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General : Lessons from the attack on Mumbai?
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 Message 1 of 70 in Discussion 
From: Noserose  (Original Message)Sent: 11/28/2008 8:58 PM

(CNN) -- Authorities were still fighting at least one gunmen at Mumbai's Taj Mahal Hotel, but other standoffs around the city, including ones at the Oberoi Hotel and a Jewish center, appeared at or near an end Friday.

Officials said at least 160 people have been killed in the violence and more than 300 injured.

But even with most of the fighting quelled after two days of gun battles, many questions remain. The following is what is known about the attacks:

Gunmen arrived by boats at the Mumbai waterfront near the Gateway of India monument on Wednesday night, police said. The gunmen hijacked cars, including a police van, and split into at least three groups to carry out the attacks, according to police.

One group headed toward the Cafe Leopold, a popular hangout for Western tourists, firing indiscriminately at passers-by on the street. The group then opened fire and lobbed grenades at the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus railway station, authorities said.

As police rushed to the scene of the attacks, gunmen attacked the Cama Hospital for women and infants. Several people were killed at the hospital, and a standoff there lasted until Thursday morning.
Two other groups attacked the Oberoi and Taj Mahal hotels, taking hostages there, police said. Police were reporting Friday that the standoff at the Oberoi was over and that the siege at the Chabad House was near an end.

 Gunmen took hostages at the Chabad House, where several Jewish families live, police said.

Police said gunmen fired indiscriminately from the Chabad House. Stray bullets killed a couple in their home and a 16-year-old boy who stepped outside, police said.

he Chabad-Lubavitch International group said Rabbi Gavriel Noach Holtzberg, 29, made a phone call to the Israeli Consulate to report gunmen in the house. "In the middle of the conversation the line went dead," the organization said. His wife, Rivka, 28, was also killed.

At the hotels, hostages or people who were trapped exited at various times Thursday and Friday. Commandos entered both hotels, trying to flush out militants and rescue others.
Early Friday, an Indian general told reporters that two or three gunmen, one of whom was wounded, remained inside the Taj hotel.

An undetermined number of nonmilitants remained inside the Taj on Friday morning, National Security Guards Director-General J.K. Dutt said. "There are some of them inside the rooms, and they are not prepared to open the doors," he said.

Fire brigades battled blazes at both hotels. By early Friday, it appeared what had been a major fire at the Oberoi had been extinguished.

By Friday night, 160 had been killed in the attacks, including at least 15 foreigner nationals, authorities said. These included three Germans, an Italian, an Australian and one Chinese among the at least 15 foreigners killed -- with a further 327 injured. . More than 300 people were wounded, including seven Britons, three Americans and two Australians.

The killed Americans have been identified as Alan Scherr, 58, and his daughter Naomi, 13, from Virginia died at the Oberoi. They were visiting India with a meditation group

Also among the dead were 16 police officers, two commandos and the chief of the Mumbai police anti-terror squad.
CNN-IBN, quoted police sources as saying there were about 26 gunmen.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/11/28/mumbai.investigation/index.html

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

{ There can be little doubt that the terrorists have succeeded in their plans and objectives. They have killed at least 160 people and terrified millions in the old colonial city of Bombay, India and informed the world of a new terrorist tactic....the invasion of a city. For those of us in the western world we are are left with the uneasy question. "When will it be our turn?"

Coming in at night by inflatable raft from a ship at sea the well trained and well equipped terrorists spread out and attacked the city from at least ten places. Murdering everybody in their path and terrifying the city for at least 48 hours.

How does one protect oneself from such an attack? Apparently the police responded quickly and with considerable bravery but were not as well armed or trained as the terrorists and were slaughtered wherever they met. At one time several of the attackers were driving around in a police vehicle shooting people on the streets as they drove by.

By the time the Indian military and specially trained anti-terrorist forces arrived on the scene over a hundred people were already dead and over two hundred injured. Over the next few day as the attacked area's are searched many more bodies are likely to be found.

If there is any lesson here for us it is that experts are always planning for the last war rather than future wars. The attacks of 9/11 were a one time shot and the changes made around the world make another such attack unlikely. The terrorists always seem a step ahead and find weaknesses in the protective shell we place around ourselves. We will now plan around this attack to see it can't happen here and while we are doing that they will be plotting new ways of attack that we haven't even thought about. We will be hearing from them again......but not in the way we think.

At the moment these savages that we think of as living in the middle ages or living in caves are out-thinking us. We have to beat them in the brain war before we can on the battlefield.

What do you think?}



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 Message 56 of 70 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname™Curm�?/nobr>Sent: 11/30/2008 5:51 PM
NR,
 
Real innocent people are dying and you offer cartoon stories!
 
I don't consider it a 'cartoon story.
 
 
First, regardless of political philosophy, these men had gone to the trouble of insuring they had at least one additional option to standing by and dying with their family.
 
Second, politics aside, the mentality to survive is definitely stronger in some of us than in others.
 
Third, those unable to recognize the reality of a large portion of the world's population recognizes NOTHING except physical power, by definition, volunteer to become victims, while those of us who do recognize this permanent fact survive and rescue others.
 
I totally understand why you are unable to see beneath the surface story.
 
Curm

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 Message 57 of 70 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamealaska0867Sent: 12/1/2008 12:16 AM
Cartoons! Real innocent people are dying and you offer cartoon stories! ~ NoseRose
 
Well, you started it.   Message 47

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 Message 58 of 70 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameRansomed2Sent: 12/1/2008 12:35 AM
to me there are several lessons here. # 1 I am begining to believe that an armed populaiton is safer than an unarmed one. I just watched he news and apparently after the attack on the cafe the murderers strolled down the street firing at anyone they saw- they strolled past many shops etc. If thsoe shop keepers had weapons under their counters the outcome could have been very different.
 Also the Indian armed forces did nto seem as well equipped as ours or other nations. From the little I saw they did not seem to have a lot of protective gear on. They need more.
 
Lastly the murdered they captured seems to be a Pakastani person with a 4th grade education . A person like that is quite ignorant . It seems to me to be imperative to educate the uneducated and to beam free lessons in all subjects including freedom and democracy into these nations without pause. To infiltrate the nations with pamphlets and to try to send teachers in. We have to reach the minds  and hearts of the people.
 
The evil man is capabable of seems to be limitless. The only hope for human beings is a changed heart - to replace the heart of stone with a heart of flesh to fill the person with Jesus and with the Holy Spirit. That is done one person @ a time with love and compassion and help and not by force.

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 Message 59 of 70 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameTheJollyTrollSent: 12/1/2008 4:01 AM

Technically speaking NOT a Pakistani group nor is it an “Al Qaeda splinter. This is very clearly a Taliban group and probably revolves around the policies towards the Taliban allies in Northern Pakistani territory. This is a feint.


Lashkar-e-Taiba (Urdu: لشكرِ طيبه laškar-ĕ �?/SPAN>aiyyiba; literally Army of the Good, commonly translated as Army of the Righteous; also transliterated as Lashkar-i-Tayyaba, Lashkar-e-Tayyaba, Lashkar-e-Tayyiba, Lashkar-i-Taiba, or LeT) is one of the largest and most active terrorist organizations in South Asia.<o:p></o:p>

It was founded by Hafiz Muhammad Saeed in the Kunar province of Afghanistan, and is currently based near Lahore, Pakistan operating several militant training camps in Pakistan-administered Kashmir. Lashkar-e-Taiba members have carried out major attacks against India and its primary objective is to end Indian rule in Kashmir. Some breakaway Lashkar members have also been accused of carrying out attacks in <st1:country-region w:st="on">Pakistan</st1:country-region>, particularly in Karachi, to mark its opposition to the policies of President Pervez Musharraf. The organization is banned as a terrorist organization by India, Pakistan, the United States, the United Kingdom, the European Union, Russia and Australia. According to some sources, Laskar-e-Taiba renamed itself to Jama'at-ud-Da'wah (JUD) in January 2002 to escape the ban imposed by the Pakistani government. <o:p></o:p>


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 Message 60 of 70 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameTheJollyTrollSent: 12/1/2008 4:12 AM
Objective
 

The LeT's professed ideology goes beyond merely challenging India's sovereignty over the State of Jammu and Kashmir. The Lashkar's agenda, as outlined in a pamphlet titled "Why are we waging jihad", includes the restoration of Islamic rule over all parts of South Asia, Russia and even China. Further, the outfit is based on a sort of Islamist fundamentalism preached by its mentor, the JuD. It seeks to bring about a union of all Muslim majority regions in countries that surround Pakistan. In its history the organisation has shown scant respect for human life and has carried out terrorist activities of great brutality. Many of its objectives are inspired by the Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) of Pakistan. With the American presence and military pressure in Afghanistan, the ISI lost its protege organisation- The Taliban's strategic utility. Organisations like the LeT have been used to absorb the resilient remnants of The Taliban and Al Qaeda operatives in the region and to salvage the strategic objective of using the tool of terror for state purpose, particularly against neighbouring India, by the Pakistani state.

The outfit had claimed that it had assisted the Taliban militia and Osama bin Laden's Al-Qaeda network in Afghanistan during November and December 2002 in their fight against the US-aided Northern Alliance.


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 Message 61 of 70 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameTheJollyTrollSent: 12/1/2008 4:15 AM
It is NOT that this is a new style of operation for them, it is just the rest of the world hasn't been looking where they are at.
 
From just the looks, it is SOP for them; except that the rest of the world is looking. 

Reply
 Message 62 of 70 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameKnightly-Sent: 12/1/2008 9:40 AM

<st1:place><st1:City>ISLAMABAD</st1:City>, <st1:country-region>Pakistan</st1:country-region></st1:place>—Preliminary signs emerging from <st1:country-region><st1:place>India</st1:place></st1:country-region>’s power center, <st1:City><st1:place>New Delhi</st1:place></st1:City>, paint a picture of an unstable situation. Security is already compromised. But a bigger story is taking place in <st1:City><st1:place>New Delhi</st1:place></st1:City>, not Mumbai. There are disturbing signs that <st1:country-region><st1:place>India</st1:place></st1:country-region>, a nuclear-armed nation of a billion people, is witnessing a ‘soft coup�?attempt involving secular rightwing ideologues and Hindu nationalists. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

Exploiting the fears of a traumatized nation and a government caught sleeping at the wheel, a core group of rightwing ideologues within <st1:country-region><st1:place>India</st1:place></st1:country-region>’s military, intelligence and political elite are trying to overthrow Manmohan Singh’s government. The plan apparently is to help the rise of rightwing elements in power and firmly push <st1:country-region><st1:place>India</st1:place></st1:country-region> in a confrontation with <st1:country-region><st1:place>Pakistan</st1:place></st1:country-region> and some other countries in the region.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

The objective of this core group is to see <st1:country-region><st1:place>India</st1:place></st1:country-region> emerge as a superpower closely allied with the <st1:country-region><st1:place>United States</st1:place></st1:country-region>.  They are excited about American plans for <st1:country-region><st1:place>India</st1:place></st1:country-region> as a regional policeman and have no problem in confronting <st1:country-region><st1:place>China</st1:place></st1:country-region> and <st1:country-region><st1:place>Pakistan</st1:place></st1:country-region> to achieve this status. They think time is slipping and they don’t want a hesitant political leadership in their way.  Already the instability in the wake of Mumbai attacks is being exploited to start a war with <st1:country-region><st1:place>Pakistan</st1:place></st1:country-region>.  The fact that this will also help <st1:country-region><st1:place>U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region> military that is facing a tough time in <st1:country-region><st1:place>Afghanistan</st1:place></st1:country-region> appears to be more than just a coincidence.

http://www.ahmedquraishi.com/latest_col.php?id=78<o:p></o:p>


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The number of members that recommended this message. 0 recommendations  Message 63 of 70 in Discussion 
Sent: 12/1/2008 9:42 AM
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The number of members that recommended this message. 0 recommendations  Message 64 of 70 in Discussion 
Sent: 12/1/2008 9:45 AM
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 Message 65 of 70 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname_Driver_7Sent: 12/1/2008 9:48 AM
You have to delete that, Knightly.

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 Message 66 of 70 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname_Driver_7Sent: 12/1/2008 9:51 AM
You're attempting to post protected / copyright material, Knightly,
 
Dump it!

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 Message 67 of 70 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname_Driver_7Sent: 12/1/2008 9:54 AM
Not like anyone's going to read it.

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 Message 68 of 70 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamecathymv722Sent: 12/1/2008 1:51 PM
more lessons:
 

Liberal media still has trouble figuring out Islamic religious bigots

Melanie Phillips:

...

Among commentators, moreover, there has been no small amount of confusion.

Were these terrorists motivated by the grievance between Muslims and Hindus over Kashmir, or was this a broader attack by Al Qaeda?

If British and American tourists were singled out over Iraq - which many assume is the motive for such attacks - why were Indians targeted in the Victoria railway station?

And why was an obscure Jewish outreach centre marked for slaughter?

Such perceptions and questions suggest that, even now, Western commentators still don't grasp what the free world is facing. This was not merely a distant horror.

We should pay the closest possible attention to what happened in Mumbai because something on this scale could well happen here.

But because we don't understand what we are actually up against, we are not doing nearly enough to prevent this - or something even worse - occurring on British soil; and if it were to happen here, we would be unable to cope.

The Mumbai atrocities show very clearly what too many in Britain obdurately deny - that a war is being waged against civilisation.

It is both global and local. It is not 'our' fault; it has nothing to do with Muslim poverty, oppression or discrimination.

The Islamic fundamentalist fanatics use specific grievances - Kashmir, Iraq, Palestine, Chechnya - merely as recruiting sergeants for their worldwide holy war against all 'unbelievers'.

The Mumbai attackers targeted British, American and Indian citizens simply because they wanted to kill as many British, American and Indian 'unbelievers' as possible.

Where they found Muslims, they spared them.

They also singled out for slaughter the occupants of the Chabad House, a pious Jewish outreach organisation with no Israeli or political agenda - underscoring the point that at the core of the Islamists' hatred of Israel festers their hatred of the Jews.

This was not, as is so often described, 'mindless violence'.

On the contrary, the terrorists precisely calibrated both their choice of targets and the way in which they attacked them. This tells us many things.

India was chosen in order to further two aims. First was to foment greater tension between India and Pakistan.

No less important was the wish to destroy the ever more vital strategic alliance between India and the West in common defence against the Islamist onslaught.

That was why British and American visitors in those two grand hotels were singled out.

And that was why Mumbai itself was chosen - as the symbol of India's burgeoning commerce and prosperity and its links with the West.

The manner of these attacks also carried a message.

Many hostages were taken, but no attempt was made to use them to demand redress of any grievances. They were simply killed.

That made a statement that the terrorists' agenda is non-negotiable.

The attacks demonstrated, above all, the reach of the perpetrators and the impotence of their designated victims.

Those who believe that Islamist terror can be halted by addressing grievances around the world are profoundly mistaken.

 

see ya

cathy


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 Message 69 of 70 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameClearestWilhelmSent: 12/1/2008 4:36 PM
It's all in the name Mumbai
1.Dec.08
After the tragic attacks on Bombay, it might seem trivial to complain that most of the foreign media call the city Mumbai. That is, after all, its official name. But though we may think we're being right-on by dropping the old Portugese title, many Indians would disagree. As Bombay's best contemporary chronicler, the Gujurati writer Suketu Mehta, points out, the Hindu-supremacist Maharashtra state government changed the name as part of its campaign to make Bombay a Hindu, or more specifically, Maharashtran city: a complete denial of its true identity as India's most multicultural (and also most Westernised) place. That sort of sectarianism, from the Muslim side, almost certainly underlies last week's horror. So names are important; and I, for one, will be sticking with Mehta, with my Indian friends, and with Bombay.

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 Message 70 of 70 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameTheJollyTrollSent: 12/1/2008 5:16 PM

Usually we sharply disagree on most issues, but I have to say that I agree with that article on that point.

This is a issue we have to win. Let us not make this a polemic, but a tacit understanding between all parties on all sides... IF, THEN you "Handle" the situation as you deem fit. That can be achieved by detaching it from the trivial pursuit issues like Gay Marriage. So IF a liberal isn't part of this agreement, THEN they can not lead.


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