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| | From:  jamestrd (Original Message) | Sent: 2/21/2008 4:29 AM |
Paulus defies Hitler and attempts a breakout at Stalingrad..and Links with Manstein..
is it a possibility to be successful and if it is, what changes on the eastern front and the bigger picture, the outcome of the war? |
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Note flatness of chieftan's driver compartment. this is because the driver lies flat on his back, using a periscope. (and motor-bike gear lever) |
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Hi Sunday,
Thats the wikipedia condensed versions.
There was an opportunbity for the breakout to be successful..it was to be between Dec 19th -26th... after this , it was too late as Manstein could no longer hold the 4th panzer army in place.
Paulus was urged to move and fight on towards them to link up.There were earlier blunde4rs and delays on Hitlers [part..
Manstein would have been able to supply paulus with enough fuel and supply to move half of the 6th Army's artillery and mechanized units for 40 miles.. They only had to get 30..
It was aggressive, but had Paulus acted, it could have been successful.
With this link up,
They could have secured the flanks and split the russians in half.
Mansteins plan was quite thorough..If followed, the whole oiutcome of the war would have been changed.. at least on the eastern front.
it was Hitlers inability to see the strategy and to surrender useless land and gains, that sealed their fate. The Russians could have absolutely been defeated, and if they were, most likely, so would have Europe.
i often wonder if Hitler subconsciously planned for Germany's destruction.. some kind of twisted death wish for his people..despite what he preached, he all too often went against the destiny.
Why did he allow the british to escape at Tobruk?
Why shift from Moscow?
Why not capture the Suez Canal? ( major military strategic location)This would have forced the British out of Africa and Greece and turkey to fall without a shot.It also opens the doors to the middle east and india.. |
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sorry, didn't finish my thought,
the suez canal was also the back door to Russian instead of a frontal assault, and of course the Arab nations, where they would have endless supplies of fuel.
This would have brought England to its knees and quite frankly, at these early stages of the war, the US would not have even been able to help..
Hitlers generals saw this , yet as usual were dismissed. |
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Wew had in fact booted the Vichy French out of Syria and Iran and (with the Jewish Brigade) had a good grip on Palestine so we had a good bloc notwithstanding Egypt. |
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Tiger ref 28. That would be too simple, but of course is valid... The Afrika Corps was ignored by Hitler. The Suez canal could have been taken earlier than el Alamaein and was proposed. if Im not mistaken, by Hoth... Sea Lion was feared as a result of tobruk..British do not escape, which was allowed by halting the panzer armies, sea lion can now be successful...or not even necessary and the UK capitulates.. with the mediterannean sealed, the canal captured, much of this could have been achieved without over extending the German forces. a useful ally wouldnt have been bad too( no offense italianos) |
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furthermore,
Hitlers admiration of the "UK empire" may have been the reaosn to allow the british to escape. he then focused on Russia thinking their defeat would cause the British to sue for peace...
the answer lied in the canal...All Europe would have fallen and russia would not have stood a chance.
The wasted use of men and resources to execute the Final Solution was also a major military blunder...
Im currently reading "How Hitler could have won the war" by Bevin Alexander.... highly worth reading.. |
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ooops, dunkirk.... my bad...
yes, turning on Russia in a full frontal assault was a big mistake.. but again, it results from hitlers failure of Dunkirk and earlier africa proposed strategies... |
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ich wünsche wirklich ein wenig LEBENSRAUM HEUTE ABEND You oversimplify Suez, I think Dimensions: Length from Port Said to Gulf of Suez - 100 miles (160 kilometres) Build time - 11 years Current average use - 55 ships per day Dimensions in 1869 - Depth 26 feet (8 metres),
Bottom width 72 feet (22 metres),
Top width 190 feet (58 metres). Dimensions in 1967 - Depth 40 feet (12 metres)
Bottom width 179 feet (55 metres)
Now, with most mobile bridgers max 10 ft long, and a depth of 40 feet, that's some obstacle. And a distance of 100 miles to allow outflanking. |
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At this stage of the war, Flash, the British were in no position to defend it , let alone transport reinforcing troops after its capture.
Bridges wouldnt be necessary if this is the case.. Just controlling the shiping lane would be enough.
Jodl proposed the captrue and Raeder composed the strategy, but could not get Hitler to bite.
Tis capture would control and opne doors to the middel east.
The British were far too few in numbers to defend and would have been extiguished quickly.
Gibralter and malta were not necessary in this strategy. the meditteranean would have been sealed off and the British forced to leave.
I belive jodl visited Africa(may be wrong) and determined that 4 panzer divisions were needed to accomplish the plan.
Hitler would not commit the forces and only sent 1,plus a light machanized division. he wanted to save his tanks for Russia, which again, went completely agianst the strategy.
he halted his panzer armies at Dunkirk and remained in medium barage distance of about 8-9 miles when he could have captured the BEF. They were outflanked and could have been encircled, but he ordered the flank guard out..
he thought this would show the britiish he was willing to make peace and thought it would work.. All it proved to be was a huge mistake, again, against his Generals advice.
The italain proved to be of little use, and Rommel was finally sent in. Before this, they were consulted and knew the italians could not stand alone. they were waving white flags, sometimes 50,000 at a time against garrisons of 3000 British.. thats a joke.
Rommel was given a very difficult task, and delays of the propsed strategies, letting the Brits escape Dunkirk, gave them time to send reinforcemtns into Africa.. Thes 2 errors proved to be very costly in that campaign, as well as Europe, then finally Russia.
many countries would have fell quickly with little german resources and manpower expended. Oil fields, Iraq and syria, greece, Yugoslavia all would have fell quickly.
the Germans would have had economic advantages, endless fuel supplies, increased manpower as many would have either joined politically to be part of the new economic power and to reap rewards of it.
Southern Russia would be accessible, the Caucuses could be invaded form the south, and finally a northern invasion/ the Russians at this time would be unable to defend against this.
Dunkirk and the canal would have forced England to lay down.
I am only condensing the theory, as there is more depth to it, but these were the intial pproposals and if properly executed, the whole outcome would have been very different.
The US would not have been able to create the supply chains and manpower quickly enough to be any factor.it would have taken years befroe we could have even attempted any type of invasion.
withAfrica eliminated, we could not have entered.. I dont know the mainladn England is any factor at this point, and sea Lion most likely would not have been necessary.
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Thanks James. A very good summary of a very complex point. Maybe my mind was fixated on the bridging problem. Too many years staring at the Soviets over the Weser. And them staring at me. Plus my 8 Plt. and my 4 knackered APCs. And the beer in the back!!!!! Dutch courage, you see. They were only 116 miles away. |
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