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| | From:  Sharon55510 (Original Message) | Sent: 5/8/2008 4:24 PM |
I had trouble deciding which section to put this in. It would fit in World History or American History. What do you think? Were we justified in dropping the atom bombs on Japan? What different outcomes do you think we'd had if we'd chosen a different course? |
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ok more lets do it..I would think a simple tactic as you outline would have been strategically implemented and initiated by military tacticians much more proficient than yourself.
Did airpower alone capitulate germany? No
Japan? No
NVA/vietcong? No
Could it have done so??? NO
Did airpower defeat the Soviets?NO
could it have? No
if it was so simple, this would all that would have been needed.
I am not denigrating the importance of air power and bombings, but eventually ground forces are needed.
Its open to vote..... |
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Pete If we had had a coupla dozen more atomic bombs then bombing them would have made sense. We didn't so we would have had to invade sooner or later. MacCauthor was actually pissed that he didn't get to do so. He didn't want to leave the Japanese with the same retoric the Germans had at the beginning of WW2 about how they had never lost only been betrayed as the allies hadn't made it into Germany. Look at Dresden the allies destroyed the whole city and all it did was make them mad and give them a lot of martyrs. |
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James #33 There was a vacuum between May and August 1945. Germany was defeated. Land War was practically over in the far East. Had Russia moved the units she used in Manchuria, and those she used in the Kurils, on to Japanese soil, and declared a unified front, would we with our Labour Government done a dicky bird? We already sat on our backsides when Greece, Italy, France, and Bugaria were threatened by the Communists. And you and we gave East Germany and big chunks of Finland to them. |
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Flash,
I see what you are saying now,
But I am nder the assumption you meant they are declaring war b y joining Japan..I also believe, that had they done this and joined Japan, this would have sent the US into a different mindset. Yoo are speaking about a campaign in which the American people, government and military held very personal.
I dont believe the Russians were strong enough to fight this war.
Their success was against an army that had been weakened, ill supplied and run by a delusional maniac.
The uS only 1.5 million men in Europe by wars end with another 6 million in the selective service ready to be called up... At the time we had a population of 250 million, so it is safe to say, we couple have added about 12 million men aged 18-30 if needed..
Our industry was untouched and we controlled the seas and air in both campaigns..
The political decisions that resulted at the time, would have been much different with an actual act of aggression and war.
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James I am, in a nutshell, saying - Russia and Japan, both neutral, can talk embassy to embassy, or visit each others' capitals free of Allied interference.
- Russian ships (probably re-badged spare Jap ones) can transport Russian troops from Vladivostock to Japan free of Allied interference.
- On the magic day, the Russians turn round and say "hey! This is the Japan-Russia co-prosperity sphere! Go away........."
- The Allies cannot touch Russia without waging war on her. Only 3 nukes, and a lot of Russian acreage. And a lot of pro Soviet politicians.
The biggest threat would be the Armenian navy, needing Russian protection from the Turks. |
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Flash,
Lets see if we can free you from this Nutshell..
How are Japan and Russia neutral after 5 years of war?
Are we speaking 1945? or earler in the war?
If Russia makes political ties only with japan at this stage, it in fact becomes an enemy, so war will be waged by the allies... Its not like this was never discussed, but the result was to politically align and appease the russians and focus on liberating Europe.
The allies were well aware the Soviet threat.... Churchill and rooselvelt wwere both very in tune.
I cant see how Russian and zJapan can unite, considering Japan wanted to control asia, especially the southeast.
There would be too many nations at risk, many of which the allies now occupied in the south east, so it is realistic to say, these nations would now join the fight.. The same would remain true in Europe.
The only way now for Russia to enter Asia is by war as we are already in most of the nations.
Now they must shift forces towards jungle warfare in which they are not equipped for , nor experienced at.
An interference in the defeat of Japan would only have one result.. WAR... and given the circumstances, The Ruslies would get their asses handed to them.
they would never be able to mass the troops and equipemtn to the east necessary..
We had 17 carriers alone in the vicinity ( Allied) The waters between Russia and Japan would have been entered...4-5 carriers could be spared for that, plus a small battle fleet of battle ships, destroyers, subs etc..without compromising the strengths.
Russia and Japan would be fighting against too many nations at this point.
I don't see how the US would have turned their heads, even without a true act of war..The alignment itself, would in fact be an act of war. |
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James Germany (Molotov-Ribbentrop pact) brokered a peace between Russia and Japan from 1939 to 1945. See below. starts 1939, Zukhov's victory in Manchuria The Soviets took some 3,000 Japanese prisoners, many badly wounded. The Soviets were eager to indoctrinate them to Communism. Some 1,000 stayed on in the Soviet Union rather than face dishonor at home. Soviet casualties were also high. They admitted to a little over 9,000 casualties, but the actual total was closer to 17,000 or higher. But these were losses the Red Army could afford.
At this point the Soviets could have pushed into Manchuria, but instead they halted at the line the MPR had claimed at the start of the affair and dug in. All through this period the Soviet KGB had a spy ring operating in Tokyo under the masterful leadership of Richard Sorge. Sorge's information showed that the Japanese wanted an end to the fighting as soon as possible. Knowing this, as early as August 22 the Soviets had offered Japanese Ambassador Togo Shigenori in Moscow a cease fire.
On August 23, 1939 the Soviets signed a Non-Aggression Pact with Nazi Germany, agreeing to divide Poland. The last hope of the 'Strike North' faction in the Japanese high command was dead. On September 15th, as German tanks closed in on Warsaw, Ambassador Togo signed a cease fire with the Russians, to take affect on the 16th. Both sides agreed to exchange POWs and establish a joint commission to resolve disputes along the length of the border. As the Second World War engulfed Europe, Stalin was free to focus his attention in the West.
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Flash, I metioned they battled earler, but this seems to prove a point I was making. The Russians were very weak in this stage of the war and they did not to war on 2 fronts, so an "armisitce" was made politically.It also benefited the Japs to focus on easier targets.. The reality is, after further conquests, both of them would have turned on eachother. By wars end, Russsa had it war macnine running, but against a weakend army. They were quite bloodied themselves. Towards wars end, had they decided to keep terms with japan, side with them, they would have invoked war with the allies, a war they could not afford, especially on 2 fronts and particularly, a Pacific campagin in which they were not equipped for nor experienced at. |
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James, Flash is making Arnie's argument here & you are making far too much sense for em. Cease & desist or make ready for a character assassination. T-Dog |
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Tommy nothing to do with Arnie. I am saying the Allies were pro Soviet and would have given Japan to Russia. Or allowed Russia and japan to face us off jointly. |
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Flash, okay Arnie's argument has been that the U.S. dropped the bomb on the Japs to keep the Russians from invading & conquering the country. Also that the Japs were more afraid of the Russkies than they were of the bomb. T-Dog |
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| This message has been deleted due to termination of membership. |
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| This message has been deleted due to termination of membership. |
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Thank you Tommy. #46, I now understand. I believe Russia would have allied with Japan. I have explained clearly and logically why it was possible; Japan being so physically close. And I think the A-bomb is what put the Russians off; it being such an unknown quantity. Well done USA. |
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Flash, okay Arnie's argument has been that the U.S. dropped the bomb on the Japs to keep the Russians from invading & conquering the country. Also that the Japs were more afraid of the Russkies than they were of the bomb. I AGREE TOMMY BUT I DON'T THINK THAT THE JAPS WERE REALLY OVERLY SCARED OF THE RUSSIANS. IT WAS ALL ABOUT ENDING THE WAR BEFORE THE RUSSIAN INVADED FROM THE NORTH FOR SURE. THE QUESTION SHOULD BE WHY? THE WAR IN EUROPE ENDED IN MAY AND BY AUGUST IN THE PACIFIC SO NOT REALLY A GREAT DEAL OF TIME TO MAKE A PROPER ASSESSMENT OF THE RUSSIANS IN EUROPE, OR WAS IT. THE RUSSIANS LIKE YOURSELFS AND THE BRITS WERE GRABBING UP ANY NEW TECHNOLOGY THAT THEY CAME ACROSS IN GERMANY INCLUDING SCIENTISTS. AMERICA REALIZIED EARLY THE IMPORTANCE OF WHAT IT WOULD MEAN IF SOMEONE ELSE DEVELOPED THE BOMB FIRST. STARTING BACK IN 1942 WITH THE ATTACKS ON THE HEAVY WATER PLANT IN NORWAY BRITAIN AND THE STATES MUST HAVE REALIZIED THE IMPORTANCE OF HAVING THE BOMB. |
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