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| | From:  Flashman8 (Original Message) | Sent: 8/6/2007 10:35 PM |
NEUTRAL IRELAND Although a member of the British Commonwealth, Ireland (Eire) remained neutral throughout the war. The Prime Minister, Eamonn De Valera, refused repeated requests by Britain for the use of port facilities at Cobh, Berehaven and Lough Swilly on the west coast of Ireland during the Battle of the Atlantic, ports that Britain considered essential to her survival. (These ports were closed to the Royal Navy in 1939 just as Britain was preparing to go to war). When De Valera refused to order all German and Japanese diplomats out of the country London cancelled all travel between the Irish Republic and Britain on March 12, 1944. In December, 1941, Hitler had considered invading Ireland and using it as a platform for the assault on the British mainland. If this had proceeded it would have marked the end for Britain. It was Admiral Raeder who changed Hitler's mind, pointing out that in the face of Britain's huge naval superiority it was quite out of the question. The help De Valera gave the Germans was to refuse Britain the use of airfields and submarine bases in Ireland which would have set back the U-boat operations in the Atlantic. The use of the Berehaven port for instance would have enabled our anti-submarine escorts to operate a further 180 miles out into the Atlantic. How many ships and seamen's lives this would have saved is a matter of conjecture. During the 'Emergency' enlistment in the British Army however, was popular and around 42,000 Irishmen joined the armed forces or went to sea in the Merchant Navy. Eight won the Victoria Cross, Britain's highest award. These servicemen, when returning home on leave had to wear civilian clothes to avoid any political embarrassment should they come home in a British uniform. Thousands more went to England to work in British munitions factories during the war. Whenever an Irishman died in battle he was reported in De Valera's press as having died while working in Britain. (On May 2, 1945, de Valera called at the German legation in Dublin and expressed his condolences for the death of Hitler. In neutral Portugal flags were flown at half mast after the government ordered two days of national mourning) |
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| | | From: -TinCan | Sent: 8/13/2007 11:48 PM |
Have you ever wondered why people are always beating up the Irish over their neutrality during the war and never seem to question the other neutrals, like Sweden, Switzerland, and Spain for example. Recent reports have shown that Switzerland was a lot cozier with Germany than they let on all these years, and Franco was just a mini Hitler at best. |
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Reliable sources say that Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead. It's always good to confirm these things. Of course, Arnie thinks he's still alive and well. sunday |
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Sunday . Oh he's dead alright I will send you some photos of his tomb. In 1940 after the Blitz on Belfast Churhill told De Valera that if the Irish did not their lights out and stop guiding the German Bombers he would put them out. Arnie |
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TinCan The major difference between Eire and Switzerland is we convoyed foodstuffs in for the Irish. The only thing we convoyed in for Switzerland was gold. Sweden, ditto. The point about those countries is they could not have given us territorial bases of any use. Ireland could. Yes, let's talk Bofors, Oerlikon, etc. but to be honest, the Germans had licences before the war. Let's talk Japanese Nambu and Italian LMGs, pistols, and rifles on the same basis. What did hurt was Swedish steel. And the Irish resolutely keeping the cabbage and potato recipe from us. we could have poisoned the Germans with at day 1. Peter |
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Tincan During the war several German spys (some Irish)entered Brittain via Ireland the official Irish Policy was to ignore them. However Irish Special Branch had a bad habit of informing their British counterparts leading to the spys capture some were executed others were turned and worked for the British. As flash said that apart from certain item of food other materials which were rationed were allowed through to Ireland at the same amounts per head as in Britain. Of course some item came from over seas at great risk and loss of life never the less the Irish were treated exactly the same as Britons. The British Government were well aware of Devaleras sympathy for Hitler some of his ministers had fought for Franco in the facist Irish Brigade The only country by the way, that Franco allowed a seperate national contingent. Other fascist sympathisers from UK and US etc were part of the Spanish Foreugn Legion. Even the German and Italian Contingents were supposed to be part of the Spanish Army. The signing of the Book of condolence by Devalera as been mentioned but after the war he let in a number of wanted German NAZIs and gave them asylum . All were assimilated into Irish society many with top Government and Industrial posts. I think the last one died fairly recently. Arnie PS:When the germans tried to recruit British POWs into the Legion of St George many of the original recruits were Irish POWs But the numbers were so few that it never came to much, using more German resources recruiting and training than they were worth. |
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Flash No regiment was allowed to specific recruit from the the South.The Irish were normaly split up among English and Scots regiments although many joined the Irish Fusileers which was a mainly Catholic Regiment. All the the three Irish Infantry Regiments only maintained two battalions throughou the war. Arnie |
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TinCan There were reports of USAAF aircrews crashing and being interned in Switzerland. Were they repatriated? did they have so sign a parole? Peter |
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TRUE TC, IT HAS ONLY BEEN IN RECENT YEARS THAT ANY OF IT WAS RETURNED. WHAT WERE THEY EVER THINKING, KEEPING A VAULT FULL OF GOLD TEETH AND SAYING THAT THEY WEREN'T ABLE TO FIND THE PROPER OWNERS TO RETURN THEM. |
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US airplanes landing in Switzerland. Very controversial. Charges of cowardice or as the British call it, lack of moral fiber. Apparently, when a plane landed. The aircraft was impounded, and her crew held in Switzerland until the end of the war.
These charges grew so vociferous that the US Air Force issued a warning that all aircraft landing in Switzerland would be inspected after the war and a crew held accountable unless there had been something seriously wrong with the aircraft.
You know, it had to be tempting. Fly straight ahead to the target with a possibility of being shot down or killed. Or radio that your main magneto has quit working and turned just a few miles over the border into Switzerland. Living good quarters, good food, and fraternizing with Swiss women. After 40 or 50 missions. It must have been very tempting.
Redneck -- Dragon
http://ftvdb.bfi.org.uk/sift/title/434865?view=synopsis |
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One point Easy to criticise the Yanks but there was a colossal concentration of Flakturmen on the approaches. If you have a gun with an optimum range of say 4,000 feet, (37-40mm) and the terrain elevates that gun by 1,000 feet, you've got an advantage. especially since the light flak traverses quickly and is multi barreled. 2-3- 4. Flight paths were also channeled by the lakes and mountains. All well and good inspecting aircraft months after they've crashed. but would the magnetics in their compasses and magnetos (and their insulation, shellac in those days) stay consistent. especially after a swiss winter? A B17 crew was 10 men. Are we guaranteeing all the crew would agree, and keep their silence after the war? OK, Some will shoot me down on the above, but I believe there are propagandists who'll seize at everything. Peter |
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Tincan The Swiss were more than helpfull to the NAZIs, but then again they had been very helpful to German Jews who stached their gold and valuables during the great depression and inflation of the twenties. Alan Dulles the US representative in that country together with the Governer of the Bank of England and Prince Berhardt of the Netherlands were all alledged to have had dealings with Heinrich Himmler and the SS during the war through the good offices of the Swiss banking system Apparently Dulles arranged for the SS funds which were equel to many countries GDP, were secretly transfered to accounts controlled by the US in South America and later used to restart the German economy after the war disguised as US investment. See 'The Unlickely Death of Heirich Himmler' by Hugh Thomas Arnie |
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Arnie,
I understand that Allen Dulles (along with British Intelligence officers) secretly negotiated with SS General Karl Wolff in order to get a surrender of the Nazi Army in Italy, keeping the Soviets out of the picture. Dulles was very much anti-Hitler, and was indirectly involved in Hitler's failed assassination attempt. He was also anti-Soviet and tried to keep as many German institutions intact as possible for the post-war period, in order to try to minimize Soviet influence. Obviously, he was not entirely successful in any of these endeavours. |
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Flash Your Message #21makes a lot of sense. There are a couple of flaws in the argument. The problem started during the first USAAF bomber that started in December 1943. It is not unfair to say that the US airmen never knew what hit them the Luftwaffe just shot them out of the sky. The inexperienced airmen were badly shaken and morale plummeted. There training and not prepared them for such losses. During this period aircraft started to cross into Switzerland and Sweden, some were damaged, some were avoiding roaming German fighters others were just suffering a sort of mass hysteria, and some I suppose organised it between the crew and did a bunk. The numbers that had gone over the borders became an embarrassment when the RAF reconnaissance flights started to bring back pictures of row upon row of these aircraft. This became a subject of national pride to the USAAF and of course a source of embarrassment to its leaders. After an official investigation carried they decided to bring out Rule 22 which in essence was what Redneck mentioned previously the results of the investigation were never published at the time ,but I suppose they could be found now.(?) American aircrews also landed in Spain, Portugal and the Irish Republic. I suppose like all instructions it is only the fear of punishments that make them effective. If no one has that fear they will be disobeyed. Look at it another way could the attitude have been let’s Bugger off now and worry about after the war when it happens�? Arnie |
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