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| | From:  Arnie-113 (Original Message) | Sent: 3/19/2007 6:30 PM |
Death on the way to Basra John Dugdale
Monday March 19, 2007
Guardian On March 21 2003, ITN reporter Terry Lloyd - a so-called "unilateral" correspondent, rather than one "embedded" with US or British troops - was approaching Basra with his cameramen Daniel Demoustier and Fred Nerac and his translator Hussein Osman in two vehicles marked "TV". They wanted to film British troops arriving. When they encountered Iraqi soldiers, they did a u-turn and drove away. But an Iraqi vehicle drove alongside the car carrying Lloyd and Demoustier. Both the Iraqis and Americans at the side of the road opened fire, with the Iraqis hitting Lloyd in the back. Demoustier (who was the only one of the four to survive the incident) escaped into a civilian minibus, which was fired on by the Americans; he got out and walked towards them, hands up, and was shot at again. Another civilian minibus arrived to take the wounded to hospital. Lloyd was helped into it, but when it set off for Basra the Americans fired on it, hitting Lloyd fatally as he lay in the back of the minibus. An inquest took place in Oxfordshire in October, but the US authorities refused to allow their soldiers to attend or be named. A US video of the aftermath of the attack was shown, but a forensic expert estimated 15 minutes could have been cut from it. Deputy coroner Andrew Walker handed down a verdict of unlawful killing, saying the American soldiers were in breach of the Geneva convention in shooting at a civilian vehicle moving away. He said he would write to the attorney general and the DPP to see if "steps can be taken to bring the perpetrators to justice". Lloyd's family have accused the US military of a cover-up. His widow Lynn has called the American soldiers "trigger-happy cowboys", and his daughter Chelsey said "the killing of my father would seem to amount to murder". |
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Flash I don't follow #26 If you mean what I think mean If you only drop one bomb from one aircraft on your own troops that could probably be excused. However in Normandy apart from the US army, the Poles, suffered an attack by the USAAF so did the British and Canadians. So it would seem if you drop a lot of bombs in the wrong place you will inevitably hit more of your own men. Is that what you mean. I think you will find that the most sorties flown over Normandy was flown by RAF seconTactical Air Force and Bomber Command both RAF orginisations arnie |
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What I mean is there's more chance for things to go wrong. |
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Flash,
Did that also apply to the Eastern (Russian) Front of WWII? |
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Hello Bow Don't understand to what you refer. Peter |
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Bow,
I think on the Eastern Front aircraft on both sides were tactical Army co-operation dive bombers and strafers, rather than strategic bombers, and were medium sized rather than heavies. So I'd say yes, the proportion of friendly fire incidents would be much HIGHER since you're attacking in a fluid ground situation blinded by smoke and AA fire, and operating at really low levels. I think aircraft were more heavy fighters, such as the AiraCobra (which the Soviets loved), Sturmovik (highest produced fighter of WW2, about 55,000) Stukas, UHUs etc. Peter |
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Flash In theory What you say is correct, However the heavy friendly casualties, or should I say the incidents that caused heavy casualties, were carried out by the heavy bombers that had been withdrawn from the air assailt on Germany. The difference between the RAF heavy bombers and the USAAF bombers was that each aircraft were responcible for navigating their way to the target. Therefore the master bomber had hundreds of assistants so to speak. The USAAF did not put the same priority on navigation and used to rely on the US equivelent of the Master Bomber who was situated in the centre of the bomb group and when he dropped his bonmbs so did the rest. If he was wrong so were the rest. Bombing the wrong city was not unusual, so hitting friendly forces is would seem to follow 2 TAF were superb at ground support their tactics had been developed by the Desert Airforce in North Africa the USAAF copied these tactics. But for some reason they did not achieve the same respect as 2 TAF. The German troops probably feared the Tempest and Typhoons more than any other Allied aircraft. Arnie |
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Point well taken Arnie, but what about the Pathfinder Mosquitos ? We also used Lancs, and the Americans (this surprised me) B24s with copies of our H2s radar |
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Flash Of ourse we used the mossy and lancs as target markers. But the targets were rather big. The aircrews navigated to say Berlin, and the pathfinders marked the actual target. Lets not forget that Berlin etc were big cities. According to RAF history of the air war over Europe the Pathfinders using the Berlin Olympic stadium as a marker, could destroy Berlin street by street. So much so that they could leave the barracks virtually untouched to show the Germans that we would need them after we had won the war. Arnie |
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Flash Sorry I forgot to add. That as late in the war the first raid an Dresden was supposed to be a raid by the USAAF, unfortunately they bombed the wrong city. The found it on the second day when Dresden was in flames. Arnie |
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Arnie Apropos of nothing, The Olympia Stadion was used as offices for the Allies after the war, and I remember meeting my father there many times. Grey weeping concrete is all I can remember. I watched the Germany vs England football match there, oh, ?'53-55 some time? And there was always a huge bicycle race on boards in Winter. And a circus. So maybe it was a good job we left it alone. Peter |
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Flash Apparently the path finders would mark the Stadium with a different colour of flare for each wave. That wave were then supposed to set a deflection on their Bomb sights and then in theory the bombs would drop an a specific area. This way they could methodically destroy certain parts of the city. Underneath the Stadium the German Government used to store some of the Berliners emergency rations! Although they avoided bombing Barracks. I, Wavell Barracks just outside the Guard room by the main gate. a large depression in the road appeared, when they investigated they found a British 1000 lb bomb for 20 odd years soldiers had been mounting guard on the spot. Arnie |
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Two U.S. soldiers were charged with the premeditated murder of three Iraqis, while 26 people died in American raids in Baghdad's Sadr City neighborhood, the U.S. military said Saturday. The soldiers are accused of killing three Iraqis in separate incidents south of Baghdad, then planting weapons on the victims' remains, the military said in a statement. Fellow soldiers reported the alleged crimes, which took place between April and this month in the vicinity of Iskandariyah, 30 miles south of Baghdad, it said. The U.S. military on Saturday identified the two soldiers charged with murder as Staff Sgt. Michael A. Hensley, from Chandler, N.C., and Spc. Jorge G. Sandoval, from Laredo, Texas. Hensley is charged with three counts each of premeditated murder, obstructing justice and ``wrongfully placing weapons with the remains of deceased Iraqis,'' the military said. He was placed in military confinement in Kuwait on Thursday. |
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Sgt. Hensely and his crew are my kind of real men. If they need a high paying job call me. There are no good nazi. sunny |
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British soldier admits war crime as court martial told of Iraqi civilian's brutal death
A corporal in the Duke of Lancaster's regiment became the first British soldier ever to be convicted of a war crime yesterday as a court martial heard that he and his colleagues systematically abused prisoners at a detention centre in southern Iraq.
One civilian was killed and others tormented brutally while officers, including the most senior to be brought before a court martial in modern times, did nothing to stop the abuse, it was claimed.
Corporal Donald Payne, 35, pleaded guilty to the charge at the start of a court martial involving seven British soldiers. But Cpl Payne denied manslaughter and intending to pervert the course of justice. Six others have pleaded not guilty to charges relating to the death of Baha Mousa, 26, a hotel receptionist being held in custody in Basra in 2003.
The historic court martial heard that the prisoners were forced to maintain a "stress position" - backs against a wall, arms stretched out in front - which has been banned by the British army for more than 30 years. If they dropped their arms they were beaten, it was alleged.
One prisoner alleged he was threatened with lighted petrol and another said he was forced to urinate into a bottle which was then tipped over him.
The violence culminated with the killing of Baha Mousa, who died after being so badly beaten that he suffered 93 injuries, including fractured ribs and a broken nose, the hearing was told.
Opening the court martial, Julian Bevan QC, said: "We are not dealing with robust or rough handling, which is bound to happen in the theatre that existed in Iraq, but something far more serious.
"We are dealing with systematic abuse against prisoners involving unacceptable violence against persons who were detained in custody, hooded and handcuffed and wholly unable to protect themselves over a very long period of time."
Mr Bevan said what happened was "only made possible by the negligence of three people" - the commanding officer, Colonel Jorge Mendonca, Major Michael Peebles, the battle group internment review officer, and Warrant Officer Mark Davies, in charge of tactical questioning.
The incident began at 6am on September 14 2003 when members of the Queen's Lancashire Regiment raided hotels in Basra which they believed were being used by insurgents. In one they found ammunition, grenades, bayonets, a sniper scope, timers, forged identity documents and a large amount of money.
A number of people, including the receptionist, Baha Mousa, were arrested, handcuffed and driven to the battle group's headquarters.
Mr Bevan claimed that over 36 hours from the Sunday morning to Monday evening they were badly mistreated. "They were repeatedly beaten when handcuffed and hooded with hessian sacks, deprived of sleep, continually shouted at and generally abused."
Baha Mousa died on the Monday. Another suffered such serious kidney injuries that he had renal failure and almost died.
In immediate charge of the Iraqis was Cpl Payne. According to Mr Bevan, he was "largely responsible for meting out the inhuman treatment". But others also took part. "Some of them, it seems, just did it for fun or feelings of hostility."
In temperatures which soared to almost 60C, the detainees were kept in the stress position. "No one can maintain that position for long without suffering pain and stress," said Mr Bevan. If they dropped their arms they were punched and kicked and shouted at. They were kept awake by being shouted at or having an iron bar banged next to them, the court was told. Some were also struck with the iron bar.
Cpl Payne denies manslaughter and intending to pervert the course of justice by telling colleagues to say that Baha Mousa had died accidentally after banging his head. But he admitted inhumanly treating Iraqi civilians - a war crime under the International Criminal Court (ICC) Act 2001. Col Mendonca, Maj Peebles and WO Davies denied negligently performing a duty by not ensuring that the prisoners were not ill-treated.
But Mr Bevan said the detention centre was only 60 metres from the main operational and living quarters. "The close proximity is highly relevant when you come to consider how openly these Iraqis were abused and how the shouting, bawling, screaming from that facility must have been heard by numerous soldiers and officers in that camp and yet no one appears to have raised it as a concern."
Two others, Lance Corporal Wayne Crowcroft, and Kingsman Darren Fallon, denied a joint charge under the ICC Act of inhumanly treating Iraqi civilians. Sergeant Kelvin Stacey, pleaded not guilty to assault causing actual bodily harm.
The court martial, held at the military court centre at Bulford Camp in Wiltshire, is expected to last for up to 16 weeks.
Legal history was also made when the judge, Mr Justice McKinnon, ruled that images of the soldiers' faces could not be shown for fear that they could become terrorist targets. Nor can their addresses be given in even the vaguest terms.
The charges
All soldiers from the Duke of Lancaster's Regiment (formerly the Queen's Lancashire Regiment) unless stated otherwise
Corporal Donald Payne, 35 Manslaughter of Baha Musa, inhuman treatment of Iraqi civilians, a war crime under the International Criminal Court Act 2001, intending to pervert the course of justice
Colonel Jorge Mendonca MBE, 42 Negligently performing a duty by failing to take such steps ... to ensure Iraqi civilians being held ... under his command were not ill-treated
Lance Corporal Wayne Crowcroft, 22 Inhuman treatment of Iraqi civilians under the ICC Act
Kingsman Darren Fallon, 23 Inhuman treatment of Iraqi civilians under the ICC Act
Sergeant Kelvin Stacey, 29 Assault causing actual bodily harm, alternatively common assault
Major Michael Peebles, 35 Intelligence Corps Negligently performing a duty by failing to ensure that miliary personnel under his effective control did not ill-treat Iraqi civilians
Warrant Officer Mark Davies, 37, Miliary Intelligence Section
Neglecting to perform a duty by failing to take steps to ensure that Iraqi civilians were not ill-treated.
All men pleaded not guilty to all charges save that Cpl Payne admitted inhuman treatment of Iraqi civilians |
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Sounds as if they were trained by my headmaster. |
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