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General : Serious question- I am not looking to start a revolution
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 Message 1 of 52 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamekarmel3  (Original Message)Sent: 1/10/2009 6:38 PM
Ok so I met this couple last night- they breed Danes.  They are not registered nor do they show.  They are however very  passionate about the breed, very informed in regards to health and welfare, feeding etc and dearly love their dogs.  They have 2 females and 1 male on site. 
 I do not show nor do I have any interest in showing- her pups IMHO are stunning looking dogs.  Her harls are probably too heavily marked to show and her one female will have the odd fawnequin - they pups are beautiful. I was very comfortable chatting with her.  I have,  in my short time living with a Dane,  come to understand the difference between an idiot BYB and a quality breeder.  These people answered every question I had, with the correct answers, had full history on all 3 of their dogs as they came from their mentor breeder in a neighbouring provence.  They don't overbreed the females and all of the pups and adults see a vet on a regular basis- she  offers her vets phone number for a reference.  There is a scrapbook online of the grown pups and their new guardians along with a message board- almost every pup they have sold has kept in touch with them and there pics of them growing up.
Now my question to you all is this:  Is there anything wrong with purchasing a dog from breeders such as this?  Just because they do not show and their dogs are not to show standard, does this make them a lesser quality breeder?  Is there some kind of code of ethics in regards to Dane colouring and not intentionally creating non show quality (colour) dogs?  What difference does it make whether or not the dogs are registered?  I am just looking for opinions as when I first met them, I judged them instantly- then I spoke to them and they really are good people breeding good dogs.  What do you all think?  I know this is a very touchy subject and please don't rip me a new one for bringing this up- I am just curious about the "ethics" of breeders and is there a whole "elite" society out there looking for the perfect show dog.  I personally would rather get a dog from these people than a breeder on a mission just to breed a champion.  Again, just looking for opinions.  Hoping its safe to ask for them.  Mel.

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 Message 38 of 52 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamekahluadanesSent: 1/23/2009 2:52 AM
"So am I to understand that a Showman/breeder after picking and negotiating
their 'show potentials' out of their litter, then choose to sell the
remaining litter as companions/pets means that they don't have sound
breeding/bloodlines behind them? I am sure their are many Showman that will
be very disappointed to hear this. "


Nope that is not at all what I'm saying at all (and you know it)since responsible breeders sell their pets on spay/neuter agreements and limited registration and these same breeders also carefully screen their potential buyers (although even in the most careful of screenings a bad apple can slip through)... therefore in 99% of the puppies sold by responsible breeders there will be no pets only being bred.... The Pets only people that breed for pets only are mostly made up of people who buy their dogs from less then stellar breeders..people who have virtually no idea (or very little) about breed standard, health, bloodlines, etc is all about, may or may not have dogs registered with a legit registry such as AKC, CKC (Canadian Kennel Club), UKC (United Kennel Club) and very often either don't have registered dogs or have them registered with one of the scam registries such as CKC (Continental kennle Club), ACA (American Canine Association), APDR (American Pet Dog Registry) and the like, breed to the closest possible stud, pay no attention to breeder code of ethics, etc. These are also the same people that advertise "rare" colors and such.

Responsible breeders don't need to be disappointed at all...they are doing what they should be is the irresponsible that should be disappointed. A responsible breeder knows that even breeding the best to the best doesn't always result in the goal they were trying to achieve..they also know that there will be nice pets in every litter..pets they can be proud of and know they have done the best they can to produce with health, conformation, longevity, temperament..a complete package..pets that will make loving family companions.

 Message 39 of 52 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameMyVelvetElvis1Sent: 1/23/2009 5:54 AM
Dale, you have done a great job and put in alot of time and energy into trying to make someone understand the difference between responsible breeders and typical backyard breeders. I would say your point is just not going to get across to someone who obviously breeds their dogs for profit.  I find it dissapointing that people just choose not to listen and will go against good sense and information. When the vet bills start pilling up then hopefully they will fully understand why people are passionate about preserving breed standards.

 Message 40 of 52 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameDangerousGuardianDragonSent: 1/23/2009 1:55 PM
That is a very serious accusation, which I am sure there is documentation to support it.  Where might I find the evidence that substantiates this?  And what if anything is being done legally to stop such registries from operating and shut them down?  Is there any kind of legal action being taken against these registries?  If not why? 
I definitely want to investigate this further.

 Message 41 of 52 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamekahluadanesSent: 1/23/2009 3:18 PM
One only needs to look and investigate, there is plenty of proof, plenty of info out there on scam registries as they are called. These registires are ones put together by Puppy Mills and others who are unable to register their dogs with a legit registry. Info on these types of registries abounds. In essence the papers from these types aren't worth the paper they are written could make their own registration certificate on line themselves and have it worth just as much.
As far as anything legally to stop them...won't happen..people are free to start their own groups, registries,etc as they see fit, call it anything and market it without being in breech of the law...while these registries take money & advertise their services they do indeed give the person that paid the money what they advertise....a piece of paper with the dogs name, etc on it.. they lived up to their end as bogus as it may be.

 Message 42 of 52 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamekahluadanesSent: 1/23/2009 3:30 PM
On thing I wanted to add concerning breeding...seeing a CH in front of a dogs name is nice, it does mean the dog looks nice and probably moves pretty well, however imo it really doesn't prove anything else....what else is there? Has this dog proven it is really sound of limb & temperament? When I look at a pedigree I want to see more then a CH it doesn't matter if I am looking for pet only or for a show potential ...if a dog doesn't have sound conformation or sound temperament it is likely it won't hold up to the rigors of being a family pet very well...I want to see more from a dog...CGC, rally, obedience, tracking, agility, herding, carting, field/hunt trials, etc...I want to see dogs that have proven they have stable temperaments  and are capable of going hiking, camping, playing with the kids, doing therapy work, etc..I want to see a well rounded, happy, healthy dog a complete package.
Just an example is the I see many in the show ring that have their CH, but these dogs are conformationally unsound (and many temperamently unsound as well) They may "look" pretty but that's it. If one really reads and understands the breed standard for GSD they would see that these dogs aren't being bred to standard either despite the fact they are winning. (I do know GSD family had them for many years) Ideally a responsible GSD breeder would not only breed for standard and do health testing but would prove their dogs can hold up and not be crippled at an early age or eu because of temperament issues. My families dogs were bred to standard both conformationally as well as temperament. They were reliable family dogs..they alos were very capable of going out and doing their job, herding, all day without break down.

 Message 43 of 52 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameBellaEarpSent: 1/23/2009 11:37 PM
"Poor quality animals are not the solely caused by 'pet' breeders"

No, but a very very very high percentage of them are and that alone should be enough for anyone with a lick of common sense to realize that "pet breeders" absolutely do not have the best interest of the breed at heart by a mile.

Poor quality animals from a TRUE ethical breeder are extremely rare. Poor quality animals from breeders that consider themselves ethical based on their own egos and an inability to recognize their own lack of common sense are high. Problem is, the general public is not usually very good at seeing the difference between the two until they have spent their hearts and money on the wrong one.


 Message 44 of 52 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameDangerousGuardianDragonSent: 1/24/2009 12:18 AM
Thank you so much for all the vital information that you have provided Dale. I will do an in depth research on all.  Since these are questionable registries it definitely needs to be pursued.
I do appreciate every bit of information and advise that you provided.
Again thank you for the great input.

 Message 45 of 52 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamekahluadanesSent: 1/24/2009 2:34 PM
You are welcome.
The info I provided isn't just from limited research or experience, it is from years. It started back when I was just a kid (wow was taht a looooong time ago, lol) my grandfather & great grandfather were very well versed in breeding in horses, GSD, Collies & Shelties. They were stcklers on good solid sound conformation, temperaments and workability. Their teaching spilled over to me...then I started taking my own interest as I got older, into my teens and learned even next step was when I bred Dobermans with a friend of mine back when Dobermans had the reputation that Pit Bulls now have...we researched pedigrees until we were blue, we stuided temperaments, we studied health, genetics, etc..then of course I went to school to be a vet tech (I wanted to be a vet so stuided everything I could get my hands on)Breeding has always been an interest of mine from all I've done several classes on Canine breeding & reproduction, I've talked at length with breeders and even spoken to show judges. As a tech I see many dogs (and cats) bred by irresponsible people and I see all too often the results I also see the results of well bred dogs (and cats).. the two simply can't be compared. I learn more & more as I is ongoing, it is interesting and it is amazing the breeding that people do and the reasons behind some of it.
The bogus registry influx has really abounded in the past few years especially with so many irresponsible breeders cropping up, the advent of the designer dog craze and the increase in suspensions from AKC. These types of registires are nothing more then a sales gimic, a con to make people believe they have a registered dog when the fact is they do not.Often times the dog is not even a purebred despite the buyer being told otherwise. These registries are a big boon to those prople who buy a dog on limited registration & spay/neuter contracts only to decide they want to breed anyway so they "register" them with one of these fly by night registries and happily begin breeding and selling "registered" puppies.
There is a lot of not so nice things that happen in the world of breeding by some of these so called "breeders"..all to often the new owners suffer heartbreak and financial loss, but ultimately it is the dogs/puppies that pay the price.

 Message 46 of 52 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameDangerousGuardianDragonSent: 1/24/2009 3:13 PM
Yes, I came from a Dobe breeding family, my father's show dogs were his life and he to was a stickler for everything being done the right way.
I gained great knowledge from him and the people he associated with and at 14 he gave me the chance to do my first breeding......watching ever move I made, making me study everything, showing his and then criticing everything I did. 
Making me work for hours from cleaning, helping with croppings (including being at the surgery), to studing to perticipating.  Having me sit for hours at shows and watching every breed, their movements, stances & gaits.  When ever I showed, he spent more time telling me what I did incorrectly than correct regards if I place or won in my group.  Praise was something that you had to earn and he wasn't big on giving a lot of that out.  I had to do something majorly well to get, 'Good job'.
And I am still learning after 41 years.  It's thanks to people like yourself and others that broadens my education.  Now with Danes I am starting all over, having them only 11 years I still have much to obsorb.
Please never feel just because I ask a question that I am questioning anyone's experience or knowledge.  I am truly asking for a reason.....that is to better educate myself.
Again thank you.  I know I am not a favorite here, I just believe no matter how long I have been at it there is always something I can learn.......till the day I die.  Hopefully that will not be too I have plans to learn more and more and certainly don't ever want to stop.
My feeling is if you stop learning, regardless of what you already have, you stop living.  I have no intention of doing that.

 Message 47 of 52 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamekahluadanesSent: 1/24/2009 3:39 PM
"My feeling is if you stop learning, regardless of what you already have, you stop living.  I have no intention of doing that."
I couldn't agree with you more. There is always more to learn.
One thing I have found too in regards to dogs there is a lot you can learn in regards to breeding from rescues/shelters. I have done a lot of rescue over the years mostly in Danes but in other breeds/mixes as really shows you a lot of what is not "good" with certain breeding programs.
jmo but I think in order to be a really knowledgable breeder one should spend time volunteering at a rescue/shelter, rescuing or fostering...I think it makes one much more insightful and it helps them improve their breeding program. Even the best of breeders can become kennel blind or complacent with their breeding program..rescue brings you back to reality.

 Message 48 of 52 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameDangerousGuardianDragonSent: 1/24/2009 4:08 PM
Totally agree with you!!! There is no better way to learn is by getting in there an participating.
We had been very involved with on Dane rescue here.  Sadly to say the woman that ran it passed away.  Those of us that either worked there full time, or volunteered in what ever capacity never found out what happen to the animals at the site.  It has always bothered me terribly.  And this has been a few years back.
But your will bring you back to reality real quick.

 Message 49 of 52 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameDangerousGuardianDragonSent: 1/24/2009 4:16 PM
 Sorry for the terribly 'proof reading' on my part.  Grandson had some candy and some of my keys are sticking still just a bit.  Will have to take them off and clean them individual.........LOL.  Got to love them.
Of course I think Zap and others have sloppered on it a few times lately.  I think they do it on delibertatly.

 Message 50 of 52 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamekahluadanesSent: 1/24/2009 4:36 PM
LOL, no worries on the proof reading....when I get typing on this thing who knows how the spelling will come out... in addition to my own mistakes that get missed, I have 2 kittens that love to come and "help" plus Banjo and Zeus like to put in their two cents as well.  Life with pets...wouldn't have it any other way. :)

 Message 51 of 52 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknamekarmel3Sent: 1/27/2009 4:12 AM
Ok.......I think it is safe to respond to Dale now.  I didn't want to interupt an active conversation.
It is obvious that you are far far more experienced in the world of Danes and breeding in general than I am.  I have only been a Dane mom for 18 months- and what an  incredible and exciting 18 months it has been. 
I hope you understand that I was merely  interested in learning more about the whole idea of breeding and perhaps in translation  I came across somewhat jaded. I tend to get a little involved in things I am passionate about  .
I know there are pet breeders out there that should be shot however I am sure there are show breeders out there that should suffer the same fate.  I suppose what it boils down to is the welfare of the dogs and their babes- that would be first and foremost in my mind. 
I have now dealt with a registered CKC show breeder and a non show breeder.  Both are very very different people. However, the one thing they both had in common was the welfare of their dogs.  In both cases all of the dogs were adored and cared for as though they were skin babies.  I suppose I can consider myself fortunate. 
I have concluded that I am not really concerned with the paper work that shows a dogs pedigree and lineage.  I am concerned with the paper work that tells me the dog comes from healthy sound parents with ideal temperments and that the people breeding can back up what they claim.  I am less concerned with the "desired" colour as I am with the wellness of the animal. 
I understand why there are "ideals" in place however, not everyone needs or wants tostrive for them.  I think perhaps we should simply agree to disagree on some points and believe me when I say THANK YOU for the information you provided for me and anyone else reading this thread.  You are a wealth of knowledge.  Thanks again Dale.  Cheers.  Mel and Loki.

 Message 52 of 52 in Discussion 
From: Dragon1Sent: 1/27/2009 8:55 PM
Thank you so much for all the vital information that you have provided Dale.
I will do an in depth research on all. Since these are questionable
registries it definitely needs to be pursued.

Again thank you for the great input.


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