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| | From: Arnie-113 (Original Message) | Sent: 3/29/2007 12:11 PM |
Flash I think this article confirms the truth of my assertions regarding the DDR East Germany did face up to its Nazi pastThe west's demonisation of communism has led to a distortion of history, says Bruni de la Motte Thursday March 29, 2007 The Guardian
It is a truism that history is invariably written by the victors, but that shouldn't stop individuals like me protesting when the truth is so clearly distorted. I read too often recently about how the communists in eastern Europe repressed knowledge of the iniquities of Hitler and Nazism. Recent Guardian articles have stated: "... in communist East Germany which did little to expose its Nazi past" (Hitler's honour lives on in G8 summit town, March 12); and "Due to the communist regime's suppression of history and its encouragement of anti-semitism, few Poles were aware ..." (I'm no hero, says woman who saved 2,500 ghetto children, March 15). language=javascript type=text/javascript>
</SCRIPT> I was born and grew up in the German Democratic Republic. Our schoolbooks dealt extensively with the Nazi period and what it did to the German nation and most of Europe. During the course of their schooling, all pupils were taken at least once to a concentration camp, where a former inmate would explain in graphic detail what took place. All concentration camps in the former GDR were maintained as commemorative places, "so that no one should forget". The government itself included a good proportion of those, including Jews, who had been forced to flee Hitler fascism or who had been interred. The allies' post-war Potsdam agreement laid down the vital need to prosecute Nazi war criminals and de-Nazify the country. In the east, thousands of new teachers had to be found overnight, as those tainted by the Nazi ideology were not suitable to teach a new postwar generation, and this resulted in schools having under-trained and inadequate teaching staff for some years; all lawyers were replaced too. Although the Nuremberg trials set the scene with the trial and convicion of the 24 top leaders, after the onset of the cold war the west did not carry through the spirit of Potsdam. In West Germany thousands of leading Nazi army officers, judges who had sent Jews and leftists to their deaths, doctors who'd experimented on concentration camp victims, politicians and others, were left unscathed and continued in their professions. They received generous pensions on retirement, whereas those who opposed the Nazis and had been imprisoned or in concentration camps received no pensions for these periods as "they hadn't paid their contributions". In the GDR the "victims of fascism" received extra pensions and other privileges in recognition of their suffering. General Bastian, who later became a Green MP in the Bundestag, was forced out of the army after revealing that Nazi ideology was rife in the postwar Bundeswehr. In East Germany, on the other hand, all top Nazis were put on trial or fled to the west before they could be caught; and the government produced its famous Brown Book, with a list of leading Nazis who were still "on the run". Little is said about the fact that Reinhard Gehlen, Hitler's chief of intelligence, became the head of West German counter-espionage after the war, or that Hans Globke, a leading Nazi lawyer, became a top minister in Adenauer's postwar government. The crimes of the communist regimes are well known, but the demonisation of communism and the distortion of history have surely more to do with the vitality of the utopian ideas which communism still represents, rather than an attempt to report historical truths? · [email protected] |
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ARNIE, AS ONE WHO HAS MOTORED 800,000 MILES IN THE LAST 20 YEARS IN THE UK, THERE IS A GENERALISED NICKNAME FOR THE BIRMINGHAM/STAFFORD BELT AS SUCH, ACCORDING TO THE BUILDING SOCIETY BLURB, AS MIDSHIRES. BUT IT IS NOT OFFICIAL. READ YOUR TRUTHSEEKER, ESPECIALLY OPERATION TRIPHAMMER. NOW, THEIR VIEWPOINT APPEARS TO BE THEY ARE ANTI-COMMUNIST, AND BLAME THE ALLIES, ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO TURNED THE BLIND EYE, FOR ALLOWING SUCCESS TO STALIN. WHICH IS VERY MUCH MINE. THEREB IS A FIGURE BANDIED ABOUT OF 3 MILLION GERMANS KILLED RESPECTIVELY IN CZECHOSLOVAKIA AND POLAND BY THE LOCALS, THESE BEING CIVILIAN SETTLERS. WHAT'S YOUR OPINION? |
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Flash I've heard of the Midshire Building Society, but I cannot believe that such a generalisation could be the centre of a story such as the murder of prisoners. I also think that we would have heard of it. We had two POW camps near us the one in Wakefield at Hadfield Hall was for officers. and I can remember them walking around Wakefield without escort I think that this was just after the war. The other Camp was at Hebdon Bridge on the moors they were all army prisoners and used to work on the local farms. Their is a POW association in Hebdon consisting of POWs who married English Girls. It might be a bit thin on the ground now. SEE:http://www.wartimememories.co.uk/pow/pow.html I know there were two revolts by prisoners one was in Wales, losely the subject of a film and the other was in Devises were the SS and Submariners prisoners intended to breakout and capture the US army Logistics base just down the road and march on London. The Plan was leaked by a prisoner who had been saved from a Kangaroo court and execution by the SS prisoners. The Prisoners armed themselves and prepared to take on the Guards who were a Polish second line unit. However when they made their move they found they were confronted by the 10th Lancashire Parachute Battalion, who literally smashed then into the ground. No germans were killed at this stage but two or three were court martialed and executed. The Poles and Czechs drove out the germans out of they german enclaves in their country. The Czechs of course was very bitter about the Sudaten Germans. It was their agitation in 1939 Gave reason for Hitler to invade. I'm sure that some old scores were settled and some were murdered. 10 million were displaced in mid winter and during this displacement trek 2 million are thought to have died. Of course the Poles and Czechs considered they got what they deserved. Arnie |
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Presumably the Germans involved in the planned breakout from Devizes were executed by firing squad ? WHY?? |
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Flash Could we have been melting German POWS down and making them into soap? Let's face our government put out a similar story in WW1 about the German Army sending their dead home to render them down for soap. Some of the issue 'Dhobi' might have come from such a source! Mark The Prisoners from Devizes were hung their Court Martial was held at the Interogation centre in London. I think the extrat explains why they ended up in Perthshire There was in December 1944 an audacious plan hatched by Waffen SS officers and some Fallschirmjäger troops to break out of their camp in Devizes, Wiltshire and seize weapons, including tanks from a local army depot and march on London, all this was to coincide with the Ardennes offensive which was taking place in Europe. The Ardennes Offensive lifted the moral of many German prisoners as they though this would lead to their liberation but they were very much mistaken. Although the plan sounds ludicrous it caused the British some concern and not unfoundedly as there were around 250,000 prisoners in Britain (the equivalent of 48 divisions) at that time and the British and American forces stationed in Britain numbered considerably less as they were fighting in Europe and the Far East. The plan was fortunately discovered and the perpetrators were dealt with, being sent to Comrie Camp in Perthshire (Camp 21) in the wilds of Scotland which housed hard-line line Nazis (mainly young Waffen SS, Fallschirmjäger and U-boat crew prisoners) out of the way of other moderate prisoners. This did lead to one very unfortunate incident where Feldwebel Wolfgang Rosterg-a known anti-Nazi was sent by mistake. He was believed to have informed of the plot to march on London and after a severe beating was hanged in the latrine. Five prisoners were caught, tried and hanged in Pentonville Prison in North London on 6th October 1946. Another prisoner- Unteroffizer Gerhard Rettig was beaten to death for his open criticism of the plan and was beaten to death after being chased round the camp and two other prisoners were executed in November 1946 in Pentonville Prison. Arnie |
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Mark/ Pete Here is another intresting web site devoted to German and Italian POWs held in UK Arnie |
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I'll follow that up in Google. Lengthy subject, but my word! Would have got our eye off the ball. Mentioned to Mark earlier, I was training at Comrie (Cultybraggan) camp 1966, got the afternoon off for the World Cup. Silver nissen huts. Coal stoves. Under the auspices of the Cameronians in those days. I think they were in the process of being disbanded. Peter |
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Flash, that plot you mention above reminds me of a film made about 35 yrs ago where the German prisoners riot and get hit with water cannon. Can't remember what it's called |
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Funk, Sorry some very long posts in this thread, can't recall a plot I'de be interested to know if we ever used water cannon. Certainly unlike the European continental police forces, we never used them against the '60's rent a mobs. Otherwise our highly respected (now minister) Jack Straw would have got a soaking. As a return for the Police he helped injure.. Peter |
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There is great errow here. There are two different rules of law that apply they can not be co-mingled. The first set are laws or tready aggrements during a time of declaried war between nation. The second is law during a time of non declaried war or peace. They are different. Any deaths of German military or cilivans after the the surrender falls on the shoulders of those that have taken their wellfare, prisons or not, into the cares. There is no exceptible reason for those responible for their care to allow anything and for any reason befall these persons. If the do they should be shot. Do you know that there was no such law as "crimes aganist humanity" before the end of WWII. That was a British idea that was created post WWII but back dated to pre WWII. So at the time these "crimes against humanity/cilivans" were commited they were not crimes at all. They were not illegal when commited, but OK. Only a vile people would declare now something illegal and backdate that to a time when it was not. See the creation of Americas "Grandfather clause". Which does not allow this to be done. You may, at this point foward not do this, but the past is to be forgiven for all reasons. sunny |
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Sunny Having studied Jurisprudence, the philosophy of law, I agree. Retrospective legislation is a breach of convention. A lot of it was done, also to avoid paying compensation. See Burmah Oil. Peter |
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Arnie # 13. It is the right and the obligation of all militay POWs to excape. There is to be no retrabution, other than solitary confinment, for these failed attemps. sunny |
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Bloody was when we were caught absent from school. |
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