MSN Home  |  My MSN  |  Hotmail
Sign in to Windows Live ID Web Search:   
go to MSNGroups 
Free Forum Hosting
 
Important Announcement Important Announcement
The MSN Groups service will close in February 2009. You can move your group to Multiply, MSN’s partner for online groups. Learn More
The History Page[email protected] 
  
What's New
  
  Message Boards  
  For New Members  
  On This Day....  
  General  
  American History  
  Ancient History  
  British History  
  Current Events  
  European History  
  The Civil War  
  War  
  World History  
  Pictures  
    
    
  Links  
  Militaria Board  
  Cars/Motorcycles  
  
  
  Tools  
 
World History : The Man Who would be King
Choose another message board
 
     
Reply
(1 recommendation so far) Message 1 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameArnie-113  (Original Message)Sent: 2/20/2005 12:54 PM

LONDON �?This week the world learned that the United States Army has been investigating more than 30 claims of prisoner abuse in Iraq and Afghanistan since December 2002. So far, officials have found a catalog of "sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses" at the hands of American captors. This horrible scandal represents the most serious crisis for the coalition since the war on terrorism began. Occupation inevitably creates resentment; but humiliation fosters outright rebellion, and winning back the moral high ground after this calamity is far more important than reasserting control in Falluja or in the Taliban-controlled areas of Afghanistan.

Military domination is fatally undermined when occupiers, even if only a tiny minority of them, misuse their power to demean the conquered. The perils of such behavior resonate throughout history. As America finds itself ever more deeply embroiled in Central Asia and Iraq, it need only look at the experience of its coalition partner, Britain, in Afghanistan to learn about the hubris and transience of empire.

Curiously enough, the most astute witness to one of Britain's worst imperial episodes was an American �?a doctor, soldier, Quaker, Freemason and adventurer by the name of Josiah Harlan. In 1839, General Harlan (as he chose to style himself) stood on the ramparts of Kabul and watched as a foreign army marched in to "liberate" the city, with flags waving and trumpets blaring. General Harlan had spent the previous 12 years in Afghanistan, and he had a premonition of disaster: "To subdue and crush the masses of a nation by military force," he later wrote, "is to attempt the imprisonment of a whole people: all such projects must be temporary and transient, and terminate in a catastrophe."

The current situation in Afghanistan appears, if not peaceful, then manageable, at least compared to Iraq. Coalition troops are working alongside the indomitable Afghans to rebuild a country shattered by two decades of war. But as always in Afghanistan, peace is fragile. Much of the country remains riven by the fiefs of competing warlords, the government's authority beyond Kabul varies from tenuous to nonexistent, and the still-rising toll of American dead is a reminder that the Taliban is far from vanquished.

Over the centuries, successive foreign armies have tried to pacify Afghanistan �?Macedonian, Mogul, Persian, British, Russian and Soviet �?only to discover that this deeply divided land has a way of uniting furiously against any invader that does not tread with the utmost care. As America is discovering, with much of the Islamic world united in outrage over the images of Iraqi captives being abused by servicemen and women, maintaining the peace is a far more delicate and demanding task than winning the war.

No one knew this better than Josiah Harlan. While many of his contemporaries were exploring the Wild West, Harlan had headed for the rather wilder East. Eccentric, cantankerous, ambitious and ludicrously brave, he plunged into the unmapped wilds of Afghanistan in 1827, determined to make himself a king.

General Harlan was no stranger to hubris. Over the ensuing years he parlayed with princes and potentates, led an army across the Hindu Kush mounted on an elephant, and was appointed commander in chief of the Afghan Army by Dost Muhammad Khan, the mighty emir of Kabul. Finally, by striking a pact with native chiefs high in the Hindu Kush, General Harlan became prince of Ghor, a potentate in his own right.

But his reign was short-lived. By 1839, the British, in a decision with eerie modern echoes, opted to remove Dost Muhammad and replace him with a more pliable puppet. The emir was a threat to stability, London declared, an unpredictable autocrat ruling a rogue state. A vast army was assembled in British India, and marched on Kabul: Dost Muhammad's bodyguards melted away, and the ousted ruler took to the hills. When they entered the city, the British found General Harlan calmly having breakfast. The American introduced himself as "a free and enlightened citizen of the greatest and most glorious country in the world."

The British settled in, importing foxhounds, cricket bats, amateur theatricals and all the appurtenances of empire. After an easy victory, it was assumed that the Afghans were docile. The invaders rode roughshod over the local culture, treating the Afghans with disdain, oblivious to the growing rumble of discontent. General Harlan was outraged at such arrogance: "I have seen this country, sacred to the harmony of hallowed solitude, desecrated by the rude intrusion of senseless stranger boors, vile in habits, infamous in vulgar tastes."

What would he have made of his own country's forays into Afghanistan and Iraq nearly two centuries later? In some respects he might have approved. He believed strongly in using military force to bring civilization to the benighted of the earth. He was no friend to tyrants and religious fanatics: he would have been equally revolted by the extremism of the Taliban and the brutality of Saddam Hussein.

Yet he was also insistent that the imperial impulse brought with it heavy responsibilities, an obligation to treat indigenous cultures with respect, to work within local power structures. He saw the British occupation through the eyes of an Afghan, but his response was that of an American; instead of bringing enlightenment, he believed, the British had imposed their own heavy-handed tyranny, and would pay the price in anger and bloodshed. Today, 165 years later, it is America's turn to stand accused of brutal occupation, as the grim and graphic secrets of Abu Ghraib prison are revealed.

Josiah Harlan warned the British of the growing danger, but his words went unheeded. The occupying British swiftly bundled this interfering American out of Kabul, and carried on with their imperial tea party, alternately abusing and offending Afghans.

"Vainglorious and arrogant, the invaders plunged headlong towards destruction," General Harlan wrote in an angry anti-British polemic, as he headed home to America, and obscurity. Within two years the entire British garrison, 15,000 men, women and children, soldiers, families and camp followers, was massacred by Afghan tribesmen in the passes of Kabul, leaving a single wounded survivor, Dr. William Brydon, to stagger into Jalalabad with news of the worst disaster in British imperial history.



First  Previous  2-15 of 15  Next  Last 
Reply
 Message 2 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameREDNECKCASent: 2/20/2005 2:31 PM
That's the subject of a very famous painting.  i think it's titled "Sole Survivor".
 
REDNECKCA
 

Reply
 Message 3 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameArnie-113Sent: 2/21/2005 3:47 PM
Red
 
Spot on. A few facts:
 
The first battalion of my regiment were the illustrious Garrison at Jellahbad, 13th  Foot. were given the title of 'Prince Alberts Own'.

In Afghanistan on the 6th January 1842, the Garrison of Kabul was forced to withdraw back to India following the deterioration of the situation within the City.  On the 13th January a single horseman arrived at the garrison in Jellalabad.  Dr William Brydon was the lone survivor of 16,000, who perished on the road from Kabul, at the hands of the Afghan tribesmen.  The 13th Light Infantry �?SPAN>  ‘The Somersets�? under the command of Lord ‘Fighting Bob�?Sale, manned the fortifications of Jellalabad and sounded the Bugle every hour for 3 days in an attempt to guide any further survivors to the Garrison.  No one came.  Jellalabad was quickly besieged and eventually relieved nine months later.  The Regiments exploits in Afghanistan were idolised by the British public and they became known as the "Illustrious Garrison" and “Jellalabad Heroes�? For these actions Queen Victoria approved the title '13th or Prince Albert’s Regiment of Light Infantry'; the Regiment’s facings were changed from yellow to blue and a mural crown superscribed ‘Jellalabad�?was added to the badge. 

 

<o:p> </o:p>

<o:p>General 'Fighting Bob' Sale</o:p>

 
The Battle of Maiwand from were Dr Brydon escaped is an 'epic' story of the Colonial British Army :
 
Maiwand is essentially a story of bravery and endurance in the most adverse conditions, and of unselfishness and dedication in a long and difficult retreat. It is about the extraordinary courage of the native infantry who, despite suffering huge casualties, stood their ground in the open until finally overwhelmed by numbers; of the gallant sacrifice of those young British soldiers of the 66th who were surrounded but fought on around their Colours to the last man. Then there was the steadiness of the cavalry who stood and suffered heavily through 3 hours of bombardment without being able to take any action, and the discipline of the Horse Artillery who "maintained their military formation and morale throughout" and became the backbone of the retreat "to whom", in the words of the Viceroy, "many of the survivors of the 27th July owe their lives". This was reflected in the decorations awarded to men of E/B Battery: two VCs (Sgt Mullane and Gnr Collis), a CB (Capt Slade) and eight DCMs.

Fifteen years later James Collis forfeited his Victoria Cross when he was found guilty of bigamy. But it was restored to him in 1901 by Edward VII who said that if it came to it Collis could wear it on the scaffold! Collis was typical of the hardy British soldier who went to fight the Empire's wars for a shilling or so a day and his keep.

Gunner Collis VC  Royal Horse Artillery

I've dug out a couple more pictures for you;

One is the Royal Horse Artillery rescuing their guns,  'C' Battery were given the title  C 'Maiwand' battery.
 
 
Rescuing the Guns
 
The second is the last  stand of the 66th Foot (Berkshires)
Note the little dog it was the pet of a Private Soldier.  Stayed with its master snapping and snarling at the Afghans until the end when it died with him.
 
At first a tremendous fire was poured into them but the Ghazis came on with great determination and the Indians would not face them at close quarters. They broke and ran and the whole mass crashed into the rear or of the 66th, breaking its line into fragments.

The watercourse offered the obvious rallying point and most of the troops made of it instinctively. The 66th, who were for the most part in small rallying squares, kept up a steady fire during the retreat, but the Indians, many of whom had thrown away their arms, were slaughtered like sheep by the wild irregulars.

The Battle of Maiwand 1880
The last eleven at the Battle of Maiwand
27th July, 1880
Colonel Galbraith, who was carrying the Queen’s Colour at this stage, rallied most of the survivors of his battalion there and made a determined stand. Unfortunately the position was very exposed. The Colonel decided to retire to Khig, where use might be made of houses and garden walls. The withdrawal was ordered and the men went back steadily. Colonel Galbraith fell at once and was left still grasping the Colour amongst the sixty or seventy of his men who had also been killed there.

About a hundred of the Regiment made their second stand in a walled garden. By then they were surrounded by hordes of irregulars and, although they killed hundreds of them, the end was no longer in doubt. The Afghans still would not close, but shot down the British at a horrifying rate. The end was soon on them. With only two officers and nine men remaining they formed up and charged out of the garden in a last desperate assault on their tormentors. They advanced for some three hundred yards until wounds and exhaustion brought them to a halt, when they formed a tiny square and continued to fire steadily. Only when the last man was shot down did the Ghazis swarm upon them.

The 66th received no official recognition for its services at Maiwand. It was a defeat, so no battle honour could be given for it. Nor, apparently, did it warrant a bar to the Afghan Medal. The battery which had behaved remarkably well, received a number of Victoria Crosses but nothing of that sort went to the 66th, for the good reason that there was no one left qualified to make recommendations. Yet the Regiment was content, for although General Burroughs came in for some criticism, no one had anything but praise for the 66th. Even the Afghans, who valued courage above all other virtues, had been impressed, and one of their Colonels who had been present spoke in glowing terms of their admiration for the Regiment’s conduct. General Primrose, in his official despatch to the Commander-in-Chief, India, wrote:

". . . . history does not afford any grander or finer instance of gallantry and devotion to Queen and Country than that displayed by the 66th Regiment on the 27th July 1880."

 





 
 

Reply
 Message 4 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameMarkGB5Sent: 2/21/2005 6:54 PM
An interesting, if fictional, footnote to the battle of Maiwand is that Dr Watson of Sherlock Holmes fame was wounded at the battle and bore the effects of his injury for the rest of his life.

Reply
 Message 5 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameArnie-113Sent: 2/22/2005 3:19 PM
Mark Elementary my dear Mark!!!

Reply
 Message 6 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameFlashman10771Sent: 10/25/2005 3:45 PM
My dear Mark GB 5
Please note my nom-de-plume and the fact that the first volume of me memoirs will give you a far better feeling for what happened since young Arnold, who though eager to please, sometimes forgets my crucial efforts for the expansion of the Empire. The accusation that I ran out on me Sergeant and claimed his rightful VC is of course a vile canard and well within the line of business of Messrs Sue, Grabbit, and Runne Barristers at Law lately of The Middle Temple.
My memoirs are of course available for the trifling honorarium of 50 gns, cheques to be made out to The Society for the reclamation of Fallen Gentlewomen
(Sir) Harold Flashman Bt.

Reply
 Message 7 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameFlashman10771Sent: 11/11/2005 3:47 PM
Hello Mark and Arnold
(Is it any coincidence that the master who expelled me from my Alma mater, Rugby School, was also an Arnold? )
A small cheque made out to the Society for the Reclamation of Fallen Gentlewomen will enable you to peruse this gem
 
This will give you the full account of Harlan, since it describes when he was my bodyguard.
Cheers
Fruitful Flash

Reply
 Message 8 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameMarkGB5Sent: 11/11/2005 4:47 PM
I was looking at the set of Flashman books in a bookshop a few days ago. Do you recommend them ? At the moment I'm deep into a Trollope !

Reply
 Message 9 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameREDNECKCASent: 11/12/2005 12:41 AM
Most of the Flashman books are good reading, but a few get a little slow at times.
 
Even better are Fraser's personal memoirs of his life as an OR in the British army and  as an officer in a Highland Regiment.  'The Genral Danced at Dawn' , MacAuslan in the Rough, and Quartered Safe Out Here.
 
REDNECKCA

Reply
 Message 10 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameArnie-113Sent: 11/12/2005 1:14 PM
Red
 
Quatered safe out Here, is probable the best book written about the ordinary soldier in the Burma War.
 
Our RSM in Malaya had served in the same battalion of the Border Regiment in Burma, as a young man.
 
Arnie 

Reply
 Message 11 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameFlashman10771Sent: 11/16/2005 2:11 PM
Hello Rednecka
You have to appreciate that bein' about 183 years old, me prose can slow down a bit.
Incidentally, how's Miss Grace Slick and young Marty Balin doin' these days? An' those nice young fellers from Buffalo Springfield?
Cheers
Footloose Flash

Reply
 Message 12 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname-TinCanSent: 8/3/2006 8:33 PM
I read, "Flashman at the Charge"once. Was really quite good, had a bit of everything, action, adventure, sex.  I'm not sure but I think it was set in Napolean's time.

Reply
 Message 13 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameCurliestJimbertSent: 8/3/2006 11:49 PM
A revelation from Mark, which I expected Flashman and Tdog to pick up on
Jimbert
 
At the moment I'm deep into a Trollope !

Reply
 Message 14 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameMarkGB5Sent: 8/4/2006 7:02 PM
Indeed I was at the time and intend to be again.

Reply
 Message 15 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameFlashman8Sent: 8/4/2006 9:12 PM
TinCan
Sorry, I was born in 1834, and Flashman at the Charge refers to my Crimean adventures.
Available at a snip
As for young Mark's literary taste, it was fortunate I spotted the 'e' at the end of said author's name and thereby deprived his no doubt very active libel lawyers' of their fees. Trollope  was in fact a ragin' homosexual, not a fille de joie and had a mother fixation so I might suggest, as per TinCan's comments, that young Mark treats himself to a copy of my never knowingly undersold memoirs before members of this site start to murmer. Specially Sunday.

First  Previous  2-15 of 15  Next  Last 
Return to World History