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Statement Tables : David Payne Rog
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 Message 1 of 9 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknametin-lizzy  (Original Message)Sent: 2/9/2009 2:10 AM
Person Interviewed: David PAYNE Number of Pages 45
Place of Interview: Force Headquarters, Enderby Signature of Interviewing
Date of Interview: 11.04.08 Officer producing exhibit
Time Commenced: 1026 hours
Time Concluded: 1154 hours Duration of Interview: 89 minutes
Interviewing Officer(s) DC 1485 MESSIAH Tape Reference nos:
Other Persons Present None

Tape counter times Person speaking Text

00:00:04 1485 "Okay, the interview is being video recorded, I’ll make sure it is, yeah, the video, the interview is being video recorded and we are at Leicestershire Police Force, Force Headquarters alright. The date is Friday the eleventh of April two thousand and eight, and I make the time by my watch ten twenty six. My name is DC Ivor MESSIAH and I’m a Detective in the Major Crime Department at Leicestershire Police, alright??BR>Reply "Yes.?BR>1485 "Could you tell me who you are please? Your name, date of birth and where you live.?BR>Reply "Yes, my name’s David PAYNE, my date of birth is fourteenth of the fourth, fifty six, I live in *********** ***
, and I, do you want to know, sorry, what else??BR>1485 "What’s your occupation??BR>Reply "Err I work as a hospital Doctor in err at a Registrar in the Trent Region, currently working in Derby City General Hospital, where I’ve been there for just over a week and then prior to that I was at the Leicester General Hospital, where I’ve been there for err two years.?BR>1485 "Fine, okay. As we explained on the chat before we came into this interview room, this interview is being monitored. There is a colleague in another room that’s watching what’s happening here, he’s acting as my second eyes if you like.?BR>Reply "Yeah.?BR>1485 "And second ears, if there’s anything I’ve missed you know it’ll be brought to my attention. Equally the Detective Superintendent will also monitor during the course of today, alright??BR>Reply "Right.?BR>00:01:44 1485 "Are you happy to continue knowing that this interview is being recorded??BR>Reply "I’m happy to continue.?BR>1485 "Okay, and subsequently at the end of this interview it may be that a statement is produced probably later on in the day regarding this interview, okay??BR>Reply "That’s alright, yes.?BR>1485 "As I say as I explained as well there may be lots of duplication during this interview, it may be quite tedious because you know you’ll have answered it eleven months ago, equally your mind will be quite hazy I’m sure, the sequence of events you know you were interviewed by the Portuguese early doors.?BR>Reply "Yes.?BR>1485 "Last May, and your answers may not be parallel to what you spoke to them about, don’t worry about it, you know it’s passage of time but all I’m asking you to do is to try and recall as much as you can, the days leading up to Madeleine MCCANN’S disappearance because that’s what we’re here to investigate and at the end of the day you are our witnesses, you’re not a suspect you are our witnesses, do you understand that??BR>Reply "I do, yes.?BR>00:02:52 1485 "Okay, David, just tell me a bit about yourself, a bit about your family, you’re obviously married to Fiona PAYNE, you’ve told me where you live, just tell me a bit about yourself and her.?BR>Reply "Okay, err as I say we have two children, err Lily and Scarlet, err Lily will be err four in August, Scarlet’s nearly two. Err as I say we both work as hospital Doctors err we both, err myself and Fiona trained in Leicester err where we graduated from err we both, we met when we were at Medical School and err yeah on the whole we’ve worked in the Leicestershire err region. Err you know we’re both very happy, err…?BR>1485 "How old are your children sorry? Did you say…?BR>Reply "Err yes Scarlet will be two in May and Lily will be four in August.?BR>1485 "And how long you been married??BR>Reply "Err we were married since two thousand and three.?BR>1485 "Two thousand and three??BR>Reply "Yes.?BR>1485 "Okay. Tell me about your social circle.?BR>Reply "Okay, err you know, when we got married, we actually got married in Italy and the majority of friends of ours unfortunately, or fortunately, are in the medical profession, I think it’s the way it works with the hours and err yeah the nature of the job and exams etcetera, like you tend to socialise quite a lot with medical people. Err obviously the, you know the group who went to Portugal, Russell, err who I knew through, he was in my year at medical school, err subsequently obviously I knew Jane through Russell. Err in terms of Kate and Gerry, we knew, Fiona had worked with Kate and that’s how I got to know Kate and Gerry, err you know we have probably a, just a, not a tight band of friends but you know its generally the same people, so the people who went, you know a lot of people came our wedding in Italy, who we subsequently had perhaps been on holiday with but we still stay in touch with. Err and if we socialise with anyone then it tends to be the same, same groups of, same group of people, the majority of them medical, obviously apart from Jane and Rachael of course.?BR>00:05:31 1485 "Is everybody locally based??BR>Reply "Err I mean, err obviously Kate and Gerry being in Leicestershire, Russell and Jane were in the Leicestershire region as well up until last year when they moved err to Exeter. Err and then Matt and Rachael, they also you know were originally in Leicestershire and they’ve moved down err working in London. Err but, you know, other friends we have, you know we have friends dotted around the country err but you know those are the main.?BR>1485 "The main.?BR>Reply "Yeah.?BR>1485 "Okay. Moving on to Portugal, the holiday last year, the holiday started twenty eighth of April and was due to finish the fifth of May I believe. It’s my understanding that you did, you were instrumental really in the arranging.?BR>Reply "Yes.?BR>1485 "The co-ordination of the holiday.?BR>Reply "That’s correct.?BR>00:06:37 1485 "What I want you to do now is, don’t assume I know anything, okay.?BR>Reply "Right.?BR>1485 "Just imagine that you haven’t spoke to anybody in Portugal about this and tell me in the beginning how it all come to happen, in other words who first decided it was going to be Portugal, and then subsequently what happened up until the day that you went away.?BR>Reply "Okay. Err it’s a long winded answer.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "I mean when we first, err you know the first kind of concept of a group holiday if you like, was when you know we went to Italy for our wedding where we actually stayed, you know we had all of the guests staying there err for that weekend, and you know, I know they all say your wedding’s the best, one of the best days in your life but it was just absolutely fantastic. We had children staying there and it was just such a great occasion with, with everyone around and you know everyone came and said what a fantastic, you know, time that they’d had err so you know that was the kind of, if you like, the beginnings of that, that concept of you know a group holiday err we then subsequently err you know we did have holidays with other people, you know we went away with Kate and Gerry and other friends err to Majorca and again you know although it was very hard, you know we’d had difficulties with you know with our child just sleeping wise and you know it’s hard work but still you appreciated the fact that there’s a group of you there and we subsequently had been away with err Russell, Jane, and Matt and Rachael err on another group holiday err the year after that, and then so we’d always been looking you know to do the same things, it is much easier when you have a group of children you know they interact together and you know it’s great for the parents and you’re all at a similar stage in life with the way that they’re growing up and you know so we were always looking to continue that yearly err holiday, and you know we knew that Kate and Gerry had met Russell and Jane and so you know, like with the wedding, so all the people had you know a reasonable relationship before err we’d gone away to Portugal. So you know we were just looking to continue that err last year. Err we’d all, or certainly we’d been on a Mark Warner before, I think Matt and Rachael and Russell and Jane had been on a Mark Warner type holiday and you know so we were looking to go on that type of holiday where we had err all the amenities that Mark Warner had to offer so they’ve got you know the sporting facilities, they’ve got the crèche facilities for the children and you know so that, that kind of holiday was what we were looking for. Err I’m trying to remember when we first chatted about you know going on the holiday. I mean I can only remember really that we were trying to arrange it probably two or three months err prior to us actually booking the holiday and err but probably we’d been chatting it I’m sure before, it may well have been before Christmas. Err you know I’d looked on the internet at you know what the availability was in different err locations and Portugal was the only err Mark Warner holiday that would offer err you know a holiday at that time of the year. Err so you know we were hoping that the weather would be fine and Portugal was a reasonable distance for taking children on the plane so we, you know, we settled on, on t hat holiday. Err over the weeks there was quite a lot of discussion about going away, you know, on the Mark Warner holiday err the, you know we, it got to the stage of booking it and then there had been some questioning about the err you know the fact that it wasn’t the kind of (inaudible) same holiday as you know other Mark Warner’s err you know and you know could they guarantee that we would all be together in err you know the apartments and I’d had quite a discussion with Mark Warner you know email wise just to make, try and make sure that we were guaranteed err together.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>00:10:59 Reply "And the rationale for that was just that we would you know it’s just easier if you are all in the same lot, you know you can go next door and you know, just from the children’s point of view you know we would all be segregated if you like. Err and then obviously there was the discovery that that wasn’t the same, it wasn’t you know the same self contain but err yeah there was similar facilities available. Err I think, yeah so sorry as I was say just to reinforce you know I quite a lot of correspondence with Mark Warner regarding that and the rest of the group. Err I think when you, when you’re booking a holiday like this you know I quite enjoy err sorting it out for everybody and err feel some, you know it makes me feel good about myself if I’ve managed to arrange it for everybody and taken the hard work out of it and you know I ended up organising our wedding because Fiona had got her exams, and it was the same thing you know a lot of people enjoyed themselves, I wanted to try and do the same thing, make it easier for everybody, and err yeah I know that err again there’d been some concern from Kate and Gerry that they wanted to go away on that, both err parties weren’t a hundred percent you know sure on that type of holiday. I can’t say exactly you know what the reasons, I can’t remember and from that point of view but in the end you know we just thought oh it’s a great holiday there’s, everybody knows everybody and that we would have a very good time there. There was err you know some discussion about where we would fly from and who would fly with who and whether we take the Mark Warner flights and from that point of view we err originally, we eventually settled on that you know we would fly out from East Midlands with Kate and Gerry because the timing of the flights was, was perfect, it wasn’t too early in the morning you know so we don’t have to go at some ridiculous hour, we don’t want to arrive there with kids err tired, and err so you know we, we, err myself, Fiona and Lily and Scarlet then flew out with err Kate and Gerry, Sean, Amelie and Madeleine, and err you know that was basically how we ended up booking the holiday and arriving there.?BR>00:13:15 1485 "Okay. I’ll just go back to a few things what you’ve said, who did you book the holiday with??BR>Reply "Err the, I mean we booked it directly through Mark Warner.?BR>1485 "Right.?BR>Reply "Err and the ladies that I dealt a lot with and I have, yeah I’ve got the email, I’ve actually got the document with all the err you know the email correspondence I had, I think it was, the main lady was a lady called Jasminder MING but you know there was other people that I dealt with booking it, but she was the central figure err that helped us in dealing with.?BR>1485 "Right, and you say that Kate and Gerry initially weren’t that keen because of, what is it they weren’t keen about??BR>Reply "Well, say from, you know, from recollections and obviously we have discussed you know the situation since.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "Err was that you know Kate had got an uneasy feeling, that’s all you know, has come back to her and I remember you know again, whether this is something that’s subsequently I feel has happened be, you know before the event, but you know Fiona had certainly mentioned it err that you know Kate wasn’t quite you know, didn’t feel quite easy about it but there was no explanation that I could give you or you know even subsequently err in discussions that you know there wasn’t one thing. Kate, err I think Gerry’s very, he’s very enthusiastic and I think he’s you know, you see the way that he’s conducted himself you know over the last few months, he’s a very sorted person, a very dynamic person you know he was all you know, don’t worry you know it’ll be fine and everything…?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "Will work its way out and you know whether it be the logistics of the situation that err Kate was more concerned about you know I really couldn’t answer that question.?BR>1485 "Mm, so just so I’ve got it straight in my head, did the, the concern from Kate materialise with Fiona since or did it come out in the period that the holiday was booked??BR>00:15:19 Reply "I, in my mind there was some concern before the holiday but I find it very difficult to separate whether this is just something which is implanted since we’ve discussed after err Madeleine’s disappearance.?BR>1485 "Right.?BR>Reply "I can’t, I couldn’t a hundred percent say that in certainty.?BR>1485 "Okay, and there was some discussion between yourself and Mark Warner regarding the rooms.?BR>Reply "Yes.?BR>1485 "You say you needed the rooms for together??BR>Reply "Yes.?BR>1485 "What took, what sort of conversations took place??BR>Reply "Err basically when, you know prior to the booking err Mark Warner had err he said oh yes it’s, you know don’t worry we can make sure that all the apartments are together and err then subsequently after booking I then you know, I, obviously it was just something that was very you know because we knew there was some difficulties geographically that you know you could be split out over quite a distance on the actual Mark Warner site. Well that would have impacted, we felt you know quite heavily on the holiday if we’d have you know one couple were, you know, completely out on the limb and everyone else was together so when I’d mentioned this again you know just to, just to err you know, confirm that that would be the situation, that we’d be all together they, the reply was I’m afraid we can’t actually guarantee that you will all be together because this is not solely a Mark Warner err set up you know so unfortunately we are slightly err at the vagaries of the Ocean Club about where couples will be but we’ll do our utmost to make sure that you are you know together. So err yeah so that’s generally the way that the, err the conversation or the email correspondence went. Err I, you know there was other things that were slightly different you know obviously from the childcare you know point of view. They had the, you know they had the listening service that they have, you know at the other Mark Warner venues that we’d been on, and err you know that was part, you know that was the concept again that we were buying in to the Mark Warner and you know when we went out there that was partly, so again there was some correspondence we had with them just you know, just checking what, what was available in terms of the dinners as well, err Mark Warner’s are generally I think half, you know half board and that wasn’t on offer so there’s some differences with Mark, that, that particular err venue compared with the other Mark Warner’s that the, that the couples I’ve already mentioned had been on previously.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>00:18:00 Reply "And err you know just for the record, embarrassingly or as it turns out now in err retrospect you know it’s a small change but you know the Mark Warner had also advertised that you know they were gonna discount the holiday by ten percent you know not long after we booked, which slightly irritated me, given the fact that we booked it and then he said well actually we don’t have this, we don’t have this, so I’d had correspondence probably being a bit cheeky just to say what, what, you know you can knock us ten percent off as well and they gave us some discount, which you know looking back just seems, you know, ridiculous.?BR>1485 "Yeah, in the scale of things. Why specifically was it the Ocean Club??BR>Reply "Err I mean as I say, we, we bought into the concept of a group holiday, we bought into the concept of Mark Warner, we’d all you know, apart from Kate and Gerry I don’t think they’d done Mark Warner, but you know we’d certainly been on that type of holiday before, and as I you know recall they were the only Mark Warner resort that was open at that time of the year. I don’t think Egypt was you know available at that time of year, I don’t think err Turkey was available and certainly Greece, so I think at that particular moment in time it was just that Portugal was the only one that opened that early in the season.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "And it just fitted in with our timings, we felt, you know, obviously you go away, you want it to be a bit warmer and you know we thought that Portugal would be ideal.?BR>1485 "Right. You’ve touched on, about the listening service that you say that Mark Warner supply. What did you understand about their listening service? What did it actually do??BR>Reply "Err I mean traditionally the, the other resorts they’ll have a listening service and what that involves is that, you know, if you’re staying on a Mark Warner err resort they will, you know if you ask for this listening service, the parents can go and have their evening meal and you will supply the details of which you know is your accommodation and they will go and listen outside the room of each of the err you know the rooms, just to check whether the baby’s crying or there’s, you know there seems to be any problem and you know that was obviously what we were hoping for err there as well. You know we realised that that wasn’t err what they offered err in Portugal and we knew that they did have err a drop-in err crèche for the evenings, you know I cannot, you know I cannot tell you what the times were err that you can leave them but you know we all felt you know that we were going there in, with the mindset that you know we, we you know we could do the if you like the listening outside the door but you know we actually went into rooms or the other couples did and you know do it more frequently and that we were offering exactly the same as what Mark Warner did and the rest of their resort but we were just applying it to Portugal where they didn’t offer that service. Err you know the, the, yeah, so that was really…?BR>00:21:10 1485 "Yeah, and over what frequency did you understand that they would have done the listening service??BR>Reply "I mean in, at the other resorts that we’ve been to err I believe they do it every thirty minutes err you know as I say we actually haven’t used that service when we’ve been but you know the friends who have they’ve, they’ve said it’s around thirty minutes.?BR>1485 "Yeah, and did the group, were the group aware that that was the listening service’s, well that’s what was available within the listening service? Was…?BR>Reply "I, I would be pretty sure that most people before they went away knew, its the kind of thing that I’d be a bit anal about, that oh crikey or they don’t offer this and oh you know they said that they ‘d got this and its not available and I would, you know I’d have seen it as my responsibility again, I haven’t actually checked through the emails, you know obviously some of it may have been on phone calls, to actually validate that but I’d be pretty sure that everyone was aware that we would be going knowing exactly what the circumstances were, and I think, I suppose for my mindset, the main thing for me was that we were all, everyone was together as a group you know the locality of the, sort of the vicinity of the rooms was, was close enough to make everything as easy as possible, you know from, from all perspectives, whether it be during the day or, or during the evening.?BR>00:22:37 1485 "Yeah, okay. So you’ve stopped your recall at the flights, so you get to the airport, airport went okay??BR>Reply "Yeah.?BR>1485 "Because you said that you flew with Gerry, Kate and Gerry.?BR>Reply "We did, yes.?BR>1485 "And…?BR>Reply "Yeah we had err you know a very good flight err from my, I can remember it wasn’t err, it was, the flight was about nine in the morning, nine, nine thirty. Err everyone you know seemed, it seemed to go without any event, we didn’t remember it as one of the worst flights we’d ever had going, I couldn’t say that about some of the other flights that we’ve been on so the kids you know I’m sure they’d, you know it was very easy you know they’d all behaved themselves and there’s as least hassle as possible err you know everyone’s excited, it’s you know that time of the year you’re all looking forward and err Lily you know and Madeleine you know had met many times before and you know they were happy to be together err I can remember you know them holding hands and you know getting on the plane and we’ve got the video footage on the, you know on the err phone of that you know when Madeleine, you know, slipped and banged her leg. Err you know it was as I say a very straight forward flight, got there with minimal hassle err at some stage you know there was some text messages with the rest of the group they’d you know already arrived before us. Err you know we were met by, err you know Gerry had organised err the taxi side of it err over in err Portugal, you know it had been my responsibility to sort out the Mark Warner and everything and Gerry had err had you know err paid for the flight and he’d sorted the taxis out over there. Err you know the being concerned about the child seats in the taxi but you know we were all relatively happy err going to the resort, it just all seemed very straight forward, very seamless, err you know we were, as I say there was, there was just no problems that you really could recall at that stage, it was very straight forward.?BR>00:25:01 1485 "During the flight did Kate refer to her concerns again??BR>Reply "No, no I mean err you know she, I think to play on that particular aspect of like how worried she was about going away would probably be over cooking it really, overstating the case. Err you know Kate is a, you know is a very optimistic person and you know once she’d made the decision you know went with it and you know Kate very happy to be there and part of the group and certainly didn’t voice any concerns going over there.?BR>1485 "Okay. The rest of the group, sorry, in your group, in your flight…?BR>Reply "Yes.?BR>1485 "Was yourself.?BR>Reply "Yes.?BR>1485 "Fiona.?BR>Reply "Yes.?BR>1485 "Your two children.?BR>Reply "That’s correct.?BR>1485 "Dianne??BR>Reply "Err yes Dianne, yes.?BR>1485 "Kate, Gerry, Amelie.?BR>Reply "Yeah.?BR>1485 "Madeleine and Sean.?BR>Reply "That’s correct.?BR>1485 "Yeah, and you flew from East Midlands??BR>Reply "That’s correct.?BR>1485 "The others, where did the others fly from??BR>Reply "Err the others flew from, I think it was Heathrow, I’m not a hundred percent sure, Heathrow or Gatwick, but err you know they, I think they’d, they’d gone with a Mark Warner flight which was supplied with the, as I say the Heathrow or Gatwick, and so they’d gone at any earlier flight but I think you know it was err you know a cheaper option. We ended up paying extra money than, you know, want for the flight times which were more appropriate and not having to travel down err to London, but we felt that was more you know as I say better for the children, they’d get a longer sleep plus we didn’t have to pay for car parks down in London and petrol etcetera so err but I cannot, I’m not a hundred percent sure whether it’s Heathrow or Gatwick, sorry.?BR>

First  Previous  6-9 of 9  Next  Last 
 Message 6 of 9 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknametin-lizzySent: 2/9/2009 2:25 AM
00:44:18 1485 "Okay, and when you finished, I’m just trying to put this in order here, when you actually, when you finished and you went back to the apartment, did you say anything to Gerry about, about the fact that his family were fine? Or…?BR>Reply "Yeah, err yeah, I haven’t mentioned this before, but yes, yeah I’d certainly, when we met up I said oh yeah, you know everything’s fine there, you know probably along the lines of you know you’ve got a bit more of a free pass you know you can carry on for a bit longer, Kate’s fine without everyone you know all the children are, are happy, there’s no difficulties with bath time or anything so you know, without actually saying all that just conveying to him that you know I don’t think you need to err rush back, you’ve got a free pass for a bit longer.?BR>1485 "Alright.?BR>Reply "Err yeah.?BR>1485 "So was that as soon as you got back to the, to the tennis courts??BR>Reply "Yeah that would have been when we got back.?BR>1485 "When you got back to the tennis courts as opposed to at the end of the tennis session.?BR>Reply "Yeah, yeah, yeah.?BR>1485 "Okay, and was he fine with that??BR>Reply "Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, again, you know it’s difficult with cameras and everything, you don’t want to sound (inaudible) or anything, but you know he’s a very sorted person, a very caring person and that’s the kind of thing, you know he’s very organised.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "And you know he will make sure everything’s fine and sorted before you know the, the, he’d carry on and do something for his own benefit if you like. So you know he was certainly one to, he would have wanted to know before you know continuing.?BR>00:45:45 1485 "Okay. We’ve talked, you’ve talked about you know, you’ve gone back and you’ve got ready and Fiona’s gone for a run. I’ll move on to, you know, the time that, because you’d already discussed about going, leaving the apartment, the, you know, the situation how you’d left your doors and you know.?BR>Reply "Mm, yes.?BR>1485 "The intercom and all the rest of it. I’m just gonna move on to when you actually got to the Tapas, you said that you passed Matt on the way down.?BR>Reply "Mm.?BR>1485 "Whereabouts did you pass him??BR>Reply "Err…?BR>1485 "Can you mark, just…?BR>Reply "Yeah, the err where’s, this is the entrance here into the Tapas area.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "Err my recollection was that we were just got, you know we were round there, I thought we’d actually entered into the Tapas bar to just…?BR>1485 "Actually into the complex??BR>Reply "Just, just into the complex, but certainly we hadn’t made it yet to the swimming pool but it was just, just about there.?BR>1485 "Okay.?BR>Reply "Err yeah.?BR>00:46:42 1485 "And what time do you think that was??BR>Reply "Err we were, we were just before nine, you know just before nine o?clock err we yeah we went between quarter to and nine o?clock.?BR>1485 "And then you sat down, after the comments of course that you…?BR>Reply "Yes, yeah.?BR>1485 "Who was there when you got, when you got to the table??BR>Reply "Err well, as I say, Gerry was sat next to me, err on my left, and then there was this choice of where Dianne was gonna sit with err, err Matt and err Russell, so those people had to be there, Kate was obviously there, Fiona had walked down with, as well, and err and as for Rachael and Jane I, I cannot say a hundred percent that they were there.?BR>1485 "What was Gerry doing when you got there??BR>Reply "Err I, again my recollection is we sat down and I just started talking to him, but I’m not sure whether that is entirely correct, whether he was having a conversation with somebody else before and then you know I just started talking but my recollection we started, you know, not far after we’d sat down we just started talking and you know, and I say we were just saying, you know what we’d both done and what a fantastic day that we’d had err you know and I know beyond the call of this interview but you know I’d had a lot of stress you know with work and over the last few years and you know it’s, it’s you know two, two young children it’s not been a particularly easy time and you know and for me that was the first day in many, many a month that I’d really enjoyed it and then Gerry had reciprocated and said we also had one of the best days that we’d had in many, many a month. You know that is my recollection of the first thing that happened on that table, but just, whether its because it was such a positive conversation that we’d had, which override the fact that there was other things that had happened before I wouldn’t like to say but in my mind that was the first thing that had happened.?BR>1485 "Yeah. So did you notice that he got up to go and check Madeleine, or to check his children??BR>00:49:10 Reply "Yeah, I mean I, you know I know the people who left the table but I couldn’t tell you what order they left in and I couldn’t tell you what the time is that they left. You know, people have chatted about it, you know we’ve read about it and I’m not prepared to say well I think this is what happened because I’m sure my view’s been tainted by, you know, what we’ve read and what we’ve seen.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "Err but you know I’m, you know it’s, I knew that Russell, you know had had problems because Evie had been ill and he, you know, had left the table you know for err, err quite a few minutes because you know he was having to, you know he came back saying oh he’s had to clean the sheets and she’d been sick and everything and then there was the issue of the err them bringing out his food and they had to re-cook him, you know another meal and then Jane had quickly eaten her meal you know so that she could then leave the table so those things you know, I’m sure, you know, I know happened and unfortunately I can’t be any more helpful in saying this was the time, this is how long they were gone for. Err yeah I know that Gerry left the table, you know, I can remember him, I remember him coming back to say well you know, he wasn’t left, you know he didn’t leave at you know an unreasonable amount of time, it didn’t seem that he was away for particularly long, you know he did make some comment, which I know that if someone else was hearing as a group had said yeah, I’ll say yeah you know that’s what he said, but I can’t remember err entirely, but err you know, the, the conversation at the table in terms of other people leaving and looking at the children was along the lines of you know that it, and again it transpired later that I, that other people were look, you know were popping in as an extra addition to what other people were generally doing in terms of looking after the err children and err you know when Matt came back I remember him saying to somebody oh yeah I’ve looked at, you know and they’re fine you know and that was the way that the other families were, were working it. Err so, you know, apart from Russell who was away a little bit longer because you know what I’ve just explained before, everyone tended to walk up there, then walk back in a time which you would expect them to walk, walk up to the apartment and you know there was no long gaps between anything which you know wasn’t you know explained. Err, so yeah.?BR>00:51:35 1485 "Do you recall Gerry coming back from his turn and then commenting about speaking to Gez??BR>Reply "Err I, you know again, I think I do, and I know that sounds very vague but you know again, just on the context of you know what, what’s been said about the conversation with Gez and this is a very important part of the story, it’s just difficult to say what you, you know what you believe to have happened and what you’ve read has happened.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "But I, you know I do remember some, something along the lines that he’d had a conversation err with Gez but again you know if you’re chatting to someone else and you just perhaps hear something at, at the side, err or you just look up and listen to a bit and then you move onto the conversation.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "Err but some, yeah.?BR>1485 "Do you recall Jane coming back from her trip? From her visit if you like, shortly after Gerry had come back.?BR>Reply "I don’t know.?BR>00:52:39 1485 "And is there anything that sticks in your mind in relation to what anybody’s said when they’d come, apart from the one or two people saying everything’s fine, was there anything else that you can think of that anybody said anything??BR>Reply "Err I mean there was nothing you know, I mean, I mean when obviously Russell came back and explained what had gone on and you know with, with Evie, err Matt, you know, had come back and you know said everything’s fine. Err Gerry, you know I, as I say, I think he, I heard him mention that he’d spoken to someone on the way back and I’m not sure if people triggered my memory of that I could get that, that’s it. When Jane came back there was certainly nothing that she said that err you know led us to be worried at that particular stage, you know, the conversation was, was again, was you know oh Evie’s okay and it was a sort of shame that they you know, the situation there with Evie. Err and you know the, the jokes that have been going on earlier and err you know just, yeah generally nothing, nothing really stood out...?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "Had happened, err there was, you know nothing.?BR>00:54:03 1485 "The fact that Jane had come back having seen a male carrying a child.?BR>Reply "Mm.?BR>1485 "Could you introduce that within your recollection??BR>Reply "I can, err it was never mentioned at that table when she came back, err when we went, you know, looking for Madeleine after err Fiona told me that she’d, you know, mentioned this to Fiona and you know so it’s, obviously Fiona’s statement’s probably more important from this point of view exactly what she said about it.?BR>1485 "Yeah, yeah.?BR>Reply "But I know from Fiona that this was mentioned and I think it was in the context that she was really worried saying anything to Kate to, to upset her which you know looking from, from people observing out, in at this, they’ll probably think well hang on, you think that someone’s just seen, but you know, again, it was a, a resort where there was a lot of children around err very, it’s a small friendly place and she just thought it was one of the parents who you know was perhaps, you know they’d be staying in one apartment and were transferring their child back to another apartment.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "And really didn’t think twice about it at the time and that’s why it wasn’t mentioned then. But she definitely mentioned it to me you know after Madeleine had been abducted and you know on the, the following day before she’d actually mentioned it to Kate and there was a, a newspaper report, I think it was in the Telegraph err certainly one of the newspapers anyway, that was sort of describing err Madeleine’s pyjamas and, and err Jane said that’s not right, how did they get that, well she said you know, that in, I don’t know how they get that information anyway, my recollections were this was what she was wearing and described it you know differently you know to what the, the, the press had, and that was before she’d even seen Kate so you know, the strength of that argument is just absolutely overwhelming, you know given the time frame err you know of when Madeleine must have gone, gone, that you know and for her to have described in detail the pull ups at the bottom of the pyjamas err you know the colours, you know and the timing is just, you know well, so.?BR>00:56:37 1485 "How did she describe the child to you??BR>Reply "Err, the, from, again my, my recollection was more about the, the description of the pyjamas not fitting in with the description of the newspaper and if I was to say that she was carrying the child you know like this, rather than like, like that then, you know because again this is something that we’ve talked about, you know, if she was abducted, you know, sorry if you were carrying your own child any distance, to actually carry a child like so is, it’s hard work. You know, it’s much easier to carry a child like this and it’s easier to keep them asleep and support their head etcetera. So yeah that’s something we’ve chatted about since and you know I could say oh yes I’m a hundred percent sure she said that, that they were carrying the child like that, but I, again, I wouldn’t be, be accurate. All I can say is accurately I remember there was a, the err the discrepancy with the pyjamas and that, you know, and then she kept coming back to the turn ups which you know, which is very unique about the err you know, the pyjamas so that was, you know, you’re in shock, you can’t believe what’s happened, you know, you’re, you’re ninety nine, point nine, nine, nine percent sure that this is what’s happened but you’re still not wanting to believe what’s happened.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "But you know and then you’re looking for information to, to try and fit in with what you thinks happened and then you know when, when we knew that we just thought, you know, that is it, that is who’s taken her. Err you know and again, just for the record, I mean Jane, I’ve known Jane for a few years, you know, she’s an extremely strong character, she’s you know very reliable and you know she speaks her own mind and you know, and if that’s what she has seen then you know I’m a hundred percent sure that that’s what she’s seen.?BR>00:58:41 1485 "Okay. Just in relation to, the reason why I ask you that is because Jane has saw what she’s saw and then she’s come back to the table and then you know one of the points I was trying to raise with you as well was did you notice anything different in her demeanour throughout the rest of the evening before Kate raised the alarm??BR>Reply "Err not, not really I mean, as I say my general feeling was about the problems that they were having you know, it’s difficult, you know err one of them was there and then the other one was going and err you know just the logistics of the situation, you know where I was actually sat, I wasn’t directly sat in a position that I was probably gonna chat to Jane therefore you know, the people who were immediately round me were the people more likely I’d chat to rather than chatting across, you know, quite a reasonable size table. Err so I don’t, you know I don’t really think, you know I, I noticed anything different about Jane but whether, you know, there was or there wasn’t perhaps I wasn’t in the best position there to, to comment that, as I say my recollections were more of the logistics, apart from with Evie not being well.?BR>1485 "Yeah. Right, and again you’ve discussed what happened once Kate had turned up and the exact words that Kate had said.?BR>Reply "Mm.?BR>1485 "Once the alarm had been raised you said that you all got up and its, with the exception of Dianne, everybody ran to the assistance.?BR>Reply "Yeah.?BR>1485 "Exactly what did you do??BR>Reply "Err we, you know, we ran up err to the apartment, you know, with, with err you know Kate and Gerry err and you know for me, I just wanted to know, as I say, about the access to the apartment, were those gates open, err because in my mind was that if the front door was shut there was no, you know there won’t be, you know there was no way that she could have wandered out that way and nor would they have gained access in that way. Err also obviously the, the, the issue with the, the shutters had been raised, was brought up err you know on the way up as well and then I was asking about the gates being shut at that back and she said well both gates you know were shut, so in my mind, you know, that had ruled it out that Madeleine had err had wandered off. Err you know, Madeleine’s err, you know, was a very bright child and you know it would just seem so inconceivable that she would have wandered off you know, especially you know, when she was sleepy you know, we put that argument forward, but then you know sleeping chil, sleepy children you know don’t put, shut the doors you know behind them and child gates, you know, so, so that was my initial thoughts err and again you know we, we, I’m sure we went into the apartment, just looked and you know, incredulously you know well where, err where could she be, you know, you know we just looked in the obvious err places and then err you know obviously Kate and Gerry were just completely, you know, hysterical err you know at this stage. Err and then we just, you know then we went to do the sweeps around the place and I said, as I said before, I went up to look at our apartment to check, check the girls were alright and you know, and the actual order that this all happened, you know, it’s just err a complete eye opener up for us to see you know what other unfor, unfortunate people have been through just to what a destabilising effect, you know, that circumstances has on you or, and you know I, I think most people had a, you know, idea of, pretty exactly what happened that day leaving but you know after that I think people find it really difficult generally to say exactly what they did and when. Err but as I say we went err we went to the apartment and had a look round and then err I had a look quite earlier on to see err whether the, err girls were alright. I then at some stage went back to see Dianne and say look can you just leave the table, just go back to the apartment and then I had the sweep around the swimming pool where the, err the kiddies pool is, I went to, I just had a quick look at the tennis courts and just basically swept around the, the area just to make, make sure you know that, ah this can’t, can’t be what’s happened, she must have you know, you just don’t want to weigh up that option, it just wasn’t an option that could have happened but you knew it had happened and err, and then as I say we spoke, me, Matt and Russell, right come on we’ve got to have a bit more structure to this, err you know, I’ll, I’ll you know so he went off down to the Police Station and you know, you know we waited as I say for the Police to arrive and we, our, I think it was in between them arriving or when they arrived that I then went down and did that sweep of you know, right down past the Supermarket err going slightly to the side and then onto the front past where the church is at the bottom. I looked, you know I say I looked in all the rocks and you know just went along the whole beach shouting out and identifying people. Err the, I say, the Mark Warner people they were around there, we, you know as I say we also at a very early stage we knew it was important that we got a picture of Madeleine just to show people, whether it be local, but, but we were also imploring the err the GNR to you know close down and circulate this picture, err and that was, you know that was something that Mark Warner team helped us set up just in the, you know the Tapas bit there.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>01:04:57 Reply "Err then we were popping in and out of the apartment err you know having conversations with Kate and Gerry and err you know they were in communication with people back home err you know Gerry was you know speaking to family, they were chatting to err Paul’s the priest who married them and Kate was chatting to her mum you know err and it was just all kicking off around really.?BR>1485 "You know when you went into their apartment, what was the scene like? I mean where was Kate and Gerry??BR>Reply "Err (sighs) I mean with, with err, you know I, Kate’s obviously very good friends with err Fiona and I’m, you know, very good friends with Gerry so more likely I’d have probably been with Gerry going through the options of what happened, or you know where could she be and what, what’s gone on here. Err you know trying to work out err what had actually happened err so I, I, you know we all went up to the apartment pretty much together. I think, I don’t know what, whether the other people came in or not, I can only remember me, Fiona, Kate and Gerry predominantly and the err lady from Mark Warner err who were the main people who were in the apartment. Err yeah I certainly went into err the doorway of that, the room where all the children were staying you know and Sean and Amelie were still you know sleeping, err you know and this is something that’s, you know, we’ve all kind of discussed you know amongst all the melee that was kicking off they were just sleeping so, you know, contently. Err and then you know the other area, the other areas I remember going into Kate and Gerry’s err bedroom with Gerry and he’d perhaps you know fling a cupboard open and just have a look and, ah you know and just shut the door and you know in a vein, desperate hope that she might have been err you know in, in the wardrobe or something, and then he, you know flung him, flung himself on the floor and just you know kicking the floor and just with, you know, she’s gone, she’s gone, err and then as I say, I, I, after that I can’t really say exactly, you know. We kept meeting up at stages in the evening to, to try and appraise the situation and you know what shall we do, err.?BR>01:07:44 1485 "Did you hear Kate say to Gerry they’ve let her down??BR>Reply "Err, it’s a comment that I’ve heard her say since and you know, I can’t say that I specifically heard her say it that night. Err but you know, so many emotions are flying through your mind at that stage and you know certainly guilt was going through you know their mind, err because it, you know, everyone was like questioning themselves, you know, about you know what had happened and you know I know that she certainly was, those comments that she made along the lines of guilt for err you know, you know not being there for her, without a doubt, but specifically that phrase I wouldn’t, you know I can’t recall her saying that but again, it’s just a general underlying you know nature of what she was saying but it was along the lines that she, you know she had let her down, that you know when she, err again whether it was that night or another night she said well you know when she needed us we weren’t there for her, you know and that was, you know the general kind of things that she was implying.?BR>1485 "Yeah, did she say that on the night then??BR>01:09:04 Reply "Err I say I don’t know, I know that she said those things.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "Or implied those things but I can’t tell you exactly what the phrases were that she used but you know she felt that they weren’t there for the biggest time in her life when they needed her.?BR>1485 "Yeah. Did Fiona tell you that Kate had told her that Madeleine had woke up the night before??BR>Reply "Yeah.?BR>1485 "On that night??BR>Reply "Err I’m sure Fiona did tell me that night err and said that you know she’d had a, a, you know that Madeleine had you know woke, had been crying the night before and err you know this was just, and that she’d mentioned it to her and you know do you think we should be doing anything err differently, err and you know Fiona mentioned that conversation and I’m sure, I’m pretty sure it was that night err that she brought it up. Err its, you know I, do you try and make people feel better because you think, you know, who, who in the world would have thought this would have happened to anyone, you know, it just doesn’t happen to you.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "Certainly and you know the last case of a child going missing like this was you know ten years plus, you know, in Corfu, and so you know when, when your child’s been crying, whether they you know they’ve have a bad nightmare or you know they’ve, you know they’ve perhaps have had a dream and they’re crying a bit and you try and you know, and that’s what you know we were saying to Kate really, you know those were the things that go through your mind.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "Rather than think ah well perhaps someone’s tried to get into the apartment, you know, but then you look back and then the enormity of what you said does, you know gain momentum. Err that’s it.?BR>01:11:09 1485 "What I’ve got here is a few questions from the PJ’S because they wanted us to ask you…?BR>Reply "Yes.?BR>1485 "A series of questions and there may well be duplication of what you’ve said but please bare with me.?BR>Reply "Okay.?BR>1485 "Alright??BR>Reply "Yes.?BR>1485 "Now you’ve answered the first one, it says what time did you return to the beach club on May the third as you were coming from the beach??BR>Reply "Right.?BR>1485 "So that’s where you said that you come from the restaurant.?BR>Reply "Yeah, yeah we’d come from the restaurant on the beach and as I say we left there about eighteen fifteen, err at that time.?BR>1485 "And where did you go??BR>Reply "We went, I, I went up err went to see Gerry at the tennis courts.?BR>1485 "So you were at the tennis courts, who did you talk to??BR>Reply "Err just Gerry pretty much, you know, whether I made comment to anyone else I don’t remember that, just, I just remember I talked to Gerry.?BR>1485 "Okay, did you go to the MCCANN family apartment between six and seven? Well, yes you did.?BR>Reply "Mm.?BR>1485 "And if yes, why? You’ve already said that. Which route did you take? You told me that. Time? You’ve told me that. Did you enter the apartment? You’ve told me that. Who did you talk to? You’ve told me that. Did you talk to Kate? You’ve told me that. Did you notice anything unusual??BR>Reply "No, definitely not. It was err pretty much what I would expect, you know, go into the apartment, there was certainly no atmosphere, there was nothing, no disquiet between the children or Kate, you know it was just very normal, just happy children playing and ready for bed.?
01:12:53 1485 "How long did the conversation take? Well you said between three and five minutes. Did you see the children? Well yes you did, you’ve said that, including Madeleine. What were the children doing? Well you’ve said that they were just standing around.?BR>Reply "Mm, I mean they were interacting, playing a bit and you know they’re looking at me and perhaps have a, you know, but certainly…?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "Behaving normally for kids at that age.?BR>1485 "As the person who organised this trip were you aware of the baby listening service? Well yes you were, but we discussed that a bit earlier didn’t we.?BR>Reply "Yes.?BR>1485 "Was this available at night? Was it, could you remember what it…?BR>Reply "Well the, the, the point, the, the service that they, they offered there which was different to the other Mark Warner’s was that they had a, a drop-in err centre for want of a better description err for the evening. So if you wanted to go out for a meal you would take your child down to err the, the reception, you know, there’s an area down there you know specific for that where they’d have the, the nannies who would keep an eye on your children. You could go and have something to eat and then you go and pick your child up err after. This, it comes back to pretty much, you know, we’d gone there you know with the same kind of, originally we were hoping that it would be someone knocking the door, listening at the door and everything’s quiet and then move, moving on and that’s what we’d gone with the, think it would be. I did know before I went on the holiday that that wasn’t what it was going to be but we’d gone on there adopting that that’s you know how we were gonna most likely do it, well that was one of the options anyway depending on where the apartments were and everything. Now where the, where the drop-in err crèche in the evening was, was you know it was a, you know a fair distance you know from where we were staying err you know so, you know it wasn’t certainly where you ate down there and our, our complex or our apartments was quite a bit away so it was nothing that we’d really entertain. Secondly, all the children are, are you know very young and wouldn’t, would be sleeping at that time so it wasn’t something that we wanted to use because of the children, you know we’d want them to be sleeping and we, you know they wouldn’t sleep particularly well down there and you know we thought what we were doing obviously was, you know…?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>01:15:14 Reply "Was, was err reasonable. We were checking the children more often than, than Mark Warner would do, not only were they, it wasn’t just a listening outside the door, people were going in and checking the children so from that perspective we felt we were doing more than they normally would do. Err so from that point of view you know it, it was, you know, a bit of a, not say inconvenience isn’t the right word, but we were, you know we knew what we going, what, what it was going to be like when we got there and we thought what we were doing was, was more than adequate than a lot of the Mark Warner centres across Europe do.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "So err you know we were aware there was a crèche there but just for the reasons that I’ve just said that’s why we didn’t use it, so err you know and I know that’s something that’s been picked up in the press and obviously Mark Warner you know they want to put across that you know there, there is that option for people if they were to go to that Mark Warner resort.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "But, but you know.?BR>01:16:14 1485 "Were you aware by the way that during the course of the week that Gerry and Kate had changed their methods of entering their apartment??BR>Reply "Err I hadn’t at all, no.?BR>1485 "Right, the next question then from the PJ’S is, did you travel to Portugal with intercoms to monitor your children? Well you’ve said that you did.?BR>Reply "Yes.?BR>1485 "When you travel with your children do you always use intercoms??BR>Reply "Err, I mean if we, if we were staying at somebody else’s house err you know and they were in the loft or whatever and we couldn’t hear the children crying then yes we would travel with monitors. Err you know, you know, we, our child you know Scarlet was one of the youngest children there so obviously the monitor was you know, was extremely important, you know we wanted to see if she was crying because you know she wasn’t sleeping as well as the elder child so at that, that time, monitors were very important to us and if we were going anywhere where we thought that we couldn’t hear the children then you know, if they were very young then we would use the monitors but they’re now older and the question’s perhaps not as pertinent as it was err you know eleven months ago. But you know, certainly around that time we didn’t make a habit of you know going and staying in some resort or hotel and you know stick a monitor upstairs and off we went, it was, you know, we don’t go away that frequently.?BR>01:17:56

 Message 7 of 9 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknametin-lizzySent: 2/9/2009 2:26 AM
01:17:56 1485 "Did you suggest an intercom to anybody else??BR>Reply "Err no I mean, I don’t, you know I, I remember having the discussion with Fi you know, Fiona, with what, what we were gonna do but I didn’t really discuss what other people were gonna do really, you know, which comes back to the bit in the line of questioning you asked me before, do you think everyone knew about what the babysitting was like, and I’m sure I would’ve said that. Err but no we didn’t discuss monitors with anybody else.?BR>1485 "At the apartment you stayed in with your family at the Ocean Club have you ever left the windows and doors open??BR>Reply "Of the, of the apartment??BR>1485 "Of your apartment yeah.?BR>Reply "Err we, well I’d like to think that every time we went out that all the doors were shut, we never knowingly left the apartment with the doors or windows open and you know, it was good having Dianne there because she’s a very good safe, safe for everything like you know she’d, you know, so not knowingly did we ever leave them and to my recollection they were never open.?BR>1485 "Okay.?BR>Reply "You know if we were in the apartment, different, but if we left it then no.?BR>01:19:25 1485 "Okay. Okay David it’s time to get your phone out. Can I just confirm what mobile phone number you have please??BR>Reply "Yeah, its ******************, . This is not the phone that I had on the night. This is a, a new phone that I’ve had since then, quite a few of the numbers I’ve transferred across.?BR>1485 "Right.?BR>Reply "But I haven’t got all the numbers that I originally had on that phone.?BR>1485 "Okay. I’m gonna go through a series of numbers and I want you to have a look in your phone book and see whether you can tell me who they are.?BR>Reply "Yeah.?BR>1485 "The first one, the phone number ends in, and I’ll just give you the last four digits.?BR>Reply "Will you just hang on two secs, this is a bit, okay.?BR>1485 "It’s ****.?BR>Reply "**** SA.?BR>1485 "And who’s SA??BR>Reply "Err he is err my, Fiona’s sister LW, that’s her husband.?BR>1485 "And what sort of a relationship do you have with him??BR>Reply "Err a very good relationship. He is err someone that I’ve known for many years, we’ve been to their wedding, they came to our wedding, and err he’s you know a very good friend.?BR>1485 "Okay. Then there’s a series of one, two, three, four, five, six text messages around about six p.m. on Friday.?BR>Reply "The Friday, yes, err the, these were all in relation to you know what had been happening that, that, that day basically and to get advice from S. Again, you know, a bit like I said with err Fiona’s err father, you know he’s someone that I trust very well who was not with us at the time who would, who could think calmly and clearly and to just ask advice about you know what was going on, what were they picking up in the UK err you know what coverage was it getting, what, what, what did they know was going on, you know, could they feed anything back, we wanted to get any information that we possibly could, you know, that was the conversation.?BR>01:22:21 1485 "Okay the next number is, ends in **.?BR>Reply "**?I’ve err I’ve not got that one in.?BR>1485 "You’ve not got that one in??BR>Reply "No.?BR>1485 "Again, there was a series of text messages around about the same time on the Friday the fourth. There was err two calls and then...?BR>Reply "Around six o?clock??BR>1485 "Yeah, well the calls were made between eight and nine in the morning.?BR>Reply "Right.?BR>1485 "And then there was between ten a.m. to six p.m. there’s a series of eight text messages, actually I’m lying, no I’m wrong, sorry, scrap that, there was two, there was two calls between eight and nine in the morning and then one text message, two text messages around about ten a.m.?BR>Reply "Right.?BR>1485 "Could you have been at the Police Station that, the following day around about that time??BR>01:24:38 Reply "I mean we didn’t leave the Police Station the following day until about eleven o?clock so that, I mean if they were ten a.m. then that would have been before.?BR>1485 "But that number’s not in your book at all??BR>Reply "No, as I say whether it’s just because it’s not one I’ve transferred across, because I’ve not got all of the numbers in this phone that I’ve got in my other one. I, I mean I can certainly get those for you.?BR>1485 "You may well have to actually.?BR>Reply "Yeah okay.?BR>1485 "The next number ends in ***. Sorry, that’s S again, sorry.?BR>Reply "Okay.?BR>1485 "And again there was quite a number of text messages, so you text him again.?BR>Reply "Yeah.?BR>1485 "Its okay, they’ve put it in the saved box here.?BR>Reply "Oh right, so it’s the same??BR>1485 "The same yeah. Okay, we’ll move on, this is a small number and it, it is ***.?BR>Reply "So that’s a local number??BR>1485 "I think…?BR>01:26:10 Reply "Yeah, I mean err it may well have been SA gave us a contact of someone that was a friend of the family in Portugal who err could get us mobile phones because Kate and Gerry you know hadn’t got any contact, you know way of contacting, their batteries were running out or something like that so SAhad basically said err you know there’s, there’s these people that we know there and you know that could have been it.?BR>1485 "Or, because then there were two text messages sent about half past, about ten o?clock on the Friday evening to that number.?BR>Reply "Oh to that number, well that wouldn’t make sense.?BR>1485 "No.?BR>Reply "Err…?BR>1485 "From that number to your number.?BR>Reply "Oh, it could have been then, if they text me saying oh I hope everything’s alright, you’ve got the phones and everything, that’s the only thing.?BR>1485 "Okay, next number I’d like you to look for please David is **?BR>01:27:13 Reply "That’s gonna be my sister’s?**??BR>1485 "** yeah. It starts with, it’s *…?BR>Reply "Is it **.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "**??BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "Yeah it’s my mum’s number.?BR>1485 "What town is that??BR>Reply "What town is that? Err Rochdale.?BR>1485 "Rochdale??BR>Reply "Yeah, in Manchester.?BR>1485 "And again, there was a series of calls which are self explanatory I suppose.?BR>Reply "Mm, yeah.?BR>1485 "The next number could well be another relative but I’ll check with you anyway, it’s **…?BR>Reply "Yeah my sister’s.?BR>1485 "Your sister’s??BR>Reply "Yeah, that’s Market Harborough.?BR>1485 "Next number is a, I think it’s a London number, it’s o, two, o, seven, and it ends its **.?BR>Reply "**? Can we just ring it? (Laughs).?BR>01:29:09 1485 "(Laughs).?BR>Reply "No. What time was that sorry that that was…?BR>1485 "It’s about, it’s quarter past eleven or twenty three thirteen on the fourth on the Friday night.?BR>Reply "At night??BR>1485 "Yeah. So my, my recollection of ** is a London number if that helps.?BR>Reply "Yeah, I’ll just have a little look. I, I can’t remember, I’ve got friends that are down in London which I haven’t got her number in here, whether she saw it and rang it I don’t know. Was it a long, long call or??BR>1485 "Err, yeah it was quite a long call.?BR>Reply "Right, okay.?BR>1485 "But you actually called the number.?BR>Reply "Yeah, okay.?BR>1485 "Okay, the next number is, it’s a mobile number and it ends in **?BR>Reply "Mobile number **??BR>1485 "Yeah, yeah. **, and it ends in **.?BR>01:31:16 Reply "Err,**?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "LL, whose a, you know, a friend of the family’s.?BR>1485 "And what was the nature of the, it was a text message at quarter past eight, err quarter past six on the fourth.?
Reply "Yeah.?BR>1485 "Sent, I think it was sent from them to you.?BR>Reply "Yeah, it would have been oh yeah, seen, seen what’s happened out there, are you okay, you know I presume.?BR>1485 "Okay the final one is, well it ends in , **.?BR>Reply "**?The other thing is, is that err Fiona was using my phone out there, she hadn’t got her phone with her so some of these calls may be…?BR>1485 "This one’s a call.?BR>Reply "But if she got the number and the put it in, she might know what it is, but yeah.?BR>1485 "Yeah, yeah I accept that.?BR>Reply "**. Sorry ** was it??BR>1485 "**.?BR>Reply "Let’s have another look, no I don’t think I’ve got that one.?BR>1485 "Okay.?BR>Reply “It’s quite close together all this to all this, but no I can’t see that one.?BR>1485 "Alright, okay well that’s the end of the phone traffic, one fin, one question or one person I’d like to speak to you about is Yvonne MARTIN. Do you know a person called Yvonne MARTIN??BR>01:34:03 Reply "Yvonne MARTIN??BR>1485 "Social Worker.?BR>Reply "Right. Oh, okay, err there was a lady who was there on the err when me, when me and Kate were waiting on the err morning you know after Madeleine had disappeared err there was err a photographer who was living in the area who err approached us and was just saying ah I used to work for the Daily Mirror, he gave his card and then this woman came up and started err chatting to us who err essentially just said ah I’ve got many years of experience you know and just started to really try and again force their selves in the situation a bit rather than just saying look I’m around if you need me err you know, so basically I just said it wasn’t you know appropriate at the time, could she leave us alone and err but I must admit I didn’t know what her, that was you know, that was, and she was, you know she said she was trained for many years as a Social Worker and was out there now err and was offering her help, but not in a particularly helpful way and she appeared you know, and that was on the you know the morning, I don’t know somewhere perhaps between nine and ten o?clock in the morning. Err you know I’m sure, sure she’d been at, you know, she popped in there and you know she was around the area, she was seen again, but I mean I didn’t have any more contact with her then but at the time it wasn’t particularly helpful. Err I can’t really say any more than that.?BR>01:35:47 1485 "Did you know her before that meeting??BR>Reply "Err no.?BR>1485 "Did you speak to the MCCANN’S about it??BR>Reply "Err we, yeah we spoke in the context of you know that was completely inappropriate the way that she was trying to deal with it, it’s like she was trying to council Kate there and then in the thick of, you know, they’re still trying to establish what’s going on and what was happening err so you know I spoke to, you know I’m sure I mentioned her to Kate and Gerry you know within a short space of time, you know within twenty four hours of it happening. Err you know, just an example I, you know I was with Kate for quite a number of hours where I was sat with her at the err Police Station in Portimão and everything and you know weeks later she said who was I sat with, you know, and it was that, its that kind of thing you know I’m sure you know I spoke to them about it there and then within twenty four hours but err you know nothing was really mentioned a great deal about her later on or you know it was the, the, you know pretty much you know the conversation was dealt, you know dealt with it there and then and it wasn’t, you know, perhaps I mentioned it to the others saying you know and if she popped up here and there you know other people might have mentioned her but she wasn’t something that kind of like was the focus of the conversations that we had subsequently.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>01:37:15 Reply "Err for that morning.?BR>1485 "Did you advise the MCCANN’S to turn to her??BR>Reply "Not at all, no.?BR>1485 "Not at all??BR>Reply "Not at all. She was someone I’d certainly say to, to keep clear of you know and I, and I think pretty much I was saying look you know, appreciate your concern at this stage but you know it’s not the right time to be talking to her, if you want to leave a card then you know perhaps there might be a time in the future but you know can you just leave us please, and that was you know the basics of the conversation that I had with her. Err you know her timing was just completely off, err you know there was, I say there was someone else who visited on the night that she was abducted, I think she was from the upstairs and she was again you know trying to say there, there Kate, you’re alright, and again it was just completely inappropriate timing.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "I didn’t think there was anything sinister about it I just thought it was people who didn’t really perhaps have an insight into you know what has gone on and what was good timing and what wasn’t. I never really thought anything much more about either of them.?BR>1485 "Okay, there’s no more questions at this stage.?BR>Reply "Yeah.?BR>1485 "What I’m gonna do is I’m gonna take a short break, just take a bit of a coffee break.?BR>Reply "Yeah, yeah.?BR>1485 "And then come straight back in with Gerry and Kate’s questions.?BR>Reply "Right.?BR>1485 "Alright??BR>Reply "Yeah, okay.?BR>01:38:42 1485 "Just before I finish, what we’ve been talking about on this section of the interview, is there anything that you feel you want to add that may be pertinent to the investigation??BR>Reply "Again, just to you know summarise in that you know not many people find themselves in a situation like that and the way that Kate and Gerry were, there was nothing to suggest that there had been any foul play. They behaved so much as I would expect someone in the situation they were in and the way that their moods had changed from you know complete calm and serenity and enjoyment, just turned completely to you know distraught and you know that wasn’t acting, that wasn’t anyone, that was just pure grief of the situation that they found themselves in.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "And you know and the change was like that, it wasn’t you know, err I don’t think there’s anything else I’d like to add at this stage.?BR>1485 "Okay that’s fine, okay. It’s two fifty nine, or fourteen fifty nine and I’ll stop now
01:40:00 The interview ceased at 1459 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.

 Message 8 of 9 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknametin-lizzySent: 2/9/2009 2:28 AM
Person Interviewed: David PAYNE Number of Pages 35
Place of Interview: Force Headquarters, Enderby Signature of Interviewing
Date of Interview: 11.04.08 Officer producing exhibit
Time Commenced: 1530 hours
Time Concluded: 1640 hours Duration of Interview: 70 minutes
Interviewing Officer(s) DC 1485 MESSIAH Tape Reference nos:
Other Persons Present None

Tape counter times Person speaking Text

00:00:05 1485 "Okay the video’s now recording again. We’re in a third interview with yourself. We’re at Force Headquarters Police in Leicestershire. I am DC Ivor MESSIAH from Leicestershire Police Major Crime Team and the date is Friday the eleventh of April and the time I make by my watch is fifteen thirty exactly. Could you just tell me who you are please??BR>Reply "I’m David PAYNE.?BR>1485 "Okay. I’m just continuing in relation to you being a witness to, or, in regards to the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine MCCANN, alright, and this is the third interview we’re conducting.?BR>Reply "Yes.?BR>1485 "Hopefully it should be the last. Once again a series of questions, a lot of open questions, take your time in answering and give me as thorough answer as possible.?BR>Reply "Okay.?BR>1485 "Right, I just, before I move on I just need to refer back to the last interview just to clarify a couple of points.?BR>Reply "Okay.?BR>00:01:05 1485 "One of the points is, do you recall you told me that when Kate had come back to the Tapas and said…?BR>Reply "Yeah.?BR>1485 "What had happened.?BR>Reply "Yes.?BR>1485 "You’d said that, you referred to some sort of, her face, you said the look on her face…?BR>Reply "Yeah.?BR>1485 "Was, can you remember what you said??BR>Reply "Err, how did I describe, I mean just you know the, it was just a haunting face of someone who’s you know discovered what she discovered.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "It was just, you know, if you meet Kate now, you know, you can see it, you can just see it in her eyes still. Err, I mean, the only other way to put it, you know, there’s something missing from her life.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "But it was just, you know, the grief and the horror in that face, you know.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "It was just err I’ll just never forget it.?
1485 "Yeah. But there was a specific, I mean I’ll, I can probably look at the video at a later stage.?BR>Reply "Yes.?BR>1485 "And I just wonder whether you can remember what you said? It was quite impactive what you said.?BR>00:02:16 Reply "Err, sorry.?BR>1485 "No? That’s okay. Can you recall shortly after that she went running off to the apartment block and she was saying they’ve taken her??BR>Reply "Mm.?BR>1485 "Is that what you said??BR>Reply "Mm, yes.?BR>1485 "She’s taken, they’ve taken her??BR>Reply "She, you know, obviously there’s what we’ve talked about when, you know, it’s portrayed in the press about what she said, they’ve taken her, and that was definitely not, and that was, you know, or unanimous across everyone we’d all said that was not what she first of all said, you know, she’s gone was you know the first words that she said.?BR>1485 "She first said that she’s gone??BR>Reply "She’s gone.?BR>1485 "And then the second time she said??BR>Reply "And then, I mean, and then as we were walking up, err and there’s you know the exchange of conversation was you know, was they’ve taken her.?BR>1485 "Okay. Moving on a little bit to Gerry and Kate, because they like, because you know they’re into tennis aren’t they??BR>Reply "They are.?BR>1485 "They seem to be playing tennis every day.?BR>Reply "Yes.?BR>1485 "Virtually. Do you know whether they took their own tennis kit out??BR>00:03:23 Reply "Err no they didn’t.?BR>1485 "They didn’t take the kit out??BR>Reply "No.?BR>1485 "But when I said…?BR>Reply "Oh sorry when you say the tennis kit…?BR>1485 "When I say kit.?BR>Reply "I’m talking about the, err racquet and b*lls they didn’t take.?BR>1485 "Kit in, you know, kit in general is gonna mean the attire and…?BR>Reply "Err, did they have any specific tennis gear? You know (inaudible) I don’t, I, I don’t recall that they had anything specific you know to play, you know, we all have what we ha, call tennis gear you know, not the stuff that you probably go swimming in and you know…?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "Which was appropriate to wear on a tennis court but they weren’t err you know they weren’t water goers, you know they weren’t interested in the water sports side of things.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "So you know they knew there was the tennis side of it and they’d gone along with the interest of playing, you know, some more tennis.?BR>1485 "So generally what would they wear to play tennis as far as you can recollect??BR>Reply "Err I’ve got the pictures, err, err yeah again, sorry I can’t remember.?BR>1485 "Well would it be fair to say it would be t-shirts??BR>Reply "Oh yes, yeah.?BR>1485 "Colours??BR>Reply "Err I mean again I think Gerry had a white, a white top err I think he had a, you know, like a polo shirt.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>00:04:36 Reply "Err sleeveless, err I, I keep thinking he’s got white trousers err shorts sorry, but I can’t remember.?BR>1485 "What about a kit bag? Would they have a kit bag with them??BR>Reply "Err he certainly didn’t have a great big tennis bag or a, you know, err I mean I used to be a squash, a semi-professional squash player and you know they certainly didn’t have anything that I would call a kit bag from days when I played…?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "You know, a lot of sport, err if they had a rucksack with some water in that would be, you know, about as big as it got, you know a small rucksack. But it certainly wasn’t a big tennis, you know, things that you could put a tennis racquet in.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "There was nothing of that size that you could hide a, a tennis racquet in or anything like that, it would have been just purely, if they had anything…?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "It would have been something that had their water in.?BR>1485 "So as opposed to a bag it’d be something like a rucksack, if at all??BR>Reply "If, if at all, yeah.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "Yeah.?BR>1485 "And is that the same for Kate??BR>Reply "Yeah, yeah.?BR>00:05:37 1485 "You mentioned early on, on the last interview as well, about a photo. You spoke brief about a photo you’d shown, you’d shown a photo.?BR>Reply "Oh yes, I mean…?BR>1485 "Where did that come from??BR>Reply "Err where did the photo come from? That’s a very good question, err I’m not sure whether it was from Gerry’s digital camera or one of the digital cameras that we had there from my recollection. Err but you know, it was, sorry I can’t, I can’t remember exactly. I seem to remember it was one of the digital cameras but that’s about as far as it...?BR>1485 "Can you remember the pose in which Madeleine was on the photo??BR>Reply "Err I can’t, no.?BR>1485 "Did you see the photo??BR>Reply "Err I did, yes. I mean Russell err was probably the most instrumental in that side that we, you know he’s very good with computers and setting that side up, so he specifically went off err you know to do that. Err you know, I mean we kind of identified early like you know I have, I have seen the picture and, but sorry I can’t remember it.?BR>00:07:03 1485 "Okay.?BR>Reply "But Russell was, I say, you know that was where his strengths was and he went down trying to link up the computers and was good at that kind of (inaudible).?BR>1485 "Where did the com, where did they link the computer up??BR>Reply "Err the err originally I thought it had been done in the reception at the Ocean Club, not the Tapas bar, but then I realised it was actually the Tapas bar, err sorry the other reception as you walk through into the Tapas complex err there’s a room just on the right there err they’d got a computer and a printer there err that’s how they sorted it out.?BR>1485 "And Russell did that??BR>Reply "Russell did that yes.?BR>1485 "Was that at Gerry’s request??BR>Reply "My, well it might have been Gerry’s or mine, it was something that we, you know, we, you know you’re trying to think what we should do in the circumstances and we thought right you know a picture, we’ve gotta get a picture out because you know everybody didn’t know who Madeleine was so if people were searching for her they needed a picture to identify her, but we, you know, we were also convinced that you know she’d been taken and there was a high chance that someone had got transport to take her, given the way that we thought you know she’d been carried off and err you know, we, well if, if, the worst scenario if there was, if someone was gonna move Madeleine away from that area, you know we wanted the, to try and get the, err, the area secured. Therefore they would need a picture to see who, to identify her so it was something that we were, those, those two things we were, you know keen at trying to secure that, you know, the picture was available and err the, you know the roads were closed down in the surrounding areas.?BR>00:08:40 1485 "How many photos were there??BR>Reply "Err again, I don’t, I didn’t see all the photos but I know there was at least ten that were printed off, but whether there was more than that I couldn’t say but I know that there was at least ten available.?BR>1485 "And they were all of Madeleine??BR>Reply "They were.?BR>1485 "Were they all the same pictures??BR>Reply "Err again, I would have to say I think so, I didn’t see all the copies.?BR>1485 "Okay.?BR>Reply "But I know that’s what, you know, Russell said, again, I think.?BR>1485 "Right and do you know where they all went?
Reply "I don’t know.?BR>1485 "Okay. Did you take any photos on the night at the Tapas bar??BR>Reply "No I didn’t.?BR>1485 "Did anybody take any photos??BR>Reply "Err…?BR>1485 "Before Kate obviously raised the alarm.?BR>Reply "Not that I’m aware of. There wasn’t, normally we’re quite snap happy but err we’ve only got a few pictures from the second of May, then the third of May and then you know a few days until err so there wasn’t a great deal of pictures being taken err you know obviously there was a few here and there, Jane’s quite keen on photography, I know she takes some nice pictures and I’d taken some in the play area on the, the, err the night before and we’ve also got pictures of the, the afternoon from the beach and from the restaurant and then the play area again and there’s some pictures of us playing tennis err with the times on, so you know that’s about the last pictures that I can recall. I’ve got our pictures and I’ve got Dianne’s pictures but I’ve certainly not seen anybody else’s err completely.?BR>00:10:35 1485 "What about the night before? The Wednesday night, did you take any pictures, were any pictures taken then? Or did you see any pictures being taken then??BR>Reply "In the evening??BR>1485 "Yeah, because I understand that you stayed later on the Wednesday night.?BR>Reply "We did, yes, err the pictures that I’ve got, there are some pictures on one of the evenings and I can’t say which evening that was.?BR>1485 "Your camera should…?BR>Reply "My cameras will have the…?BR>1485 "It’ll have…?BR>Reply "It’ll have the date on there.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "But I, you know I can’t remember which evening, I thought it was earlier on in the week but err but again it wasn’t, it wasn’t, you know in the evenings wasn’t generally camera time, I don’t think people were that bothered really in the evening and that taking pictures, it wasn’t...?BR>1485 "Because it would have all pictures of you huddled together and...?BR>Reply "Well it would yeah.?BR>1485 "(Inaudible).?BR>Reply "That was it yeah. I mean as I say there’s only like two or three pictures I think we’ve got from the evening.?BR>1485 "Right. When you had your beach hour on the Thursday, so you came off windsurfing and then you had food at the beach bar, where was Kate and Gerry??BR>00:11:52 Reply "Err I mean they certainly weren’t at the beach bar err you know there was, as I say it was all parties apart, apart from the MCCANN family and I wasn’t aware what they were doing at that, that moment.?BR>1485 "About, not long after, well before sorry you went, you left…?BR>Reply "I mean obviously Gerry was playing tennis…?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "Around that time because you know I knew that I was going up to meet with Gerry.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "Sorry, but you know, I’ll make that a bit clearer sorry, when we were doing the water sports and that I know at some stage I think we played tennis and that but I couldn’t say you know what, or they’re in, you know the times we’re around there and I knew that Gerry was playing tennis around when we were thinking of going back to, to walk up with him, to play tennis in the evening.?BR>1485 "So you knew as opposed to seeing them??BR>Reply "Well I, I knew Gerry was you know, around that time sorry that he was going to be playing tennis, but I mean I don’t know, I couldn’t tell you what they were doing earlier on in that afternoon.?BR>1485 "Yeah. Did you see Kate running along the beach at all??BR>Reply "I didn’t, no.?BR>1485 "During that day??BR>Reply "No.?BR>1485 "Around the teatime ish side??BR>Reply "Err, again, again I, sorry to say this again but I, I you know she’d been running quite a bit after Madeleine err had gone, and, and again it just gets a little bit patchy and you know, I know I saw her on the beach running, but whether that was after or before I can’t remember.?BR>1485 "(Inaudible.)?BR>00:13:25 Reply "That’d be something I’d probably, if I looked at my statement if there’s anything in there.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "I would be guided by that. Err I don’t…?BR>1485 "So you…?BR>Reply "I don’t think I did, if I, you know if you wanted me to hedge a bet on that one then I’d say more likely I can’t remember seeing her running on that, that afternoon but I, I’d prefer to have a look at my statement because I’m sure of at the time of my statement I would have mentioned that.?BR>1485 "Okay. I’d like you to describe Madeleine to me. What sort of a child she is and you know how you see her.?BR>Reply "Mm, err Madeleine’s err a very striking err beautiful child, I’d almost if I want a better phrase call her doll-like, you know she was very, you know I think, you know very unique looking child err, she’d got very pretty, you know blonde hair err in a bob, she was quite a petite err child and you know she was very bubbly, very err you know she was a very good child to, to interact with. She was very bright, you could have a lot of fun with Madeleine err and you know she, she was, you know Kate and Gerry’s, you know pride and joy. They’d had a lot of trouble conceiving, you know with IVF and everything and you know Madeleine was their miracle. She was obviously very unique with the fact that she’d got the, you know the iris defect err but you know she was certainly a happy go lucky child you know she was, she would interact with the other children very well, as I said on the other, earlier recording, you know she played very happily with Lily and you know indeed the other children. She was, you know, very, she is a very beautiful child and good fun.?BR>1485 "Mm.?BR>00:15:30 Reply "You know I, you know a fact I’ve come across already you know she was a, she’s a very bright child you know, she wouldn’t be the kind of mischievous child who you know and just try and get out of the flat and you know get up to mischief and that, you know, there’s fun in all children but she certainly wasn’t that kind of child. She was very bright.?BR>1485 "Moving on then to the time that you, when you say after the alarm was raised you went into the MCCANN’S apartment. Can you describe the layout of the apartment??BR>Reply "If you’re going in through the patio doors you walk directly into the, err the living, you know, lounge space. Then if you’re going, walking through the apartment towards the front door you have the kitchen on the, err right, which was a small kitchen, which was boxed off from the rest of err open plan living space. If you were walking from the patio doors into the apartment and you were walking towards the front door and turn left you would go towards the bedroom areas. Directly in front of you, you had the bathroom err as you were looking at the bathroom the door to the left would be the, the room where Kate and Gerry stayed and the door to the right was err where the children were sleeping. Err you know there was the double bed in the err Kate and Gerry’s room and as you went into err Sean and Amelie’s room there was a bed up against the far wall where there was the, you know, was the window. There was another bed parallel to that but across the other side of the room, err along the wall where the door is where you walked into the apartment. In between the two parallel beds was the, err two cots also parallel with the space err between the two of them, and obviously the twins were sleeping in the err cots and then err Madeleine was on the bed which was nearest the door that you walked in to get in there.?BR>1485 "Okay. When you went in after the alarm was raised what was the bedroom like at that point??BR>00:18:01 Reply "Err the, you know again I, it, it wasn’t, it wasn’t dark, it wasn’t really, really dark but it you know my overall impression was the room was fairly dark. The, the children as I said before were still err fast asleep, which again you know we’ve discussed this you know over the months that Kate and Gerry you know, as all children wake up you know in the night and err you know with all the pandemonium and the shouting, breaking, that they were still you know, fast asleep, and err you know I wouldn’t describe that I could see anything in the room like there’d been, you know, clothes thrown around the room or anything and disturbed and you know I, I noticed that the bed was empty that Madeleine was sleeping in. Other people have described that the bed was very neat and tidy but that isn’t what, you know, I could confirm.?BR>1485 "What was the bed like that you can confirm??BR>Reply "I, I, you know, I, my note, visual note was she’s not there, the twins are there, you know I just ran out and you know was wanting to, you know, run around like a headless chicken and try and do something you know to be helpful.?BR>00:19:23 1485 "How long do you think you were in that bedroom for??BR>Reply "Err as I say when I was there I wasn’t actually, hadn’t walked in to the whole part of the bedroom, if anything I’d just stepped in to the room just from the, err you know the doorway perhaps just beyond the doorway, but I hadn’t you know gone right in to say like where the twins were or in between where the beds were. Err again it’s, it’s difficult, it’s difficult to say because I could have well pop back more than once just, you know, you know with Gerry, you know moving, you know we were moving around so frequently, err I wasn’t certainly there for any length of time, whether it’d be a minute, you know that would be something, or that I’d ever stayed at the maximum because there was just so much else.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "You know going on with people running around etcetera.?BR>1485 "Throughout the holiday from the twenty eighth till the fifth, or till the third…?BR>Reply "Mm.?BR>1485 "How many times do you think you actually went into the MCCANN’S apartment??BR>00:20:33 Reply "Err probably more than other people as I said there was the, there was one, there was the incident with the cot where were trying to, you know, had some difficulty with one of the cots that had been provided to err you know so and they’d got the spare cot that you know so I had to go down and pick that up and then I, I popped in there you know some other times as well, I say I probably, in total during the week, I’d have said five, half a dozen times I’d been to that apartment.?BR>1485 "Okay. Just going back to the phone numbers, do you recall I told, or you mentioned the Portuguese number??BR>Reply "Yes.?BR>1485 "I mentioned to you that they’d sent you, or they sent to your phone a text message on the fourth, which is the following, the next day about twenty past ten, sorry two minutes past ten.?BR>Reply "Right.?BR>1485 "And then eight minutes past ten.?BR>Reply "Mm.?BR>1485 "Did you actually speak to these people??BR>Reply "Err…?BR>1485 "In Portugal??BR>Reply "The, I mean, the other, there was a, the other person who contacted me which I didn’t mention while I was at the Police Station was one of the Portuguese err newspapers and err you know asking, you know for comments and err so that could have been what the, you know, the number. I spoke, I did speak to the other, the friends of Simon ALDRIDGE’S who you know who kindly bought the phones and they actually bought the phones to the Portimão Police Station and I went downstairs and got the phones and then err brought them back upstairs. Err in terms of you know whether I, we spoke to them on the next day sorry, was that the question??BR>1485 "Well you spoke to them on the next day, the next day yeah that Madeleine went missing, on the fourth.?BR>Reply "Right.?BR>1485 "That’s when, well, there’s text messages but what I’m asking you is, did you speak to them??BR>00:22:29 Reply "Err I don’t remember having any text conversation with any err Portuguese newspapers so I presume that Portuguese number, they, sorry yeah the other, the, the other Portuguese person I spoke with was err there was err a Solicitor in err Lisbon who err the conversation it may well have been with Lisa LACARNIE because that was a friend of their family who they, they’ve got a business in the UK but they deal with Portugal and Lisa said if you need any err Portuguese advice then there’s err Paolo, and again I’ve got his number in my other phone which might clarify that bit.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "And err he err and I did speak to him again after that day so it may well have been him just to say oh you know do you want any help, do you want any advice, and err and that you know that’s how it was left at that, that stage so that might have been, piecing it together from what you’re saying.?BR>1485 "Do you recall me telling you about the London number, which you couldn’t find in your phone??BR>Reply "Yes.?BR>00:24:00 1485 "That number actually transcribes back to the Crime Specialist Director in London.?BR>Reply "Mm.?BR>1485 "Did you contact them??BR>Reply "Err I did yes. My, err you know my sister err had been in contact with them and she was trying to do everything that she could knowing the, err, the difficulties that we were having out there so you know I did approach them just asking for advice but err I can’t remember, I don’t think I actually spoke to anyone there, but for some reason that wasn’t carried forward.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "But I mean, you know, just into the context of the conversation you know we’re in a strange country, we’ve got no representeers we don’t know what’s going on, all hell’s broken loose and you know to see whether you can do anything to help Madeleine come back, you know and that was the lines that we were taking.?BR>1485 "Do you remember who you spoke to??BR>Reply "I don’t know.?BR>1485 "The call was made on the following day at twenty three thirteen, so that’s late at night.?BR>Reply "Mm.?BR>1485 "You don’t recollect anything else about the conversation that you had with that, was it you that made the call??BR>Reply "Err I, yeah I know that I got phone numbers from my sister which I did you know ring them but I can’t remember making one late at night.?BR>00:25:35 1485 "Okay. Okay just finally we’ll come on to the, Kate and Gerry’s questions and you may have answered these.?BR>Reply "Okay yeah.?BR>1485 "The first question is an obvious question. How long have you known Gerry and Kate? And what kind of a relationship do you have with the couple??BR>Reply "Yeah, err I say Fiona first worked with Kate err at an anaesthetic registrar and I was doing research back in two thousand, err so that’s you know we ended up going out err for the night and then you know we’re very good friends ever since. Err we went away to err Lanzarote err that was gonna be about two thousand and three, they came to our wedding later in two thousand and three. We went to Majorca with them a year later and again had a very good you know holiday with them there. You know we see them, you know re, you know quite frequently, we’ve always got on extremely well. Err the more I know Gerry the more I like the guy, err and it works great you know because Fiona has a really good relationship with Kate, I get on really well with Gerry, you know I get on well with Kate as well. Our kids all get on well together and you know we, you know they, you know they are just such lovely people they’ve got time for absolutely every, anybody and to hear the things that have been said about them again is just, you know it’s completely err heartbreaking really because they are, they’re just, they are the salt of the earth they really are.?BR>00:27:42 1485 "Have you ever been at Kate and Gerry’s home when their children have been at home? And if so, how many times??BR>Reply "Yes, I mean we, err we know them when they were err living at, obviously when they were at Queniborough first, we’ve known Madeleine ever since, you know she’s err been around and we went over to see them in Amsterdam as well and you watched Madeleine, you know, we were all the staying there together then since the twins have been around we’ve been round as well so we’ve been many, many times you know when they’ve been together, you know the children have been there err so yeah.?BR>1485 "Were your children present as well??BR>Reply "Yeah, yeah, you know because obviously between the five children and we’ve known them ever since, before we’ve had children and then when each one’s come along you know we’ve always been, you know each family’s been pleased for the other family if you like and there’s always, you know wanted to be available when you, your children are being born and congratulate and to help and err and so I think you know ever since we’ve known them and since we had children we’ve always been around.?BR>00:28:55 1485 "And the next question is have you ever been on holiday with them before? Well yes you have.?BR>Reply "Mm.?BR>1485 "How did they take care of the children at night when you went away with them before??BR>Reply "Err when err we were, when we were, well when they came to our wedding first of all Madeleine was very young then so you know they kept her you know with them at all times. When we went to err Majorca together it was a big err building you know for, big enough for four couples and the family and we just stayed at that particular err you know farm house, you know all the time really so if, when the kids went to bed we were downstairs. Err they, when we were there they were downstairs so they weren’t far away from err you know where we were staying that night and err you know their kids slept very well that holiday and err but you know they were, they were very close by and people were passing by you know just to check on the kids upstairs because we were having a bit more of a problem so you know there was a lot of activity not far away from where their children were, they’d all slept very well in that early part of the evening, well I think through the night generally. So we were very close by err we were, we ate generally in, in the place itself which wasn’t many metres away but you know certainly they were very responsible and err you know certainly nothing.?/DIV>

 Message 9 of 9 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nicknametin-lizzySent: 2/9/2009 2:30 AM
00:30:34 1485 "The next question is, how often did you meet Kate and Gerry during the holiday between the twenty eighth and the third? I think we’ve already covered that haven’t we.?BR>Reply "Yeah, yeah. Less frequently than probably other people but we all met up, and certainly in the evenings and play time.?BR>1485 "How often did you see Madeleine…?BR>Reply "Sorry can I just go back to that??BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "I mean also there was times when we you know did the picking up at the crèche, you know Lily was always at the same crèche as Sean and Amelie so I would generally meet Gerry you know err when we, when the crèche had finished in the morning, when, because that was the only time that err Lily went there so I either, generally saw either Kate or Gerry at that time.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "So that was also another moment that we generally linked up.?BR>1485 "Well other than, because you played tennis on the third, so other than the third was there any other times that you played tennis with Gerry??BR>Reply "Oh yeah, err there was, you know one, one evening err there was a fastest serve evening and we had a bit of fun all trying to err you know out the machine which measured how quickly you served, so you know, that was the evening that we played, I’m sure there must have been another time that we’d had a knock as well.?BR>00:31:43 1485 "Have you ever felt you had a reason to become concerned about the children??BR>Reply "During the holiday or generally? This answer’s probably the same anyway to…?BR>1485 "Generally I would think.?BR>Reply "No, err you know Kate and Gerry I think it’s, they’ve had you know the twins, it’s never difficult, err sorry it’s never easy looking after twins, err my sister’s got twins and err you know and it was very difficult for them. Madeleine would often get up in the night and go and sleep in the same bed as err Kate and Gerry so I think their sleep patterns were pretty disturbed and I always marvelled at how well, I mean I’d be so much more tired than they were and, and grouchy but they never were. They were never, I, I’ve never ever seen either of them lose it with, with the kids you know err they, they you know tell them off as any parent does but you know no, not particularly forcefully you know as, you know and they have they’ve always been such an even keel err that you know you just have to admire how they’ve brought their, their family up, and children up.?BR>1485 "When was the first time that you saw Kate and Gerry on that Thursday??BR>Reply "Thursday? Again, I can’t, you know the only moments I can definitely say is when I saw Gerry before the tennis and then I saw Kate but you know there must have been some other time during the day but I’m not sure.?BR>00:33:26 1485 "So seeing Kate in the apartment…?BR>Reply "Yeah.?BR>1485 "Was that the first time that you saw her that day??BR>Reply "I, I can’t, I can’t recall seeing her before that but I’m not saying that I didn’t see her.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "Err…?BR>1485 "Well we’ve covered what time you got to the Tapas bar and who was there, we’ve covered what Gerry and Kate were doing when you arrived, did you speak to Kate and Gerry? Well you spoke to Gerry didn’t you? How were they behaving generally??BR>Reply "Err while we were at the Tapas??BR>1485 "When you got…?BR>Reply "Yeah err you know as I said on the earlier err tape that you know I, I’d had one of the best days and you know I was saying that to Gerry and Gerry was going ah you know you wouldn’t believe what a brilliant day we’ve had and you know it’s one of the best days he’s had there and he was, you know, he, he’s someone who is, you know, you know we were saying, you know what a great week it worked out, you know really well you know how ironic you know that’s turned out to be but you know that was generally the mood that evening. You know we were coming towards the end of the, err holiday you know it was our last but one night and err yeah it was just a really good, a good mood, you know as I say if that’s the only that, that’s the only thing that’s peculiar about it, you know, but everyone was…?BR>00:34:54 1485 "It’s got here, who left the table and why? Well we’ve discussed that people left the table.?BR>Reply "Mm.?BR>1485 "To go and look after their children, can you think of anybody who went, who left the table that night to other than look after the children??BR>Reply "No, I can’t, I can’t think of any other reason.?BR>1485 "It’s one of the earlier interviews, somebody had mentioned that primarily it was, other than Jane, it was all the males that did all the running about, would that be about right??BR>Reply "I mean as I say I remember Matt and Russell going, I remember Gerry going and remember the, you know, Jane you know, err I can’t remember whether Rachael left the table or not, but the…?BR>1485 "Dianne??BR>Reply "Err I don’t think, I don’t think Dianne left the table, I don’t remember seeing her move.?BR>1485 "Fiona??BR>Reply "No.?BR>00:36:07 1485 "Did you see Gerald leaving the table during the meal? Well we discussed that about why and what time, for how long, and, but you said when he returned, did he act any differently when he returned??BR>Reply "No, no.?BR>1485 "And again these are sort of questions relating to the same thing with different individuals.?BR>Reply "Yeah.?BR>1485 "So when, did you see Jane leave the table? And what time? For how long??BR>Reply "Mm, err as I say I can’t remember exactly how long people left, the longest anyone left was, was you know I can remember is Russell and again that was because in terms of you know the food issue.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "And err but you know certainly everyone else I don’t remember them going for a particularly long time, I’d expect them to walk up to the apartment, look at their, err respective children and then walk back.?BR>00:37:08 1485 "Obviously that relates as well to Matthew, which you’ve covered, Russell which you’ve covered, Kate which you’ve covered, was that the one and only time that Kate left the table when she came back and raised the alarm??BR>Reply "I believe so.?BR>1485 "According to your…?BR>Reply "According to my memory yeah.?BR>1485 "According your memory. And you described how she looked and you described how she was behaving. Were you shocked about what she’d said??BR>Reply "I mean, the, you know the first, you know there’s a moment of disbelief you know or you know you look for every plausible, you know, explanation in your mind which just goes through very, you know filters through very quickly you know could this have happened, or you know or what, you know but as I say when she said it and the look on her face it was, you know if a picture told a thousand words then you know. Again, you know, Kate is just so reliable you know she wouldn’t come running down and saying, well certainly she’s gone and then you know thinking she’s wandered off and then as it transpired you know, then you know, what she was telling us after in terms about the gate, but the look on her face and her saying she’s gone, it to me implied what had happened without actually hearing anything else, just by the look on her face.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "But you know, again, whether that’s also a little bit of retrospectively, you know, (inaudible) on the situation, but I can just remember the look on her face, she’s gone.?BR>00:39:00 1485 "Did you enter the MCCANN apartment? Well you did. Did you enter the children’s room? Which you did. You described what you saw, you’ve said that you saw the twins. Did you notice anything strange about it??BR>Reply "Err, as I say, you know about before, the amount of screaming that was going on in the apartment and around and everything that was kicking off and the fact that the two of them could just sleep through it, you know, again, perhaps just take on board saying that you know sometimes you know, they’ve had their difficulties with Kate and Gerry with them sleeping through and you know it was just very bizarre that they continued to sleep through. Err you know I did notice obviously that, the change in the, you know the blind and the err window, but you know I can’t accurately say it like other people did, you know what, how exactly did they find it, I couldn’t say.?BR>1485 "What do you mean the change in the blinds in the window??BR>Reply "Well you know it was pointed out, the window was open, the blind’s not, you know, err down it’s open, you know so those things you know I was made aware of but err as I say I couldn’t tell you exactly how far down the blind was or how much the window was open.?BR>00:40:22 1485 "Did Kate say anything about the window and the shutter??BR>Reply "Err I’m sure she did but what she exactly said and you know because we were, you know, the first thing you’re trying to do is work out how it could be opened you know, what was, you know, err and you know the discussion whether it be open from the inside or the outside but what she said I can’t remember. But also on the back of subsequent discussions that we had about what may have happened, it’s difficult to say without, or you know things merge into one.?BR>1485 "What did you do next? Well you took part in assisting in the apartment then you did some searches with Russell and…?BR>Reply "Matt.?BR>1485 "Matthew was saying, and you was with, who were you with? Russell and Matt obviously. Okay, on realising that Madeleine was not found within the first ten minutes, how did Kate react??BR>Reply "Err she was distraught and you know (sighs).?BR>1485 "And the same for Gerry??BR>Reply "Yeah, I mean Kate, you know Kate generally, you know more emotional than err Gerry was and then all of a sudden Gerry would breakdown and you know just, you know saying she’s gone, you know she’s gone, err Kate was more like that on a continual basis throughout the evening. Err Gerry would still try and function in between the moments of you know breaking down and err you know and try to, you know, I had the discussion on with phone and you know what, what we gonna do and err and then, you know, they’d breakdown again, so there was…?BR>00:42:25 1485 "Considering that Madeleine had disappeared, what did you think of their behaviour??BR>Reply "(Sighs) I mean it, you know I, whatever, it, it seemed to be appropriate, I’ve never been in a position to see what people are normally like after, it seemed completely appropriate for what had happened and there wasn’t one moment you know that I thought that’s, you know oh crikey they’ve taken that well or you know, you’d expect them to be more upset than that or you know, (inaudible) expected it if you haven’t lived through that circumstances.?BR>1485 "I just want you to think about this one here now, what did you do between, I know you said that you did subsequent searches, but up until ten o?clock the next morning, just tell me what you, just go through your movements.?BR>Reply "What, sorry, in the…?BR>1485 "Yeah so you’ve started to take part in the searches and you’ve taken part with Matt and Russell.?BR>Reply "Mm.?BR>1485 "You’ve done a bit of a loop of the…?BR>Reply "Yeah.?BR>1485 "Down to the Supermarket. Just tell me…?BR>Reply "I mean the…?BR>1485 "You went back, subsequently back to your apartment and then bedtime and then…?BR>Reply "Yeah I mean my, my, you know a lot of the movements you know the, initially with the sweep that I did straight away round the complex I was on, you know I did that on my own err you know, going up to the room, that bit I did on my own and where I swept down to the beach and walked along you know and shouted for Madeleine and seeing other people as I went along you know that was purely, I was running and I was doing that on my own. Then when I went back to the apartment, then swept up you know at some stage looking up at the, the area above the apartment to the side, looking in the rough err some rough land which was on the way to the err Millennium err where we ate, err and there was err bumped into Dan, he was looking, you know the tennis pro, looking there you know err I say that was another part of the search. In the meantime there was also, you know, discussion with Mark Warner people and the Police immediately outside the, err, the apartment err you know so there was, I can’t think of anything else to say.?BR>00:45:00 1485 "So when did you eventually go back to your apartment??BR>Reply "Err…?BR>1485 "To sleep and…?BR>Reply "To go to sleep? We went back to the apartment about four, four thirty err we slept err you know we’d got err Sean and Amelie err over to the apartment, you know we’d got the bedding done for Kate and Gerry and then we went sleep, we woke up about six, six thirty err and then as I say, err, you know Kate and Gerry were err you know were already awake, not that they’d, you know, they’d slept sorry you know they were still awake and err you know they, they’d been out searching already looking to see what’s happening. Again I remember Kate very distraught you know, there was nobody outside the err apartments and you know and it just felt like time was just ticking by and you know nothing, you know appeared to be happening.?BR>1485 "And then you spoke to Yvonne MARTIN around about nine o?clock you said.?BR>Reply "Mm.?BR>1485 "What did you do up until nine o?clock??BR>Reply "Err I remember we were hang, you know I was outside with, you know, with Kate quite a bit err just basically looking, seeing whether anything was happening, err outside, err I say there was, there was the local report and the news journalist who came up as well at some stage, then err then there was a correspondence between you know, with Robert MURAT and the err Police who err arrived and you know trying to find out what was going on. And then, you know, obviously we were gonna be going to the err Portimão Police Station and then you know we were waiting obviously for that to happen and err that’s about it really.?BR>00:47:03 1485 "Okay when did you leave Portugal??BR>Reply "Err we stayed on for about another four weeks err after, err I can’t remember the exact err date that we left but towards the end of May.?BR>1485 "And did you see and meet Kate and Gerry??BR>Reply "Yeah, I mean…?BR>1485 "During that time.?BR>Reply "I mean we, we, we tended to find that the best time to meet up with them was err in the evenings, that was you know they were trying to get through a hell of a lot of work, Gerry was you know, you know working away, was trying to err you know get things going and you know corresponding and ringing people and err the err the, the Police, err the liaison team who came out from Leicester you know when they initially came out I, you know I hooked up with Kate and Gerry and was you know part for the early meetings but then err Mike, you know Kate’s cousin, and err Johnny, you know they came out and they were, you know they were, spent a lot of their time around (inaudible) and then Trish and Sandy, so they ended up getting a very good team of people immediately around them who, you know, they certainly wanted their, their help from whether it be a practical err level err or advice, then you know they’d got, so we were just really felt that you know at the end of the day was the most appropriate time to catch up with them. I mean obviously, you know, the, the televised, you know when we went to the err church with err you know Kate and Gerry and err the rest of the group err so you know probably out of the, of the other couples there we, you know we tended to meet up most of the time in the evenings and then we would you know go back to the, err, the rest of the group and just, you know and try and give some information about what had happened to Madeleine you know. That’s what everything was about you know, what’s going on you know, was there any information you know, and, we tended you know to watch a lot of Sky news just to try and get any information that we possibly could about what was going on, err so that was kind of the main contact we had with them. Err probably around less than a week, or around a week after Madeleine had gone, you know we all met up as err a group and I think in our apartment they, you know wanted to just touch base with everybody you know we, we’d all been through that experience and Kate and Gerry wanted to you know, again in the, in the depths of despair that they would just see how everyone else was and just you know err, err, and just you know there was a real camaraderie, you know, mix of people who were there.?BR>00:49:55 1485 "Did the original group all stay till the same time as you??BR>Reply "No we, we decided that we would stay out longer than err the other, you know Matt and Rachael and Russell and Jane, we didn’t think it was a, certainly it was appropriate that we all left together, it you know, I think no-one wanted to really leave, they wanted to stay there as long as they could and you know, and be a support for err Kate and Gerry but I think obviously you know, I think other events were taking over and really we, you know we were just, you know super, superfluous for requirements and it was just like groundhog day, we were just doing the same thing, you know every day, get up and then wait till the end of the day and err you know I think certainly others felt it was import, you know that as a, as a stage that they’d reached where they felt it was appropriate to leave. We certainly wanted to stay longer, you know, we were the, the main friends for Kate and Gerry out the group there and err we wanted to provide as much support as we, as we could and I think the other thing was that Gerry ended up coming back to the UK and we felt that it was a good time, you know, to support Kate and be there while he’d gone so that not everyone had gone.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>00:51:14 Reply "Err because we felt that the people who had been through that experience were the only ones who could really know what it was it was like and err so you know and that’s the spot that we felt the bond, you know, with Kate and so we waited till he’d done that and then it seemed like err the right time for us to, to leave.?BR>1485 "We’re not far off now, during the holiday did you see Kate and Gerry speak to anybody unknown to yourself??BR>Reply "At the, after Madeleine had gone or before??BR>1485 "Before, before.?BR>Reply "Before, err they, they made friends with other people who were in the complex err who you know we don’t necessarily, we didn’t perhaps necessarily know they were at the time but as, as the week went on you know it was obvious who they were and err you know these were people that they were playing tennis with who they’d had lessons with err apart from that, you know, obviously all, all the nannies we got to know err there was no-one, you know there was a few people who were slightly more in the periphery who were the holiday makers there that we didn’t speak to as much, I might have seen Gerry speaking to them but you knew them, they were primarily, you know, people from the complex who were on holiday there. Err so there’s nobody you know you wouldn’t expect them to be talking with on a, on a holiday.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "In that, in the situation.?BR>00:52:56 1485 "Did you see them in a car at all whilst you were in Portugal, prior to Madeleine disappearing??BR>Reply "Err we all arrived you know at Praia Da Luz initially in the taxi err apart from that I can’t really recall.?BR>1485 "That’s it.?BR>Reply "I can’t recall err seeing you know err going anywhere in a car.?BR>1485 "Is there anything that you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the material truth??BR>Reply "Err the, there are a few things but I don’t think this is the right forum for bringing those up.?BR>1485 "Okay. And finally, Mr PRIOR touched on the re-enactment earlier on, I think the re-re-enactment’s likely to take place either at the end of April or sometime in the middle of May. Do you see yourself attending??BR>00:54:14 Reply "I will do anything in my powers that could be helpful to shed light on what happened to Madeleine or bring Madeleine back, or to change the status that Kate and Gerry find themselves in. Though saying that, we have concerns regarding going back err for a re-enactment and those points that we have you know raised in a letter which I believe is being forwarded to the Portuguese Police. Err what we would like to see is you know some detailed answers to those points and we would also like to know that everyone else is taking part in the re-enactment because if everyone wasn’t there then it doesn’t seem that its particularly err worthwhile and obviously you know, problems with the press, you know, which would become very prominent the past twenty four hours, you know I think we would certainly want some reassurances err to you know, just, it’ll address people to look at the letter that we all sent and if you’re kind enough to answer those in detail then that is a, you know, an answer that we would make in light of what the response was to those points.?BR>1485 "Okay.?BR>Reply "But I wouldn’t rule anything out.?BR>1485 "Okay. Is there anything else at this particular moment that you’d like to say??BR>Reply "No.?BR>1485 "Okay. I make the time err sixteen twenty five.?BR>00:55:53 Male knocks at the door, DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room.
00:57:01 DC MESSIAH re-enters the interview room.
1485 "Just one quick question David, just, you know the, we talked about the phones earlier on.?BR>Reply "Yes.?BR>1485 "The number **, did you find that in your phone??BR>Reply "Err I, I’ll have another look but I don’t think I did.?BR>1485 "Can you just have another look??BR>Reply "Yeah.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "So its **??BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>00:58:06 Reply "Err I can’t see it?I can’t see it in this phone no.?BR>1485 "Does the name SG mean anything to you??BR>Reply "It does yeah, that’s my, err brother in-law, my other brother in-law, well my sister, sister’s husband.?BR>1485 "And where does he live??BR>Reply "Err he lives, the, the phone number which you’ve got which is the **.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "That’s, err, he lives there.?BR>1485 "Market Harborough??BR>Reply "Market Harborough yes, and sometimes it is easier just to chat and, you know if they were out and about on his mobile, he uses that one more, so I’m more likely to chat with my sister.?BR>1485 "Does he work in London at all??BR>Reply "He does yes.?BR>1485 "And obviously the calls on the fourth of the fifth at eight o nine and at nine fifty one and at ten fifteen, ten sixteen I beg your pardon, on the fourth, two calls and one text message. What, can you remember what the nature of those calls were??BR>Reply "Err what to S, to Ss phone??BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>Reply "Err…?BR>1485 "Or S called you I believe.?BR>Reply "Yeah, err I mean, the general gist of it was how, you know how are you doing you know what’s going on, err and is there any help that you know you can have, you know that was generally the gist of the text and things. I mean I can find exactly, if I can find them on my phone or I can let you have them, but you know it was just obviously my sister, she was very concerned and she was doing everything that she could to be supportive towards obviously Kate and Gerry.?BR>1485 "Okay, well thanks for that. Okay then, I’m gonna switch the tapes off now, it’s now sixteen thirty, just (inaudible) sixteen thirty.?BR>01:00:40 Male knocks at the door, DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room.
01:02:37 DC MESSIAH re-enters the room.
1485 "You thought we’d finished didn’t you.?BR>Reply "I know.?BR>1485 "(Laughs)?BR>Reply "Not quite.?BR>1485 "Not quite, no. Not long now to go. Okay, I’m just gonna go over these, this phone issue again.?BR>Reply "Yeah, yeah.?BR>1485 "I just, there’s just some areas that I’ve been asked to point out, or been asked to speak to you about.?BR>Reply "Yeah.?BR>1485 "Who lent you these phones that SA had organised for you??BR>Reply "Err I mean, S brother err is a gentleman called Nand N’s wife N had got friends out in the Algarve and they were just you know basic people who were just willing to help us in whatever capacity it was, whether we wanted a room for the night or anything and they asked is there anything we can do, err whether they could do, and err and that was, you know, that was one thing we said well actually you know err Kate’s phone’s nearly ran out, we’re sat, we don’t know how long we’re gonna be at the Police Station you know could, you know, can they, you know is there any way of getting phones to us just so that you know, we can, for communication. Err and err so that was, that was a capacity really err of people.?BR>01:04:02 1485 "And where were these phones, when did these phones arrive??BR>Reply "Err when did we get the phones? When we were at the Police Station, err you know as, you know I just asked whether I could just pop downstairs there was someone who’s brought us phones and they said yeah, so I quickly popped downstairs, got the phones, and took them back into the Police Station. Err I can’t remember if there was any power in them when we opened them up but err so then that was, you know, so the phones were just, you know because we hadn’t got any other, anything there, so.?BR>1485 "And what phones were they? Do you remember what sort of, what make they were??BR>Reply "Err they were Samsung phones, err and I think they were Vodaphone SIM cards. Err the actual model, I can’t tell you the Samsung phone but they were, something like the Samsung three hundred, something like that.?BR>1485 "Yeah, how many phones were there??BR>Reply "There was, there was two err and we ended up, err again, we ended up keeping one and Kate and Gerry had one, I think we gave the second one to Kate and Gerry as well after a while but we were err you know because they’d got credit put on to them so we were just using those phones rather than run up the expense of our own phones.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>01:05:33 Reply "So err yeah.?BR>1485 "So the two phones, you’ve kept one and gave one to Kate and Gerry??BR>Reply "Kate and Gerry yeah.?BR>1485 "And do you have the numbers of those phones in your phone??BR>Reply "I don’t, no, no.?BR>1485 "Where are these phones now??BR>Reply "Err as far as I am aware that they, you know, remained in Portugal, again…?BR>1485 "With whom??BR>Reply "With Kate and Gerry.?BR>1485 "So Kate and Gerry took possession of that second phone which you had??BR>Reply "Well, they certainly kept the first one, the second one, the second one, sorry, no I think that’s rubbish. I think I, I may well have got the, I might have got the second phone. Actually I’ve got a sneaky feeling when I got home I tried the UK SIM card in it and it didn’t work so I could well have got the second phone.?BR>1485 "So is it likely that this second phone is at your home address??BR>Reply "Err that is a strong possibility.?BR>1485 "So two Samsung phones.?BR>Reply "Yeah, yeah.?BR>1485 "One is, to your knowledge, still with Kate and Gerry.?BR>Reply "Yeah.?BR>1485 "The other one you may well have at your home address.?BR>Reply "Yeah, yeah.?BR>1485 "Did you use the phones often??BR>Reply "Not…?BR>1485 "In Portugal??BR>Reply "Not a great deal no, no, it was, it was, first of all you know we didn’t have any numbers in them already and then with being a Portuguese phone you know it was just a bit more difficult so we, if we ever used them, I mean which wasn’t often, we’d perhaps call Kate and Gerry using the Portuguese phone, but it wasn’t a kind of religious oh we’ll just use the, that Portuguese phone to err you know establish communication.?BR>1485 "Yeah.?BR>01:07:23 Reply "Err you know and the other reason that we, we had the, one of the phones is because Fiona didn’t have a phone either so you know, so it’s like she had the use of the other phone as well.?BR>1485 "Right, so out of the two of you then, who predominantly used that phone??BR>Reply "I’d say Fiona.?BR>1485 "Fiona??BR>Reply "Yeah.?BR>1485 "And has it been used since it’s been in the UK??BR>Reply "No.?BR>1485 "Okay, okay.?BR>Reply "And I’m just trying to think you know how much, you know the, the, I can’t remember you know obviously we were there for four weeks after but when the actual credit ran out, because I remember the credit running out and not being able to actually put anymore on even though it’s supposed to be quite straight forward but again, you know whether that was after, you know, three weeks of being out there or whatever I can’t remember.?BR>1485 "Yeah, how many times do you think you topped it up then??BR>Reply "I don’t, I don’t think we did, I don’t think I did. I don’t think I could work out how to do it to be honest.?BR>1485 "So when both of them arrived both of them had credit on them??BR>Reply "They put, I think they put, I think err I think they put forty pound credit or forty euros, you know, which seemed to last a lot longer than the amount of credit we were (inaudible) we were using our own err mobile phones.?BR>1485 "Just wait there a second I’ll just (inaudible).?BR>Reply "Okay.?BR>01:08:40 DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room.
01:09:00 DC MESSIAH re-enters the interview room.
1485 "All done.?BR>Reply "Okay.?BR>1485 "The phone, is it likely that I could collect it when I take you home??BR>Reply "I can certainly have a look for it and I can give you, I mean if you, if you wanted to have my other mobile phone with all the numbers in and you know if you can access text messages on that you’re welcome to have that phone.?BR>1485 "Okay, do you know where you’d be able to put your hand on it if you…?BR>Reply "Err the Samsung one, again, there was a Vodaphone bag that was knocking around, and that would be where it is if err I can find it. Fiona might know.?BR>1485 "Okay, perhaps you could give her a call or something.?BR>Reply "Yeah, yeah.?BR>1485 "Alright then, it’s now sixteen forty on this date.?BR>01:09:48 The interview ceased at 1640 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.

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