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Reply
 Message 1 of 41 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamealaska0867  (Original Message)Sent: 11/18/2008 5:30 AM
with other peoples time & money.
 
An excellent essay by Thomas Sowell;  It's Priceless


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Reply
 Message 27 of 41 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamealaska0867Sent: 11/20/2008 3:45 AM
This is why socialism is evil: it employs evil means, coercion or taking the property of one person, to accomplish good ends, helping one's fellow man. Helping one's fellow man in need, by reaching into one's own pockets, is a laudable and praiseworthy goal. Doing the same through coercion and reaching into another's pockets has no redeeming features and is worthy of condemnation. ~ Walter Williams

Reply
 Message 28 of 41 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameHayekian  Sent: 11/20/2008 3:48 AM

Your Message 18 indicates support of fascist imperialism.  Was that your intent, JT?  Hayekian

No I am a social democrat.  JT

Social Democrat?  Is that where two wolves and a sheep democratically vote on what to have for dinner?  The sheep typically loses ...


Reply
 Message 29 of 41 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameTheJollyTrollSent: 11/20/2008 4:14 AM

This is why socialism is evil: it employs evil means, coercion or taking the property of one person, to accomplish good ends, helping one's fellow man. Helping one's fellow man in need, by reaching into one's own pockets, is a laudable and praiseworthy goal. Doing the same through coercion and reaching into another's pockets has no redeeming features and is worthy of condemnation. ~ Walter Williams

This I have to agree with. Having been in Germany during the reunification; one could tell what side you were on by just looking at the buildings and roads. I also had the opportunity to go to Albania right after the communist regime fell their and can tell you that type of socialism is undesirable.

However when comparing the US with Western Germany; I would say that the US in many ways is far more socialist. The difference is that corporations have taken the place of the state. Where it is most noticeable is in the social programming in which Americans spend far more time and money controlling the population; then in any other place in the Technological World. When one counts the police, teachers, social workers, prison guards and other population control workers; the US has far more people then even Red China. Forbes Magazine says that US business taxes are the highest in America then any where in the technological world. If one counts all the laws on the books, the US by far has the most comprehensive in the world. So who is really the socialist???

So in many ways I do agree with you that "Socialism" in of it's self is evil, but we disagree on whether the US or Europe is more or less socialist. It just depends on how one looks at the situation.


Reply
 Message 30 of 41 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamealaska0867Sent: 11/20/2008 4:17 AM
Oh, I agree that the US is very, very socialist.  The main difference, I believe, is we are taxing the bejeezus out of unborn people through inter-generational debt whereas Europe is taxing the bejeezus out of the living.
 
Both are reprehensible but Europes version is less so.

Reply
 Message 31 of 41 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameTheJollyTrollSent: 11/20/2008 4:39 AM
 
Oh, I agree that the US is very, very socialist.  The main difference, I believe, is we are taxing the bejeezus out of unborn people through inter-generational debt whereas Europe is taxing the bejeezus out of the living.
 
Both are reprehensible but Europes version is less so.
 
I wish that I could dissagree with you... but...     

Reply
 Message 32 of 41 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameTheJollyTrollSent: 11/20/2008 4:01 PM
Let me tell you isn't worried about the debt nor taxes. It is the foundations which until recently had access to 500 billion in capital of which they only paid 6% of the profit off of their vast wealth. Not mentioned in the quote below is that they fund both right and left wing philanthropy, in some cases the very same foundations. These foundations pay for jets, own homes, time shares a keep the founder's decedents in a life of luxury; all the while the rest of us have to flip the bill for the investment classes boo boo on the credit market.
 

 
“Many white-led social justice non-profits proclaim, in everything from their mission statements to their funding proposals, that they are committed to improving the social and economic conditions of the oppressed communities in which they operate. But�?the white leadership of the progressive philanthropy movement actually protects white wealth and undermines the work of oppressed communities of color�?They act as brokers between the capital and the oppressed people of color who were exploited to create it...

They simply help [the rich] manage their money- and assuage their guilt for having wealth accrued from the stolen and exploited labor of people of color�?More specifically, white people become more invested in protecting white wealth than in advancing oppressed people of color’s movements to reclaim and redistribute wealth.�?/I>
—Excerpted from Chapter 5, “The Filth on Philanthropy�?/P>


Reply
 Message 33 of 41 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameTheJollyTrollSent: 11/20/2008 4:24 PM
These very same foundations are the ones that endlessly send the young idealistic activists to help enlighten the ignorant JT with claims like the US is the better then Europe because America gets more medals then Liechtenstein. So that is why JT needs to give up 120,000$ a year income and serve these "Bright and Shiny" people in combating their evil nemesis... some bearded people way off yonder. While that statement might true  and the action they are requesting seems altruistic on the face of it; the intent is a LIE and their intentions are nefarious.
 
Furthermore the culture wars that they have funded have directly lead to the worst social conditions in the Technological World. It is so bad that if we were to count up all of our fellow Americans that have died a horrible untimely death because of preventable social illnesses like Drug Abuse, Homicide and STDs; then compared that with the rest of the technological world... we get numbers some where around 100,000,000 of our fellow Americans. That is one out of every four persons during my life time. The only group of people that I can rank with is...  

Reply
 Message 34 of 41 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameClearestWilhelmSent: 11/20/2008 4:48 PM
TheJollyTroll  #33
 It is so bad that if we were to count up all of our fellow Americans that have died a horrible untimely death because of preventable social illnesses like Drug Abuse, Homicide and STDs; then compared that with the rest of the technological world... we get numbers some where around 100,000,000 of our fellow Americans.
??????  Evidence please
 
Rank Order - Life expectancy at birth
 Rank  Country  Life Expectancy at Birth  Year
 1  Macau

 84.33

 2008(estimate)

 46  United States

 78.15

 "

 54  European Union

 77.32

 "

 55  Cuba

 77.27

 "

 72  Mexico

 75.84

 "

 223  Swaziland

 31.99

 "


Reply
 Message 35 of 41 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameTheJollyTrollSent: 11/20/2008 6:08 PM

#1   Andorra: 83.52 years  
#2   Macau: 82.27 years  
#3   Japan: 82.02 years  
#4   San Marino: 81.8 years  
#5   Singapore: 81.8 years  
#6   Hong Kong: 81.68 years  
#7   Sweden: 80.63 years  
#8   Australia: 80.62 years  
#9   Switzerland: 80.62 years  
#10   France: 80.59 years  
#11   Guernsey: 80.53 years  
#12   Iceland: 80.43 years  
#13   Canada: 80.34 years  
#14   Cayman Islands: 80.2 years  
#15   Italy: 79.94 years  
#16   Gibraltar: 79.93 years  
#17   Monaco: 79.82 years  
#18   Liechtenstein: 79.81 years  
#19   Spain: 79.78 years  
#20   Norway: 79.67 years  
#21   Israel: 79.59 years  
#22   Jersey: 79.51 years  
#23   Faroe Islands: 79.49 years  
#24   Greece: 79.38 years  
#25   Austria: 79.21 years  
#26   Virgin Islands: 79.2 years  
#27   Malta: 79.15 years  
#28   Netherlands: 79.11 years  
#29   Luxembourg: 79.03 years  
#30   Montserrat: 79 years  
#31   New Zealand: 78.96 years  
#32   Germany: 78.95 years  
#33   Belgium: 78.92 years  
#34   Saint Pierre and Miquelon: 78.76 years  
#35   Guam: 78.76 years  
#36   United Kingdom: 78.7 years  
#37   Finland: 78.66 years  
#38   Man, Isle of: 78.64 years  
#39   Jordan: 78.55 years  
#40   Puerto Rico: 78.54 years  
#41   Bosnia and Herzegovina: 78.17 years  
#42   Bermuda: 78.13 years  
#43   Saint Helena: 78.09 years  
#44   United States: 78 years

Essentially you are using "Bush Statistics" here, what you aren't saying is that former Communist nations like Albania and Hungry are included in the EU totals and they do not represent the Western European Social Democracies. Furthermore the CIA is changing the definition of how life expectancy is rated. What the CIA doesn't include is the prison inmates or homeless people's mortality rates, if they did the US would drop dramatically in their position on this list. I stand by my above statement.


Winston Churchill was asked why he sided with Joseph Stalin and his comment was that "If Adolph Hitler were to invade hell, then I would side with Satan". Furthermore his intentional bombing of German Civilian population in major cities were for the sole purpose of demoralizing then enemy. Can say as a person whom is descendent of the land that was under Nazi control that his reasoning was faulty. Furthermore Richard Feynman was asked why he developed the Atomic Bomb and his reply was that he was trying to defeat Hitler. These people prioritized and clearly everyone, even "German-Americans" like myself agree that the Third Reich was the number 1 # enemy at the time, the option of loosing was unthinkable and the war had to be won through hard calls.

Having said that, I have to openly admit that I prioritize. Right now the direct threat of those bearded people way over yonder is less dangerous then a bee sting, lightning strike or a shark attack. But when one juxtaposes that with a better then one in four chance of your children developing a social illness and dyeing prematurely a horrible death; just because the Paris Rockefellers want to impose the Culture Wars of a constant cycle of Catharsis / Gesedamy on their hapless subjects; OBL, Hugo Chavez and Ardigamad pale in comparison. Then when you add on the fact that I had people that were willing to help me move to a place that doesn't even have a scintilla of the risks to my off spring; these bright and shiny people start to look like...  


Reply
 Message 36 of 41 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameTheJollyTrollSent: 11/20/2008 6:39 PM
 

It is interesting to note that once a post a website to a "Radical" book, the very next web site is from the CIA. Honestly there is a off possibility that I had learned of this book from people that don't have the "Bright and Shiny" people's best interest and they may or may not be a concern to certain government agencies. That really isn't my concern on why they would go through all that bother, I don't know, maybe they see me as a potential asset.

But right now I have Adolph Hitler breathing down my neck and telling me to send my children to the showers. Sounds like the government has a problem and so do I. Now just how do we resolve our problems in a mutually beneficial manner. If we can not find some common ground and you take me for granted, then don't be suprized if some else does.


Reply
 Message 37 of 41 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameClearestWilhelmSent: 11/20/2008 11:23 PM
TheJollyTroll 
I still see that you have failed to answer my #34
TJT  #35
Essentially you are using "Bush Statistics" here,
On the contrary - you are the one comparing apples and oranges.  If you are going to include the likes of Andorra why not also include Forest Hills, NY?  The European Union is comparable in population to the US whether you like it or not. The Berlin Wall came down 19 years ago.  You also failed to mention that Denmark and Ireland have lower life expectancies than the US. 
 
The rest of #35 + #36
???????
What is that all about?

Reply
 Message 38 of 41 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameTheJollyTrollSent: 11/21/2008 12:04 AM
On the contrary - you are the one comparing apples and oranges.  If you are going to include the likes of Andorra why not also include Forest Hills, NY?  The European Union is comparable in population to the US whether you like it or not. The Berlin Wall came down 19 years ago.
 
When one adds former Eastern Bloc nations like Hungary, Romania and Poland which only recently reformed Communist nations; then the US clearly has the advantage. If one is making the claim that in the old polemic of Capitalism and Communism "people live longer in Western Capitalist nations"; then certainly that claim is true. So the average advantage leans towards a "Free market" economies. I do not have any problem with that comment.
 
The confusion is based on not understanding the original objects in the discussion that were Social democracy nations (Germany, Switzerland and New Zealand) vs. Corporate republic (the US) and when one compares the two forms of government; clearly after 50 years of development, the Social Democracies come out ahead at least in life span.
 
You also failed to mention that Denmark and Ireland have lower life expectancies than the US.
Something is... well... in Denmark and I am not really certain what it is; you got me on that one.
 
As for Ireland it is by far economically closest to the US in the EU and poster child for Steven Forbes' Corporate Republic. But don't take my word on it, you can read his own comments...

Fact Comment

Powerful Peace Weapon: Free-Market Prosperity
 
December 24, 2007
Steve Forbes
Forbes Asia Magazine

Middle East peacemakers should take a cue from what's been happening in Northern Ireland. The dispute there between Protestants and Catholics has been bloody and has lasted for more than three centuries. Yet there now seems to be real progress toward peace. Why? Not because diplomats suddenly became more able but because of the profound changes to the south, in the Republic of Ireland, which for centuries had been one of the poorest economies in western Europe.

Things started to change dramatically in the 1970s. Dublin aggressively courted foreign investment, using tax cuts and tax holidays as bait. Other tax and regulatory changes were made. Result: Ireland today is the most vigorous economy in western Europe. Its per capita income is now larger than that of Britain, France or Germany. The great boom in Ireland did not go unnoticed in the North, and in fact that region has benefited greatly from the Republic's prosperity. A vigorous, new middle class is rising in all of Ireland. As people become more prosperous they tend to focus on bettering their lives more than on blowing up their neighbors.

One of the things our diplomats should be pressuring Mideast countries on is economic reform. That does not mean the IMF, whose economic prescriptions of devaluation and higher taxes are always toxic. Instead, we should be firmly advocating genuine changes that will bring about prosperity. One would be a Hong Kong-like flat tax. Another would be currency boards, such as Estonia's, or a variation of one, such as Latvia's, which have stabilized the once inflation-prone currencies of those two countries. More reforms could be taken from the World Bank publication Doing Business, which surveys 178 economies on everything from the ease of setting up legal businesses to enforcing contracts. It's no surprise that most Mideast countries (as well as African ones) are economic laggards. One happy exception is Egypt, which seems to be making real progress in instituting pro-growth policies. A vibrant middle class, long term, is the key to genuine and lasting peace.


 
So Ireland only proves my point that Corporate Republics have shorter life spans and Denmark is admittedly the exception.

Reply
 Message 39 of 41 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameTheJollyTrollSent: 11/21/2008 12:44 AM
The rest of #35 + #36
???????
What is that all about?

That is NOT to say that you are part of organization or group that is trying to repress decent in America, it is just odd when I mentioned a book that contradicts our "Approved" view of American politic; the very next retort was from a CIA web site.

I wasn't necessarily replying to you as a individual, however for the last eight years I have been experienced in "Bush Tactician" re-education. What happens is people that disagree with the status quo, meaning either end of the "Foundation" left / right preapproved forms of diolog are essentially badgered to death with Chauvinistic / Fallacious claims of American superiority on the internet and in their personal lives. The tactic resembles a neo form of the "Potential Troublemaker" program of the J. Edgar Hoover  FBI. NOW those operations are out sourced to civic, religious and ideological groups... mostly funded by the Foundation. Believe me they do this to allot of people and "We Talk". So consequently many individuals involved in the resistance read my posts. Those comments were geared for them and any people with in the system whom disagree with the Tactics; but have families to feed.

Please disregard if it doesn't apply to you.


Reply
 Message 40 of 41 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameTheJollyTrollSent: 11/21/2008 12:58 AM

I do not know what gives with these statistics, however in this particular definition both Ireland and Denmark have higher life spans.

I am not accusing you but obviously some one is "Adjusting" statistics.


http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_lif_exp_at_bir_yea_tot_pop-expectancy-birth-years-total-population

Health Statistics > Life expectancy at birth, years > Total population (most recent) by country

#1  

Japan: 82 
#2   Monaco: 81 
#3   Andorra: 81 
#4   Switzerland: 81 
#5   Australia: 81 
#6   San Marino: 81 
#7   Italy: 81 
#8   Sweden: 81 
#9   Spain: 80 
#10   France: 80 
#11   Canada: 80 
#12   Iceland: 80 
#13   Singapore: 80 
#14   Israel: 80 
#15   Malta: 79 
#16   Austria: 79 
#17   Belgium: 79 
#18   Norway: 79 
#19   Finland: 79 
#20   Luxembourg: 79 
#21   Germany: 79 
#22   Netherlands: 79 
#23   Greece: 79 
#24   United Kingdom: 79 
#25   New Zealand: 79 
#26   Cyprus: 78 
#27   Ireland: 78 
#28   Kuwait: 77 
#29   Slovenia: 77 
#30   Chile: 77 
#31   Denmark: 77 
#32   Costa Rica: 77 
#33   Portugal: 77 
#34   Cuba: 77 
#35   United States: 77 
#36   Korea, South: 76 
#37   Poland: 75 
#38   Czech Republic: 75 
#39   Barbados: 75 
#40   Croatia:

75 


Reply
 Message 41 of 41 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameTheJollyTrollSent: 11/21/2008 1:11 AM
 
Here is the problem, just like in the old failed Soviet Union; the US government is now forced to falsify data just to justify it's existence. But do not believe me, ask the most credible people on the planet. 
 
 
They are not focused on the economic nor social falsification, but it clearly demonstrates a pattern of deception from the current government. It is really telling you something when given the most skewed statistics, the US trails badly from the rest of the technological world.
 
I have experienced with a multitude of other statistics. THE most shameful act of the Bush Administration trying to lie about the percentages of Rape (Forcible Anal, Vaginal or Oral Penetration) as apposed to other nation's sexual assault (anything that violates the dignity of... including tapping some one on the bottom). Bushies made the Bald Faced claim that woman are just as safe in the US as the rest of the technological world. You know if they lie about something like that, they will lie about everything.

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