refresh your memory --  four years ago, New York and
Washington, planes falling out of the sky, thousands
dead, no idea what the hell is coming next, and the
cops, among others, showed up to work.

To save you guys now, I  and a lot of other Americans
will pitch in. We are witnessing the biggest
mobilization of civilian and military rescue and
relief crews in history. But I have a sneaking
suspicion you're going to want the rest of us to pay
for the rebuilding of your city. (In the near future,
we're going to have to have a little chat about the
wisdom of building below sea level, directly next to
large bodies of water.) And if you're going to come to
the rest of us hat in hand, demanding the rest of us
clean up after your poor judgment, I'd appreciate a
little less "you failed us" and a little more "we've
learned our lesson."

Reply
Recommend  Message 5 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameMagicGizmo330Sent: 9/27/2005 12:06 PM
jayyr,
 
              Ok I would say lets cut the tax breaks for 5 years thats 780 billion X 5 and make a nation wide call for every working American to donate just $20.00 to the rebuilding of N.O. and garentee that the money will go to that cause and that cause only... then set up a bond program to back that up also any company or person that benifits from the rebuilding in any way should pay a small tax or a portion of the tax collected from income tax should go to the rebuilding... if the Mayor is correct and ha;f of N.O. does not returne they have big long term issues soooo I say set up places for people to stay in and around the area as soon as possible and give them specil low intrest loans to rebuild their homes.. and call apon that industry to help there....

Reply
Recommend  Message 6 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameJRowlettSent: 9/27/2005 1:41 PM
not sure i could go for that giz,
 
maybe split the tax break over five years instead of one?  i don't think the poor or avg american family could deal with the 5 years and it would hurt more than help in the long run.  how about we cut aid to other countries by 10 %,  and stop forgive other countries loans?
i will even double the money PBS gets if we can wipe out the NEA's.  the first one ensures all sides are heard and helps our kids,  the last i a matter of taste the goverment shouldn't fund.
what do you think?  finding common ground here?
 
jayyr

Reply
Recommend  Message 7 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameMagicGizmo330Sent: 9/27/2005 2:49 PM
Jayyr,
 
          O.K. brother I'm with ya on the10% cut in international aid ... I still think a national bond program is a good Idea and a $ 20.00 cash investment from every working american won't take anybody broke but will put us on the right path...we could sell it like either raise your tax or donate $20.00 it's your choice...low intrest loans for people and small business to rebuild should be enough to help the long term issue and get people back to N.O. we would have to losen the qualification prosess though dut to the situation on the ground ... while we are at it jayyr i'm thinking you may have a point the current tax structure is not working and may be unfair and for all practical purposes is not cost effective to run.... lets do away with income tax and go to a national sales tax. we will generate more revenue and it would be more fair for everybody concerned... whats your feeling on that...we could put this up for vote by the people in 06 and have it put in place by referendum....

Reply
Recommend  Message 8 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameArtLuvsOralSent: 9/27/2005 3:05 PM
Well, will let you two battle it out with your thoughts and ideas...................have fun!!

Reply
Recommend  Message 9 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameJRowlettSent: 9/27/2005 3:07 PM
ok giz,
 
lets see now.  i don't think we need a bond for this.  i don't want my son's son to be paying for all this.  and i have always been big on a flat tax or a national sales tax.  i can live with the sales tax as long as it doesn't include food or med's.  but we still have to protect the poorest of the poor.
and i can even agree with helping the ppl hurt by the storms rebuild as long as its done right.  makes no sence to fund new homes in a place where they will just get wiped out again.  for the next few years beach homes are not going to work.  and the area's have to do their part also.  the local goverments need to work to insure that since we are rebuilding then lets do away with the inner city there.  if we are going to rebuild then lets do it right this time.
 
jayyr

Reply
Recommend  Message 10 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameJRowlettSent: 9/27/2005 3:10 PM
aww art we are not debateing as much as trying to find common ground.  i liked what you posted from annie rice.  but i also think there is more than enough blame to go around here from the ppl in the area to the local and state and fed goverments to the president himself.
this time i wanted to talk about how to change it for the better and not just play who is to blame.  now if we can just get the real goverment to join the group and read the posts we might just get somewhere.  lol
 
jayyr

Reply
Recommend  Message 11 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameMagicGizmo330Sent: 9/27/2005 3:23 PM
jayyr,
 
   absolutely....the levys would have to be fixed right and updated ASAP... that is the  the first thing we do... the local economy will be booming when construction begins.. we wold have to put some constraints on the lumber and building industry and probably work with canada and controll the price of building materials some how and make shure canada don't under cut priceing so much our business are out of the market yet let them in enought that it keeps our people honest...Im with ya on the no slums policy and the poor will have help with the sales tax...No beach homes at all I say, if they want beach homes they are on their own...this would be tossing good mney after bad in my opinion...Jayyr  while we are at it we could offer tax breaks of companys that don't out sourse jobs and oppertunity and Tax those that do... let's level the playing field! No sales tax at all on food or meds is ok with me i would even like to see clothing in there as well but that may be a bit over the top...

Reply
Recommend  Message 12 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameMagicGizmo330Sent: 9/27/2005 3:28 PM
Jayyr...
 
  I think you and i made more progress in 1 hour than they did in 20 years.... we have some minor details to work through but we culd get past all that given the time... America has to reinvest in the gulf coast because it is a major oil hub...even my 13 year old sees that....

Reply
Recommend  Message 13 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamemoonbaby40Sent: 9/27/2005 3:38 PM
just passin thru...hiya fellas

Reply
Recommend  Message 14 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameArtLuvsOralSent: 9/27/2005 6:00 PM
Read the posting I did in the other NSS about FEMA......this may make your blood boil!!!!!
Art
As far as solutions, not sure we'll ever come up with a foolproof way......Even after what was learned in N.O. with Katrina, some parts of Texas and Lousiaina weren't prepared enough for what happened there......

Reply
Recommend  Message 15 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameJRowlettSent: 9/27/2005 6:07 PM
i agree with you art about part of this.  there is only so much you can do to get ready for these things.  and each one is so different you never know just what you will need. 
 
now about that other post......... see ya over there.
 
jayyr

Reply
Recommend  Message 16 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameJRowlettSent: 9/27/2005 6:30 PM
i agree we have to reinvest.  but i worry that no amout of leavy will withstand a cat 5 storm.  or that we will yet again pay the lowest bidder for the most importent things.
yes we need to rebuid.  and you have a bright kid there.  but lets talk about that one also.  having 25 %  of our refineries in one area is just not good in this day and age for so many reasons.  lets move some at least more inland.  it may cost a few cents a gallon more but they will be up and running.
 
jayyr

Reply
Recommend  Message 17 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameJRowlettSent: 9/27/2005 6:30 PM
hiya moon,  i see ya there passin through.
 
jayyr

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