The FSS strikes back
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pear
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 516
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:58 pm Post subject: The FSS strikes back
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- or the Mail having the cookie and eating it:
DNA experts hit back after McCanns challenge 'pathetic' evidence
Last updated at 14:51pm on 19th September 2007
Experts carrying out DNA tests that could hold the key to the Madeleine McCann investigation have hit back at claims the evidence they are analysing is 'pathetic'.
British sources at the Forensic Science Service laboratory in Birmingham say they're confident about the material that was gathered and that they will get accurate results.
They insisted "very few people" know what forensic material has been gathered and say many of those criticising the investigation are basing their arguments on false assumptions.
The experts point, for example, to a claim by the McCanns' supporters that toxicology tests could not have been carried out on hair samples from the couple's hire car because the root was missing. This claim is not factually incorrect.
Lawyers for Kate and Gerry McCann have drawn up a dossier which they claim demolishes the so-called case against them.
And a source close to the family said there were only two pieces of evidence - both of which he described as "pathetic".
Doubts were cast yesterday over samples found in the family's hire car.
It was this material that caused Portuguese police to officially name parents Kate and Gerry McCann as suspects.
But British sources stressed today that despite the failure of officers to seal off the McCanns' apartment, or to secure the car the couple hired three weeks after Madeleine vanished, the scientists working on the case have taken the risks of contamination into account.
They are also said to be fully aware of the similarities in the DNA of Madeleine and her siblings, who were carried in the Renault Scenic along with several other blood relatives.
"The work that has gone on is very thorough and involves a very painstaking process of testing, checking and re-checking," said one person involved in the investigation.
"These people are some of the world's leading forensic scientists and they do not reach their conclusions lightly."
It was revealed today that the new tests are looking for traces of the girl's DNA from material gathered around Praia da Luz, including alleged blood samples found in an apartment close to the one from where she disappeared on 3 May.
The current forensic testing follows the submission of a first batch of results to Portugal two weeks ago by the British experts, which turned the police spotlight on the McCanns.
There has been no official comment on what these forensic results contained, although it is believed the evidence includes samples of Madeleine's bodily fluids and hair from the hire car. Yesterday a source close to the McCanns said DNA could have been transferred there from sweat on the girl's sandals which were transported in the boot.
The McCanns have been forced to remain silent because of strict Portuguese secrecy laws since they were named as suspects over their daughter Madeleine's disappearance.
But the former Government official named as their new spokesman spoke of his belief in them and claimed they were "the innocent victims of a heinous crime".
At the same time, Portuguese sources said detectives were preparing to fly to Britain to hand-deliver a letter asking for fresh action against the McCanns by Leicestershire police.
This is thought to be a request for the couple and their holiday friends to be reinterviewed.
One unconfirmed report claimed that three detectives were already on their way.
In their investigation, Portuguese police are said to be relying on DNA traces found in the McCanns' hire car and the reaction of dogs which allegedly recognised the scent of a corpse.
The DNA traces were described as being between "78 and 99 per cent accurate" and were said to have been found in bodily fluids in the Renault Scenic which the McCanns rented 25 days after Madeleine disappeared on May 3 from the resort of Praia da Luz.
One of the traces was discovered in the car's spare-tyre well - prompting speculation that someone transported Madeleine's body in the car.
Doubts have been raised over the DNA samples found in the car, but experts at the Forensic Science Service laboratory in Birmingham are confident that they will get accurate results. This is despite the failure of the Portugese police to protect this evidence in the weeks after Madeleine went missing
The forensic experts are also fully aware of the similarities in the DNA of Madeleine and her siblings who were carried in the Renault Scenic along with several other blood relatives.
"These people are some of the world's leading forensic scientists and they do not reach their conclusions lightly or without being aware of the possible problems with the material they are testing," said one person involved in the investigation.
However the source close to the McCann family claimed the bodily fluids could have come from one of two places.
He said they could either have come a pair of Madeleine's sweaty flip flops or from the soiled nappies of the two-year-old twins, Sean and Amelie.
"About two months after Madeleine disappeared the McCanns moved house to a villa on the outside of Praia da Luz. Who is to say what happened when they moved?
"The seats were taken out and everything including Madeleine's sandals and the twins' nappies were dumped in the car - which would have included traces of skin, sweat and bodily fluids.
"Bags and bags of stuff was thrown in there - anything could have found its way into the car. DNA could easily have been transferred in such circumstances.
"Also it could have come from a pair of Madeleine's dirty pyjamas which were in the car."
The source said that any DNA evidence found in the hire car is bound to have become contaminated in the two months that the family drove it before it was checked by police.
"I can immediately think of over 30 people that travelled in that car. There were friends, relatives, campaign workers.
"They all would have put their hands on the car, on the doors, boot and inside it. There would be sweat, hair and skin flakes all over the place."
The family source went on to ridicule the evidence that two British police dogs supposedly detected the scent of a corpse on Kate McCann's clothing, Madeleine's soft toy Cuddle Cat, the family's holiday apartment and the hire car.
Similar evidence was recently dismissed as unreliable in a U.S. murder trial.
"There is good legal work being done on the inaccuracy of these dogs. The British police have advised us that the dogs should be used for intelligence gathering and not used evidentially.
"The dogs are not the superb detectives they are cracked up to be."
It can also be revealed that Kate McCann considered the Portuguese evidence to be so flimsy that despite being interviewed for 13 hours by police, it did not occur to her that she could be charged with her daughter's murder.
A friend of the family said: "It hit home when Gerry said, 'What if we are charged?' Kate said, 'What?' Until then she had no idea or realisation of the seriousness of the situation."
The revelations came as the McCanns' new spokesman Clarence Mitchell stood beside the 39-year-old doctors outside their home in Rothley, Leicestershire.
He said: "I spent nearly a full month with Kate and Gerry in Portugal whilst representing the Foreign and Commonwealth Office between May and June - sometimes I was with them for up to 14 hours a day.
"During that time I never saw or heard anything that gave me cause for concern or suspicion.
"All I witnessed was a loving family plunged into the most dreadful situation, and two parents trying to cope amidst their loss.
"To suggest that they somehow harmed Madeleine, accidentally or otherwise, would be laughable if it wasn't so serious."
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Dr_Hamish_McAnus
Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 253
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:06 pm Post subject:
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The fact that Clarence Mitchell thinks he knows these people after only spending ~4 weeks with them is laughable. Well, it'd be laughable if it wasn't so serious.
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jazzlady
Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 35
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:10 pm Post subject:
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Why would they be carrying around M's dirty pyjamas 25 days after the event? If Cuddle cat was wahed why not pyjamas too? Can this be a serious proposition?
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LogicMan
Joined: 07 Jun 2007
Posts: 3530
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:10 pm Post subject:
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This, Is an Amazing piece....... Ludicrously good.
"They insisted "very few people" know what forensic material has been gathered and say many of those criticising the investigation are basing their arguments on false assumptions. "
By implication, if true quote.....this means, that it is the people CRITICISING the Investigation that are basing their arguments on false assumptions......
So those that back the DNA data as it has been reporterd, and support FSS Labs........are Not basing their arguments on false assumptions....
.
_________________
Don't Complain to me.........you need to take it up with the PJ, FSS laboratories and Scotland Yard now......
Long Live The Internet.
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pleasefindmaddie
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Posts: 75
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:11 pm Post subject:
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The current forensic testing follows the submission of a first batch of results to Portugal two weeks ago by the British experts, which turned the police spotlight on the McCanns.
McCanns are attacking the wrong people. Time to kick in the "Bash the British Investigators" campaign.
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dinks
Joined: 02 Jun 2007
Posts: 274
Location: uk
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject:
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Interesting article, the FSS appear to be confident with the results they have, lets see how team M spin this one.
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JennyA
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 361
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject:
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Very interesting article, there, Pear! But I never had any doubt that the evidentiary findings by the FSS were far more damning than we knew about, and/or that were revealed through leaks. And you put that evidence together with the emails and messages they have amongst the Tapas 9, which I believe will show that they knew poor little Maddie was already dead, the inconsistent stories of what happened the day and night of May 3d, etc., and yours truly thinks the PJ are going to have a VERY compelling case against the McScams, and the Tapas 7, on a variety of charges-with Kate being the target-the person who was responsible for poor Maddie's death. People can't wrap their minds around the idea of a nice upper middle class couple - doctors- who loved their children could also harm them, and then participate in a hideous coverup to conceal the body.
There will be Justice with a capital J for Maddie, of that I feel sure-the dead DO speak, they tell their stories through the evidence.
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HAL
Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Posts: 2422
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:24 pm Post subject:
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LM, poor benighted Clarence and his crack team are trying to refute a pig in a poke, lol.
They have no idea what was sent in for testing, where the material really came from, or the painstaking care being taken to ensure that the finest DNA laboratory in the world will turn out the finest, best-documented test results in the world.
Going out to the USA to look for "experts" is futile, IMO. The USA will likely not have the cutting-edge technology, and their out-of-date cases mean nothing in Portugal or the UK.
That dog won't hunt (or sniff, as the case may be).
Nice try, Clancy, but I do hear that Sir Richard doesn't like failures.
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littleconflict
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 37
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:24 pm Post subject:
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There is no retribution for a lost life. we only wish to see proper procedures followed.
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Pussycat
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 807
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:25 pm Post subject:
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The same piece is also appearing on other news websites - it'll be in he printed press tomorrow.
It's about time someone hit back - I can only assume that judging by the language used and the ludicousness of their defense, the close family source spouting all this garbage, must be Aunty Phil. Times was yesterday quoted as saying the seats had been 'ripped' out of the hire car in their haste to move from the apartment to the villa. Pathetic and ludicrous is all I can say
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PJ1
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 303
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:27 pm Post subject:
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I tell you what is ludicrous -
Sweaty feet in flip flops!!!
I don't remember my daughter's feet sweating much at that age.
I certainly don't remember her feet sweating whilst wearing flip flops - plastic shoes yes but flip flops???
More pathetic excuses are coming out. I hope they continue to annoy the PJ, the FSS, the Portuguese Press.
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RedLorryYellowLorry
Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 559
Location: 3rd cave on the left, Tora Bora
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:28 pm Post subject:
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Why do some news media refer to Clarence Mitchell as a close family friend of the McCann's? He's an employee, not a friend.
_________________
"In these matters the only certainty is that nothing is certain."
Gaius Plinius Secundus (23 AD - 79 AD)
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Londonboy
Joined: 01 Aug 2007
Posts: 261
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:29 pm Post subject:
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Surely the M's should be smart enough to not publicly smear the FSS.
If these guys/gals are the best in the world, then smearing them now almost seems like they know what's going to be found, and are already arguing it's validity.
Like yesterday, with the sweaty sandals, used nappies, dirty pj's etc.
Obviously they are getting more desperate, but come on, if this is the best that CM can come up with, no wonder GB let him go.
Like I said yesterday, thankfully the twins aren't teenagers - otherwise that would be 2 more possible ways of DNA ending up in the wheel well we'd have to hear.
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roach
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 137
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:30 pm Post subject:
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"Sweaty feet"
surely they just mean Scottish....slang as in 'sweaty sock' = 'jock'.
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shedman
Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 17
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:34 pm Post subject:
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well glad the FFS are doing such a good job. I work 1 mile away from them, might just go in and give them a pat on the back on the way home... come on
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