00:26:49 1485 "Okay, okay. So when you get to Portugal, tell me about the scenario from the time you left the airport to the time you was actually booked in at the Ocean Club.�?BR>Reply "Yes, yeah err the, you know we, we got the, the taxi which Gerry had sorted out err you know I say we got all the baggage in err you know from the seat, the car seating we were just trying to work out what the best options and where to put the children into the taxi. We then had the journey from the airport to Praia Da Luz and err you know again very straight forward err yeah I can’t remember how long it took whether it be forty minutes or, or whatever. Err we arrived there, there was a little bit of difficulty actually finding err where we needed to be err at the err Ocean Club. Yeah I seem to, we had some texts I think in the, you know with err Russell and Matt, you know where were they, what were they up to and you know the rooms and etcetera. We then, we finally found the err the reception at the Ocean Club which was you know err geographically slightly different distance from where we were err staying err and then we were met err at the reception there. Again, I can’t remember who err met us, we gave err you know we picked up err you know so we got a letter and we were, we then went back on to the err transport which took us down to the rooms but I think you know there was either one or two of the Mark Warner representatives and then we you know we then went to the rooms that we were allocated and err you know obviously err Russell, Jane and Matt and Rachael were already err in their rooms and then we just kind of looked at the sheets and oh that’s where our room is, we found the room and Kate and Gerry then went off err to their room. Err we, you know we’d kind of meet up and have a chat about what’s going on there you know and that’s how we arrived at the rooms.�?BR>00:29:04 1485 "Okay, tell me about your room.�?BR>Reply "Okay.�?BR>1485 "Where it was, or…�?BR>Reply "We, yeah we were, we were slightly different to the other three apartments err we were, we were upstairs err we, you know the other parties were all err in the apartments downstairs, err you went in through the, you know, the door into the apartment which took you into the living area. Err in the living area slightly to the right was the dining room, all open plan, and there was a patio doors you know which led out to the balcony. Err if you turned right immediately into the apartment there was the, err the kitchen, err if you went into the main living area and turned left that took you to the, err bedrooms and the bathroom. The first on the left was one of the bedrooms as you’re walking along and then you had, going in an anticlockwise direction, there was the, err the bathroom and then the next room you know anticlockwise was the other bedroom. Err and then there was the, obviously the lounge part, there was the television, there was err, err a sofa in there which was a sofa bed which is where Dianne err slept and I say then there was a balcony with a sliding doors which led out to the balcony. Err so that’s pretty much the, the apartment.�?BR>00:30:33 1485 "How good are you at sketching?�?BR>Reply "Err, not very good.�?BR>1485 "Otherwise it’s just a brief like birds-eye view floor plan of when you come in.�?BR>Reply "Okay. So if you were walking through the door err here, which you opened, as you walk in here the kitchen would have been just here, and there was a doorway just leading in, into the kitchen. This was part of the dining room, you know you’ve got the sliding doors which were, you know just situated here, this was the, err where the dining room table was. You had the err lounge part here, there was a television just over, you know, in the corner here and there’s another chair about there and then I think there’s the sofa was over here. Err there was a err piece of furniture like a dresser or a side cabinet there, as you came along here, I’ve drawn this bit wrong.�?BR>1485 "It’s alright.�?BR>Reply "The, the, yeah the first bedroom would have been you know kind of here. Then you had the bathroom which was here and then you had the next bedroom was here, so the doorways were in there, no sorry there and there into the bedrooms, yeah.�?BR>1485 "Yeah?�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "I’ve got the gist of that.�?BR>Reply "But that’s, yeah so.�?BR>00:32:07 1485 "Just mark on what rooms they are, you say that’s the kitchen.�?BR>Reply "So that’s the kitchen there, that’s the dining room, that’s kind of the lounge there, that’s the balcony, err so that’s bedroom one, that’s the bathroom, that’s bedroom two.�?BR>1485 "Okay so we have bedroom one and we have bedroom two.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "Which bedroom did your children sleep in?�?BR>Reply "Err in…�?BR>1485 "Or which did you designate for them to sleep in?�?BR>Reply "Yeah we had err Lily err was in bedroom one and…�?BR>1485 "That’s the one nearest to that door there.�?BR>Reply "That’s correct.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "And Scarlet was staying in with us in bedroom two. Err and as I say Dianne was in the lounge err on a, on a, you know the sofa bed.�?BR>00:33:11 1485 "Right. The door, the outside door that you entered, what sort of a door was that?�?BR>Reply "Err…�?BR>1485 "Sorry, weird question really.�?BR>Reply "Yes, yes.�?BR>1485 "How did it lock, and…�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "Was it secure?�?BR>Reply "Err you needed, yeah once the door was shut, you know you needed the keys to, you know to gain entry err into the apartment. Err I can’t remember whether we ever had, you know whether you can deadlock it so that you could get in and out with the door open, but essentially you needed the key you know, to use, if I remember to gain access into the, err into the apartment, and you know generally it was difficult because there was, you know we’d ask about more than one key, there was the only one key to the apartment so during the day time you know we left the key under the, the err there was a mat err outside, err you know that you wipe your feet on, and err you know that’s, that’s basically how we gained entry into it during the day time.�?BR>00:34:18 1485 "And your pat, you say your patio doors.�?BR>Reply "Mm.�?BR>1485 "So you were on, upstairs?�?BR>Reply "We were.�?BR>1485 "Is that the first floor or the second floor?�?BR>Reply "Err so ground floor is obviously the floor where you’re walking around.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "And then you went up one flight of stairs err to what I would call the first floor.�?BR>1485 "Okay, and how was that door accessed?�?BR>Reply "Err I mean essentially you know as you came out of the apartment we were quite close to err a lift err and you know stairs at the side so you virtually come out of that lift or at the stairs and then you would go into that apartment, but there was access err to other apartments with a walk way generally along the side.�?BR>1485 "Yeah, and once you’d got outside, what’s the scenario outside?�?BR>Reply "Err I mean if you, you’re coming out of the apartment through the err front door you, you know as I say you were close to the lift and elevator. If you went to the side of that there was you know like a balcony that you could then look on err you know out on the car park err and then you could see you know the main road, you know, beyond that and then there was err some other apartments that you could make out you know which were a reasonable distance away but you could, you know, see, you know you could make out people at that distance. Err and that was essentially it.�?BR>00:35:42 1485 "Okay. I’ve got another sketch for you to draw now but I’m not looking for anything to Rolf Harris.�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "Just a birds-eye view of your apartment.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "In relation to the rest of your group.�?BR>Reply "Right. This…�?BR>1485 "I know that you say that you’re upstairs and they’re downstairs.�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "If you could just sort of do a block of upstairs.�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "And then do a block of downstairs and then pinpoint where they were, if you see what I mean.�?BR>Reply "Okay, yeah. So, I mean, if you, if that was the end of the block and this is the ground, err sorry this is the upstairs.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "So I’ve got first floor on that. The err so if you were out on the balcony here.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "I mean it was slightly difficult because you were , you know, you couldn’t quite see down below, whether, sorry, then if this is the ground floor err block. It’s obviously it’s very easy to remember that err Kate and Gerry’s apartment was right you know at the end.�?BR>1485 "Yes.�?BR>Reply "Of there. There was certainly a gap in between one of the apartments and I can’t remember whether that gap was in between err Kate and Gerry’s and Matt and Rachael’s, or that whether it was between Matt and Rachael’s and Russell and Jane’s but essentially you know, this, sorry I’ll just draw these on, so that’s the front, that’s the front, err Russ and Jane’s were the closest to us so you know they were directly below.�?BR>1485 "Yes.�?BR>Reply "Then Matt and Rachael, so, so Russ and Jane, so Matt and Rachael were either next door to Russ and Jane or there was a gap in between and then you had Kate and Gerry’s, you know at the end, but I can’t really give it any more...�?BR>1485 "Yeah that’s fine, that’s fine.�?BR>Reply "Yeah, so…�?BR>00:37:52 1485 "So the rear then, which is that side there.�?BR>Reply "Yes, yeah.�?BR>1485 "Have you got the pool in front of you then?�?BR>Reply "Yes, I mean look, looking, err looking out err the pool err was slightly off to the side but you know kind of that angle err but you know we had very good vision err of the pool and people.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "Err you know by the side of the pool and err yeah and in between obviously the, the apartments there was the back of the apartments where they you know you could walk out at which part of the apartment and then there was the walk where the alley way which you know then separated the block from the Ocean Club. Err so we generally, if I chatted to anyone it wasn’t usually when they were in the garden below us it was more, they would be either walking you know we’d be sat on the balcony and someone would walk by or someone was at the pool and we’d have a conversation, kind of thing.�?BR>00:38:48 1485 "Yeah. Just jumping back, I’ve got a little bit ahead of myself, the listening service I understand that you made your own arrangements in relation to listening, child listening?�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "What’s the circumstances regarding your listening arrangements?�?BR>Reply "Err we, yeah, had err got a digital monitor which you know we obviously we used back, back home. Err yeah it was very good, it was very foolproof, we were very happy with the monitor. Err it’s quite a high tech monitor, you could play tunes at the other end of the monitor and so you know when err Scarlet was very little we had that option to use that. So you know we had chatted about what we felt was you know reasonably err you know safe, and we say safe in the perspective of you know both our children at that stage were in cots, you know I think the two main things that you would be concerned about or you know obviously not retrospectively now but certainly before the holiday was whether the child was gonna wake up crying you or whether the child could get you know away from the area where they were. So from our point of view we thought well they’re both in cots, they can’t get out their cots and the monitor you know covered the crying issue. Err the monitor we checked you know that it worked and that you could hear you know from that distance err there’s, I think there’s a fail safe on it if it loses signal it start, you know the distance between the base and the err mobile unit err you know, you, you get red lights showing that there is, you know that the reception is being lost. So you know we did chat you know right from the beginning whether we felt that was, you know that was reasonable and in our assessment we felt that was reasonable. Err you know we, we generally stayed err in the room, no sorry in the apartment until the children you know had fallen asleep, you know and then, you know we did all go down together and err so yeah there was occasions where you could hear something perhaps on the monitor in the room while you were you know over in the Tapas area. Err so you know on the whole we, you know, we were happy…�?BR>1485 "You were okay with that?�?BR>00:41:22 Reply "With that, that scenario�?
1485 "Where did you, where did you place the intercom when you went?�?BR>Reply "Err the, obviously with the, the map of the, err the rooms err you know we, we tended to leave the doors open of the two rooms and we either left them, you know, usually left the monitor here. Err I can’t remember exactly where the plug point was but usually because we were, you know, if anyone was gonna cry it was more likely gonna be Scarlet but you could hear.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "You know but the, the distance between the two rooms is nothing.�?BR>1485 "Yes.�?BR>Reply "And err you know so it was virtually slightly closer to bedroom two but certainly you know, no, no distance at all from bedroom one.�?BR>1485 "Mm.�?BR>Reply "You know there were, you know the, the, the, you know as I say the quality of the err listening monitor was, you could set the sensitivity of it to you know whatever you wanted and you know we obviously had it on maximum sensitivity and there was no concern about you know we weren’t gonna hear them when they were crying.�?BR>00:42:38 1485 "What about the sliding doors in the apartment, what were they like?�?BR>Reply "Err the sliding doors were a slight, they were slightly difficult to lock and that was you know one of our concerns err when we were there and it was, it was quite temperamental whether you could open them or, or, or lock them, and err yeah especially you know sometimes we had the other children coming up there so it was difficult but there was someone on the balcony or if their children were to you know venture out we would keep an eye and you know explain to them that they shouldn’t be out on the balcony you know without an adult present. Err but obviously we tried to keep the err door shut when no-one was out on the balcony and err open if there’s someone sat out there keeping an eye on them. Err the way it opened and locked was again I think it was err like a, a, a lat, you know like a lever which went up and down and I just remember it not being the most easy to err work out how to shut and, a bit temperamental.�?BR>1485 "Mm.�?BR>Reply "So err you know so that was probably one of the slight difficulties with that room.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "You know, being on the first floor.�?BR>1485 "Did any of the internal doors have any locks on?�?BR>Reply "Err the bathroom did but I can’t remember the, whether the bedrooms did or not.�?BR>00:44:11 1485 "Okay. So the picture I was painting there was just to get a, for me to get a view really of…�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "Of what you were faced with when you got your apartment.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "Do you remember what number your apartment was?�?BR>Reply "Err four G? I don’t know, I don’t know. I probably would have said, well hopefully I would have said on my previous statement you know.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "But four, you know…�?BR>1485 "It’s what you can remember now.�?BR>Reply "Four G kind of rings a bell but I wouldn’t certainly, you know.�?BR>1485 "Okay, okay. So moving on then, we, you arrive at your apartment.�?BR>Reply "Mm.�?BR>1485 "You say that you’ve, that the bus has took you round, you’ve gone to yours, Gerry and Kate have gone to theirs, Matt and Rachael and Russell were already there.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "What sort of time in the day was this?�?BR>Reply "Crikey, err it was, I’d have said mid afternoon, yeah perhaps around three, four o�?clock err in the afternoon, still, you know light, still some time in the day left yeah to enjoy it, and again that was one of the benefits of that flight, it was a nice time that we weren’t arriving there at, at night, you know the kids would go straight to bed so you just had a bit of day light, you know just to see what the place was like and err you know just to make the most of that bit of day that you had left.�?BR>00:45:32 1485 "Okay. So now what I want you to do is talk me through the rest of your day. Try and, try not to leave out anything.�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "How menial it may be.�?BR>Reply "Mm.�?BR>1485 "If you can remember talking to anybody to the time you went to bed.�?BR>Reply "Mm, err I think one of the things that I remember is there was difficulties you know we was trying to get the cots situation sorted out and I can’t remember, I mean I’ve thought about this when, you know because I went into Kate and Gerry’s apartment right, you know from the beginning to sort out one of the cots because I don’t think they, you know, there was a spare one they, they’d had or just to work that out, but err you know during, during the day as I say I, its such a long time ago and all I can remember is we were you know excited, we were going into one person’s apartment, having a chat and seeing where they’d been, err you know but I must admit I can’t give any detail really err regarding exactly who we chatted to or what, the rest of that day. Err you know we, you know we all went err to Millennium, again I, whether it was the Saturday night or the Sunday night I’m not, I can’t recall.�?BR>1485 "Mm.�?BR>00:46:51 Reply "And err you know we all, you know that was the first group meeting that we’d had all, altogether but I’m sorry I can’t really recall more.�?BR>1485 "Mm, how long before you all went to the Millennium, I appreciate you’re all excited and, in your words, you’d gone into each others apartments, you’d gone into you know Kate and Gerry’s.�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "How long before you’d all sort of, all the excitement had subsided if you like before you eventually went up to, left the apartments as a group?�?BR>Reply "Yes, I’m really sorry I can’t say exactly what time.�?BR>1485 "No, sort of rough time.�?BR>Reply "Rough, roughly?�?BR>1485 "Rough sort of time span.�?BR>Reply "Err I mean, several, it must have been several hours because the girls you know were excited, they’re playing and everything, so I, I’d say several hours but I’m sorry, I can’t say any more.�?BR>1485 "That’s okay, if you can’t remember times…�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "During this interview, try and refer to time spans.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "That might make it, that’s a more of a broader…�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "Spectrum isn’t it.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "Rather than say from four till five if you say a couple of hours, you know, that will probably help me to build a picture.�?BR>Reply "Yes, yes.�?BR>1485 "Of you know the chronologic in your day really.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "So the period of time was a couple of hours from arriving to going up to the Millennium?�?BR>Reply "Err I’d have said something around two to three hours.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "Probably, roughly.�?BR>00:48:19 1485 "And you all went up as a group?�?BR>Reply "Err again, as far as I can remember we were all there, you know, it just seemed like the first, as I say as far as I can remember it was the Saturday evening we all went up there err you know you want to explore as well, you know this was one of the places that we’d been told you know err would, whether there was a reception there you know and we’d been advised to go there that night you know, again I can’t remember if that was on the information advice but that’s what we, you know decided on, and err you know just to see what it was like up there and you know you want to explore what the rest of the place is like. You know you’re already thinking you know where are you gonna eat, perhaps on other nights and err things like that, err so we went up there you know as far as I can remember that night and with the, with the whole group.�?BR>1485 "Okay. How long do you think you stayed up there? Again, no, doesn’t have to be times but more sort of time spans.�?BR>Reply "Err I thought we were there, you know a good couple of hours, it certainly felt, you know, err around that time span.�?BR>1485 "Mm.�?BR>Reply "Err, yeah just working out you know where we’re gonna eat and sit, sit down there and you know think there wasn’t gonna be too many people there right at the beginning err eating in the Millennium, and err you know its like where are the high chairs its all new err get them sit down then you’re all having a good chat you know you met up and err certainly you know two hours or maybe longer.�?BR>00:49:54 1485 "Mm, and when you finally left did everybody leave as a group? Or did you leave in dribs and drabs?�?BR>Reply "I haven’t a clue, I really can’t recall.�?BR>1485 "Did you go anywhere else that night?�?BR>Reply "Err I don’t think we did no, I don’t think so.�?BR>1485 "You didn’t go back to the Tapas bar?�?BR>Reply "No.�?BR>1485 "The first night.�?BR>Reply "No.�?BR>

1485 "Okay, and during, I know you say generally speaking you were all chatting and excited about the holiday, but is there anything that stands out in your mind that you’d spoke about on that first day?�?BR>Reply "Err, I mean, you know the fact, I think the fact that we were upstairs was you know, you know going back to my slightly embarrassing side of you know moaning so much about being together and everything and we’d ended up being put up, upstairs you know err so it you know it just felt like, you know whether I’d been opening my mouth too much and they put us you know above everyone else and whether that was perceived as any difference to the other apartments in terms of you know was it better to have a balcony upstairs and, you know.�?BR>1485 "Mm.�?BR>Reply "Slightly better view looking across at the sea or whatever you know...�?BR>1485 "The rivalry crept in did it?�?BR>00:51:18 Reply "Well not that anyone said that or anything but you just, you know again you don’t want to be, err whether they were placating us just to make, you know because I’d moaned so much.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "But a, but apart from that I think you know everyone had err settled in err pretty much err we could well have had a beer in the apartment you know earlier on in the day again and you know just, I can’t remember you know exactly, but you know everyone was relatively happy and unscathed.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "I think when you’re err commuting with children, flying and airports they all get very tired and grumpy and I think we all, were all quite unscathed err and we were just looking forward to the week ahead and you know what activities we were gonna do, so there was nothing really that stood out at all, no.�?BR>1485 "Okay. Did anybody comment about the listening service that night, the first night?�?BR>Reply "Comment? Not that I’m aware of, not that I’m aware of. Err yeah I say you know it’s a, you know it’s a reasonably sized group, you’ve got quite a lot of high chairs intermingled you know so it kind of splits the group up a bit and you know so if anyone else had that conversation then perhaps but it’s certainly something that I don’t recall. You know there certainly wasn’t you know any, I don’t think, there wasn’t certainly err a feeling of oh crikey this isn’t, err you know this is, this is not a safe place, you know as a, you know a small community you know we may have commented it’s different to err previous Mark Warner’s, whether that was that night or whether that was another night in that you know it wasn’t, you know what we’d all been on a Mark Warner before, you know we were all perhaps quite, it wasn’t quite as obvious you know as we thought that it wouldn’t be, you know like the other places, quite as self contained but there wasn’t still a feeling of err concern you know, we were, you know we were all, we were still very enthusiastic about err the holiday. I mean that wasn’t you know generally, you know if there’s something which is a miss, out of place then these things tend to get, you know mooted around the group so it wasn’t something that was you know really chatted at any great length if it was discussed at all.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>00:53:53 Reply "I think the only thing that probably became apparent about the Millennium where we ate was that that was a distance away from where we were staying and in terms of you know the logistics of getting from where we were to there with the small children and you know the pushchairs when some of them were perhaps a little bit old to go in the pushchair and wanted to walk, which it was just a little bit too far for them to walk. There was the, you know, the main, there’s a main road that you had to cross over which, well it wasn’t busy busy but you know, so that was, you know if there’s any discussion I’d have said that was probably the most you know err that might have been said that night.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "But I mean again, that doesn’t stand out majorly in my mind.�?BR>1485 "Yeah, okay. So the night ended, you’ve gone back to your apartments.�?BR>Reply "Mm.�?BR>1485 "Anybody back to each other’s apartments or was it just general…�?BR>Reply "(Sigh) err I’m, I’m, sorry I can’t, I just can’t recall.�?BR>1485 "Okay, well did anybody come back to your apartment on the first night?�?BR>Reply "Err you know, they could have done, but I can’t, I can’t recall at all.�?BR>1485 "Okay. I forgot to ask you, could you see the Tapas bar from your balcony?�?BR>Reply "You, you can yes, I mean there’s a, there’s a screen which is in the way err you know for a direct vision so if you were going from, from looking out from our apartment, you know you have the, obviously the gardens of the people’s apartments directly below us, then you had the alley way, then you had a bit of land, then you had the swimming pool, then a bit more land then you had the Tapas bar.�?BR>1485 "Mm.�?BR>Reply "But in between the pool and the Tapas bar there was some screening but you know it wasn’t to the stage that you couldn’t see through the screening. Err but to the degree of could you see who was exactly in the Tapas bar and where they were sat, it wasn’t that easy you know to make that out but you could see the Tapas area.�?BR>00:56:03 1485 "Yeah, I mean as the crow flies, how far do you think it was from your balcony to the Tapas bar?�?BR>Reply "Err I would have said about, about thirty metres.�?BR>1485 "And how long would it take you to walk…�?BR>Reply "To walk down.�?BR>1485 "From your apartment to the Tapas?�?BR>Reply "Okay, so I mean you, the majority was you know, you’d go down the stairs, you’d go round err through the car park, turn right, right down the road and go in through the main entrance, so you’re looking at a couple of minutes you know walk.�?BR>1485 "Mm.�?BR>Reply "Err from leaving the door to arriving at the Tapas bar err you know there, there’s a way you could go slightly around the side but I, you know, again in terms of time to get in, get in to the Tapas bar I don’t think it made a great deal of err difference.�?BR>1485 "Okay. So let’s move on to the next day, your first full day which is the Sunday.�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "Tell me as much as you can.�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "From the time you got up till the time you went to bed.�?BR>00:57:18 Reply "I think err from my point of view, you know I find it very difficult to recall the exact events you know err you know on a day to day err basis. You know I find it easier just to say generally what happened you know during the week than…�?BR>1485 "Well the first day you would have sorted out your activities wouldn’t you?�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "So if that helps you…�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "To at least get the first day out the way.�?BR>Reply "Yeah, err you know we, I mean the one thing that we, me and Fiona were quite keen on would be to err you know there was, on the water sports err side of things. Err we were keen to put the kids into the crèche you know for the morning, err you know we were gonna look, you know the, ours tended to sleep during the afternoon so err you know on the, again we’d have perhaps gone down to the water, you know the water sports area just to you know maybe to sign up for courses there, err as I say we were just generally interested in trying to err windsurf and perhaps go on the dinghies. Err other members of the group were really interested in you know the tennis side of things and getting the lessons but I’m really sorry I can’t remember exactly.�?BR>00:58:37 1485 "Where did you breakfast on the first day?�?BR>Reply "Err I mean we could you know obviously there’s the Supermarket, which wasn’t too err far away, did we all go up, I’m trying to think whether we went to the Millennium for the breakfast or whether we went to the Supermarket on the first day. I can’t remember, I’m sorry.�?BR>Reply "Okay, and you mentioned your crèches.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "Did you take your…�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "What time would you have taken them to the crèche?�?BR>Reply "I mean well Lily and err Scarlet you know, being the different age groups, were in different places and err Scarlet was down by the err the actual reception at the Ocean Club and err Scarlet, err Lily was up at the err Tapas bar. Err so generally Fi would take Scarlet after breakfast err which we you know we did often have. Again you know we stayed on for four weeks unfortunately after and you know we had breakfast in the apartment and it just blurs.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "One into the other, whether you know we were at the Millennium but I seem to remember that we would generally go to the Millennium. There was one morning I can recollect that err you know that Kate and Gerry were walking back and found it difficult because Sean and Amelie were, as I say, in the age where they wanted to walk but it was difficult to get them and I think they were, you know generally thinking that the Millennium for breakfast wasn’t probably a particularly a good idea, which you know I think more often than not we generally ate at the Millennium, err and then after we’d eaten breakfast there which, and again I think finished at nine o�?clock, we would then, you know after we’d finished breakfast try and get them down to err you know drop them off at the Ocean Club or at the crèche by the Tapas, then you know depending on whether there was anything going on that morning from the sporting point of view then you know we’d go wherever. Err you know mixed into the melee was you know we often went in the morning to the Supermarket to do a bit of a shop and you know with a big group that we seemed to get through things pretty quickly and err so as I say I’m afraid one day does blur into another, I can’t really recall specifics.�?BR>01:01:02 1485 "Okay. I understand that your apartment was like the meeting place.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "Can you recall that?�?BR>Reply "Yes, definitely. Err you know, I, I, it just happened you know the way it happened you know people just gravitated up to err to our room err you know it’s, I suppose some part we’d got Dianne there who is fantastic at you know helping, you know it’s a free set of hands whereas you know Russ and Jane obviously they’ve got two, and we’ve got two and so you know it was good that we’ve got someone extra to help out while you know someone’s preparing the food, keep an eye on the children, err so often you know we would, you know we’d con, congregate there at lunch time and quite often if I remember Matt and Rachael would bring Grace along and you know we’d eat there together. Err a lot of the time we didn’t tend to see you know Kate and Gerry you know it was more Russell and Jane primarily I remember, and sometimes Matt and Rachael and Grace but generally err Kate and Gerry would do their own thing err you know during the day, so that’s, but they you know they would still come up you know from time to time. So it was well used at the, that first floor.�?BR>01:02:26 1485 "Was it, I notice you say that you didn’t see much of Kate and Gerry and you that sparsely see Russell and, was it something that you discussed before the holiday that you was gonna all do your own thing in the day then just meet up for night time?�?BR>
....next part to follow

01:23:21 1485 "Okay. Just a general question about the resort, what was it like? Was it busy? Or you know, was there a lot of people in your, in the Ocean Club? The resort in general, was it busy?�?BR>Reply "It did, it didn’t seem busy err at all err it, you know it seemed very quiet. The, and you know, if that wasn’t the first week you could book it was certainly the second week so it certainly hadn’t err had many people there, you know chatting to Mark Warner staff they’d not been long err you know many weeks out there preparing and you know they, so easy for them I think with the number of children that they had because it wasn’t you know anywhere near capacity err for them. If you err its you know a beautiful place, beautiful beach and you know and you expect the place is usually a lot busier than that and it you know but it certainly seemed very quiet for that time of, well not, sorry, not for that time of year but just seemed very quiet but not, you know it was understandable for that time of the year. Err you know err the err the pool area you would never see a great number of people by, by the pool, you know the water was actually quite cold, you had to be quite brave to go in the pool. You know the Tapas area itself during the daytime certainly you’d perhaps see the odd people from time to time, err but it wasn’t, it certainly wasn’t full by, you know, any capacity. Err you know and the eating in the Millennium the first night, I say I can’t recall hardly any other people being there and when we had been eating in the Tapas bar there wasn’t many couples in the evening you know so the general reflection for the whole time was err there wasn’t that many people. Err you know there was some other couples that err Kate and Gerry had you know made friends with through the err tennis you know that we got to know a little bit as well and you know you generally tend to see the same people err but yeah it was very quiet err you know it was quite windy err you know which wasn’t surprising as I say already it had been quite cold in the evening but err so that’s really my…�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "Recollections of what the place, how the place came across but.�?BR>01:25:47 1485 "I think one of you commented on err England being warm while you were over there.�?BR>Reply "Was it? Probably.�?BR>1485 "Can you remember that?�?BR>Reply "Err probably.�?BR>1485 "Just have a quick check of the time. We’re gonna go for a break shortly.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "Alright?�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "I’ve just gotta check, make sure I haven’t missed anything.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "In this first interview and then we’ll close the interview and get you drink, alright?�?BR>Reply "Okay, that’s brilliant, thank you.�?BR>1485 "Did you actually offer to check any of the children? I know you say that you didn’t have to check yours.�?BR>Reply "Yeah, no I never, I never did offer to check. Err there, as much as I you know, know, knew all the children well I err I probably wouldn’t have felt, you know, bizarrely I wouldn’t have felt quite comfortable checking them, more, you know if I, if it was at home and perhaps one of the children wasn’t settling you know I’d go upstairs and go well you know could you be quiet but there I didn’t feel quite comfortable doing that, it just, you know if the child was crying or upset and not sleeping I think the first person you know at that stage probably…�?BR>1485 "Yeah. Okay at this stage I’ve got no further questions, as I say with how, how its constructed in phases, lead you up to you know, I’m conscious I’ve led you up to the third of May.�?BR>Reply "Right.�?BR>1485 "Is there anything, think hard, is there anything that we’ve discussed or we haven’t discussed that you feel you ought to bring to my attention now?�?BR>Reply "Err you know I suppose the only thing to reinforce is that you know at this stage you know we were having a very good week, you know apart from the odd illness here and there, there was just nothing upsetting the group, there was no unusual behaviour, there was nothing that was untoward about anybody there, err certainly Kate and Gerry were you know very happy, interacting well and the children were extremely happy.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>01:28:39 Reply "And you know we’d fallen, as I say we did vary things slightly but we’d all fall in to pretty much you know a reasonable pattern, framework of doing things and err you know everyone was enjoying themselves.�?BR>1485 "Yeah. Was there anybody around the resort or you know your, the Ocean Club in general that you weren’t happy with?�?BR>Reply "Err we, you know we did obviously retrospectively question you know who’d been in, in to the resort to actually work there. They, on one of the days they had some err gardening people which we hadn’t you know seen before and we you know we just wondered, you know, after Madeleine had gone err you know who they were and what their you know validity was if you like. Err the, I know that again, you know Kate and Gerry had had problems err with I think it was the blinds in their flat and the fridge and they’d had people in err you know into the flat, you know which obviously retrospectively was a concern as well. Err yeah that, you know who were those people, had they been checked out.�?BR>1485 "Mm.�?BR>Reply "Err but apart from that err there was nothing else that really you know springs to mind.�?BR>1485 "Okay. That’s it for the time being.�?BR>Reply "Okay.�?BR>1485 "I’ll check, once we’ve done this interview, I’ll check with my colleagues to see whether I’ve missed anything during this interview, alright?�?BR>Reply "That’s great.�?BR>1485 "But in the meantime I’ll stop this interview now and it’s coming up to, it’s eleven fifty four.�?BR>01:30:31 The interview ceased at 1154 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.
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00:22:37 Reply "It was just…�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "It was just, you know, there was, there just no, there was nothing that she did that I thought was unlike someone who had not had their child abducted and there was everything that I’d expect to be.�?BR>1485 "The way she reacted?�?BR>Reply "The way she reacted err you know obviously we were, we were interviewed that, that day and you know we had very little sleep, you know we were very tired, the interviews, and that’s my real recollections of that.�?BR>1485 "That period. Anything else?�?BR>Reply "Err, with any specifics prompts or?�?BR>1485 "No, just making sure that you know…�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "You’ve done, you’ve remembered everything you possibly can that’s all.�?BR>Reply "Yeah. I’m sure if I chatted more to you I’d probably remember more.�?BR>1485 "Well all I was gonna do is I was gonna go back to, I was gonna try and take you in stages through you know your recall just to see whether it could prompt anything else really, and what I want to try and do is go back to you know the Tapas bar really.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "Sorry, further back than that I want to go back to the beach.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "Because you said that you were on the beach, you was windsurfing.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "And you spotted Matt and Russell.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "On the catamaran.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "Something happened on the catamaran where Matt fell in.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "Do you know about that?�?BR>00:24:15 Reply "Yeah I mean that was a topic of conversation that we had at the table, you know, because Matt is the experienced sailor of the two of them and err Russell err you know hadn’t done a great deal of sailing and catamarans are not particularly easy I understand err to sail and err Matt had gone overboard and Russell then had to get the catamaran back to pick him up so that was err you know a story of amusement at the table.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "Err I didn’t actually see that happen you know.�?BR>1485 "Right.�?BR>Reply "But you know I certainly saw them out there, err on the water.�?BR>1485 "Yeah, what sort of time, excuse me it’s getting a warm in here, what sort of time was that that you saw them?�?BR>Reply "You know I’d say, I’d say you know roughly around three o�?clock but very roughly.�?BR>1485 "Yeah very roughly.�?BR>Reply "Err you know I, generally our girls slept in the afternoon say between two and four and err so that’d be the time that I’d have gone out there and I was out there for a couple of hours you know err the, I’ve done a great deal of windsurfing and you know the conditions were very good.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "Err so as I say we were out there for a couple of, I was out there for a couple of hours.�?BR>1485 "So the girls went to bed at, woke up about four, so you think it would have been after four that you’d have gone down to the beach then?�?BR>00:25:34 Reply "Err well no because I mean like usually like while they were asleep it’s a good time to do you know activities and you know someone could stay behind, look after the children so err Fiona, and I think Dianne, had both stayed behind and you know I said well I’ll go get a, get a…�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "A windsurf.�?BR>1485 "Right. So did you walk down to the beach on your own then?�?BR>Reply "Yes, as far as I remember I think Matt and Russ had gone, gone already, gone down before me.�?BR>1485 "And did you see anybody on your way down?�?BR>Reply "Err…�?BR>1485 "Your group or other?�?BR>Reply "I can’t remember.�?BR>1485 "And when you got down to the beach was the beach busy?�?BR>Reply "Err not, not horrendously, no. I mean there was some other windsurfers there err you know I remember when I was out windsurfing you know seeing other people windsurfing as well.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "But you know, again, it wasn’t particularly busy.�?BR>1485 "How long do you think you stayed out there for?�?BR>Reply "I think I was probably out there the best part of a couple of hours.�?BR>1485 "So we’re saying around about six o�?clock ish, would that be about right?�?BR>Reply "Err well I mean we were probably, as I say, windsurfing I was windsurfing around two to four o�?clock, then we had the girls come down so there was some playing on the beach.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "Then we went for something to eat and then we left the err restaurant and err you know, I hadn’t got a watch on me, I hadn’t you know I hadn’t got a mobile, all we had was the camera which you know as I say the time on that suggests that we left the restaurant err you know after six o�?clock, so you know just working backwards…�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "The time that I thought we’d finished you know…�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>00:27:23 Reply "Water sports would be around four o�?clock, then a bit of time on the beach and then you know your meal, which would take an hour, which seems to fit in with the, you know the timescale of events.�?BR>1485 "So who did you leave on the beach when you, when you walked up?�?BR>Reply "When, when we left we didn’t leave from the beach we left from the err restaurant.�?BR>1485 "The restaurant, but who did you leave at the restaurant?�?BR>Reply "Err the, basically the err the children and the ladies that stayed behind, err just to finish off there and err and then we, you know Fiona said to me we’d better get going if you’re gonna miss all the, you know any activities err so we said right well we’ll go, we’ll get up there and you know play tennis.�?BR>1485 "Yeah, when you say the ladies, that was Fiona and…�?BR>Reply "Yeah, Jane and Rachael, yeah.�?BR>1485 "Right, and the respective children?�?BR>Reply "Yes, yes.�?BR>1485 "Okay, and who did you walk back to the Ocean Club with?�?BR>Reply "Err there was Russell and Matt. As I say I can’t, can’t remember what hap, whether they went, we peeled off and they carried up to the apartment and I said oh I’ll just go down to the tennis, you know, I can’t remember exactly what happened at that stage, but I know I went and spoke to Gerry.�?BR>1485 "So on your way back what route would you take on the way back? There’s a map for this one.�?BR>Reply "Yeah, we…�?BR>00:28:40 1485 "Unfortunately the map doesn’t show the beach, it’ll show the proximity going back to the apartment block. Which way is the beach? If you imagine, or if you look at, that’s, there’s the Tapas.�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "So that would have been Kate and Gerry’s apartment.�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "So you’d walk round there from your Tapas, so which way would the beach be?�?BR>Reply "Okay, so, sorry that’s the, is this the Tapas here?�?BR>1485 "That’s the Tapas yeah.�?BR>Reply "Yeah, so our apartments would be about here so err you know we went, crikey, the Ocean Club is there I presume, does that say Ocean Club? Yeah.�?BR>1485 "The Ocean Club garden.�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "I think that’s the Ocean Club in general.�?BR>Reply "Yeah the main reception part sorry, so we, we would walk past here, this is the Supermarket I presume, here.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "You’d walk past that way. There’s err you know we’d go along past the err Ocean reception down and then there was a road which kind of like quite a steep road which had err there was a small Supermarket there.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "There was err a pub there which I think was quite popular with err you know locals and holiday makers and that, that road led you right down and at the end of the road is the err restaurant. Now, you know, I wouldn’t say every time we walked back that way, there, there was another route that you, we, we cut through as well but I, I’m pretty sure that night we walked up that way and round because I know we walked past the Ocean Club.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>00:30:14 Reply "But err…�?BR>1485 "Okay, but how long would that generally take you?�?BR>Reply "How long? Err I’d say, yeah ten fifteen minutes walk.�?BR>1485 "So when you got back to the apartments or the complex.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "There’s the tennis courts there.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "So presumably what you’re saying is you walked up with Matt and Russell.�?BR>Reply "Yeah, yes.�?BR>1485 "That way.�?BR>Reply "As far as I can remember…�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "That, you know, I just seemed to have got the images of walking past the reception.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "Well the only way we could have walked past the reception is if we’d have gone that route.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "So that’s what I’m basing my err recollection on.�?BR>1485 "Did you go straight then to the tennis courts?�?BR>Reply "Yes, I think I did, I think I’d gone straight there to chat with Gerry just to check that, you know, what was going on and everything and then went err went back to see Kate after.�?BR>1485 "And what was Gerry doing?�?BR>Reply "Err Gerry had been, you know, playing you know tennis already, he was having a good err game and I think there was you know, and there were a couple of the other tennis players who had specifically gone out there on a Mark Warner holiday to play tennis and you know Gerry was, you know, getting a lot out of the week from the tennis and made friends with those people and he was having a good game with them. Err so you know he would basically be playing tennis.�?BR>1485 "Yeah, and at what point did you have the conversation with him? Did he stop the game or did you speak whilst he was playing?�?BR>00:31:48 Reply "I can’t remember, I can’t remember. I, you know, in my mind, you know, he stopped playing and you know but I can’t remember if I’m perfectly honest.�?BR>1485 "And how long did you stay and watch the game for?�?BR>Reply "Err all I remember is I was having a, you know, a brief conversation with Gerry, err you know and then you know I went back, I didn’t actually stay there for too long because of the time, you know, was ticking by err but again these are, you know…�?BR>1485 "Afterwards.�?BR>Reply "Yeah, recollections rather than you know whether there was anything in between, there could well have been.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "So where were you going then? Presumably you weren’t going to play tennis were you? When you left the beach, what was…�?BR>Reply "Yeah, oh yes that was always the intention and that’s what Fiona was saying, look if you’re actually gonna do anything tonight you’d better get yourselves up there and it’s getting quite late so that was, you know, that’s the reason we’d all gone ahead because we waited till the children had finished eating and err got in the prams and got up there, you know it takes another five ten minutes on top walking back with them, err then you know we’d have lost the opportunity. Err again, presuming that you know the tennis was usually around six thirty, that if you know, if we’re leaving the restaurant you know, quarter past six or whatever, around that time, that you know if we’d leave it much longer with it taking ten minutes or whatever to walk up just to start the tennis at half six, you know we were already cutting it fine and I think as it transpired we were playing tennis till you know even beyond there, it was quarter to seven, or around then and err you know if we’d have left it much later then we just thought well it’s gonna finish, so.�?BR>00:33:29 1485 "Right, were you going for a lesson or were you actually going to play?�?BR>Reply "We were gonna play, there was obviously me, Matt and Russ, and Gerry was making up the four, fourth err person.�?BR>1485 "But he was already playing?�?BR>Reply "Yeah he’d already been playing and that’s partly the reason that he kind of like threw in the towel early and said ah you know I’ve had, enough’s enough, I’ve had a good day and err but then we managed to get Dan, the pro, just to play a bit with us err you know so that made up the four ball err just for a little while.�?BR>1485 "So your four…�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "Was yourself, Matt, Russell and…�?BR>Reply "Well it started off with Gerry and we had a bit with him and then Dan played a bit.�?BR>1485 "And Dan, Dan replaced Gerry then did he?�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "How far through the game was that?�?BR>Reply "I can’t remember.�?BR>1485 "Sets wise?�?BR>Reply "Err you know whether we played one, you know again this is just, yeah usually we’d play a set and then change over so most likely it would be Gerry played a set and then left, that was most likely how it happened.�?BR>1485 "Okay, and it was at what point that Gerry said to you go and, would you mind checking at Kate?�?BR>Reply "Well I mean coming back from the beach I’d got no equipment to play tennis you know, etcetera, so I had to go back to my room to you know change into stuff appropriate for playing tennis in, and err so he knew that I’d walk up that by and past so he said oh why don’t you err, you know can you just pop in on the way, the way up, so it was on the way back from me picking the stuff up.�?BR>1485 "Right, so you’ve walked past, you’ve walked past Gerry’s apartment to get to yours.�?BR>Reply "Mm.�?BR>1485 "Got changed?�?BR>Reply "No, you know it was, again whether it was, in my mind it was on the way up that I’d popped in to Kate but it could have been on the way back, again, I’m sorry.�?BR>1485 "No, it’s okay.�?BR>Reply "For my vagueness.�?BR>00:35:21 1485 "But either way you’d have had to walk past because you go the roadside don’t you?�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "So you’d have had to walk past Gerry’s…�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "Front door twice wouldn’t you?�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "Is that right?�?BR>Reply "So, the reason why I think it was more likely that I did it on the way there was because I’ve called in through the err patio, it kind of made more sense that I’d have walked in through the gate and then up through the you know where the sliding doors are to say I’m here, rather than going up to my apartment, coming back down, coming past the apartment and then coming in the sliding doors.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "Because what I would have done is I’d have got changed and gone downstairs and then knocked on the front door because that, you know that would have made more sense rather than going all the way round and…�?BR>1485 "Yeah, course.�?BR>Reply "So that’s in my mind why it makes more sense that it was, that that was on the way up.�?BR>1485 "Right, so how long did you spend in your apartment before, I know you, I appreciate that you can’t recall whether it’s going or coming.�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "The likelihood is that it’s on the way.�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "How long did you spend in your apartment?�?BR>00:36:24 Reply "I mean again, we’ve you know, we’ve chatted about the timings and everything and you know looked at the photographs and you know, you know we were leaving about quarter past six from the err restaurant, we’d gotta walk up there, ten, fifteen minutes, conversation with Gerry, conversation with Kate, you know that’s another five, ten minutes on to your ten, fifteen minutes walk so you’re talking twenty five minutes, so that’s taken you to twenty five to, twenty to seven, well you know we were certainly playing tennis for a, you know the best part of an hour err so you know it couldn’t have been long that I was in the apartment, you know a matter of minutes.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "You know just to pick the kit up and, and then go back down really.�?BR>1485 "Did you have your own racquet?�?BR>Reply "I didn’t, no, I was using the, err Mark Warner’s racquets.�?BR>1485 "Mark Warner’s, okay. I just want to revisit the going and seeing Kate before we move on.�?BR>Reply "Mm.�?BR>1485 "Alright, and the reason why I’ve kept it separate is because I want you to just think now.�?BR>Reply "Mm.�?BR>1485 "And imagine, remember what you saw.�?BR>Reply "Mm.�?BR>1485 "Did you open the door, slid door? Or was it already open? Or…�?BR>Reply "Err I think it was already open, I think it was already open. Err you know, as I say, I walked up there, Kate was you know I say looking very relaxed and err I say a comment to her I said well crikey it’s early, early for them to be getting ready you know for bed, as I say she said ah no, I’ve had such a good, you know such a good day and afternoon err so you know, and Gerry’s just obviously finishing off playing tennis and err so you know hopefully try and get them down and as I say we were just, you know I, I know, it does sound bizarre but I just looked at the three of them and I couldn’t, you know they were just so well presented and so clean and immaculate it was, you know I was, and you know they just looked such healthy children, err you know, there’s, there’s you know nothing that normally…�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>00:38:36 Reply "Triggers in my mind like that but it was just how well that they looked and err…�?BR>1485 "Try to remember where in, where they were in the apartment.�?BR clear=all>

00:44:18 1485 "Okay, and when you finished, I’m just trying to put this in order here, when you actually, when you finished and you went back to the apartment, did you say anything to Gerry about, about the fact that his family were fine? Or…�?BR>Reply "Yeah, err yeah, I haven’t mentioned this before, but yes, yeah I’d certainly, when we met up I said oh yeah, you know everything’s fine there, you know probably along the lines of you know you’ve got a bit more of a free pass you know you can carry on for a bit longer, Kate’s fine without everyone you know all the children are, are happy, there’s no difficulties with bath time or anything so you know, without actually saying all that just conveying to him that you know I don’t think you need to err rush back, you’ve got a free pass for a bit longer.�?BR>1485 "Alright.�?BR>Reply "Err yeah.�?BR>1485 "So was that as soon as you got back to the, to the tennis courts?�?BR>Reply "Yeah that would have been when we got back.�?BR>1485 "When you got back to the tennis courts as opposed to at the end of the tennis session.�?BR>Reply "Yeah, yeah, yeah.�?BR>1485 "Okay, and was he fine with that?�?BR>Reply "Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, again, you know it’s difficult with cameras and everything, you don’t want to sound (inaudible) or anything, but you know he’s a very sorted person, a very caring person and that’s the kind of thing, you know he’s very organised.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "And you know he will make sure everything’s fine and sorted before you know the, the, he’d carry on and do something for his own benefit if you like. So you know he was certainly one to, he would have wanted to know before you know continuing.�?BR>00:45:45 1485 "Okay. We’ve talked, you’ve talked about you know, you’ve gone back and you’ve got ready and Fiona’s gone for a run. I’ll move on to, you know, the time that, because you’d already discussed about going, leaving the apartment, the, you know, the situation how you’d left your doors and you know.�?BR>Reply "Mm, yes.�?BR>1485 "The intercom and all the rest of it. I’m just gonna move on to when you actually got to the Tapas, you said that you passed Matt on the way down.�?BR>Reply "Mm.�?BR>1485 "Whereabouts did you pass him?�?BR>Reply "Err…�?BR>1485 "Can you mark, just…�?BR>Reply "Yeah, the err where’s, this is the entrance here into the Tapas area.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "Err my recollection was that we were just got, you know we were round there, I thought we’d actually entered into the Tapas bar to just…�?BR>1485 "Actually into the complex?�?BR>Reply "Just, just into the complex, but certainly we hadn’t made it yet to the swimming pool but it was just, just about there.�?BR>1485 "Okay.�?BR>Reply "Err yeah.�?BR>00:46:42 1485 "And what time do you think that was?�?BR>Reply "Err we were, we were just before nine, you know just before nine o�?clock err we yeah we went between quarter to and nine o�?clock.�?BR>1485 "And then you sat down, after the comments of course that you…�?BR>Reply "Yes, yeah.�?BR>1485 "Who was there when you got, when you got to the table?�?BR>Reply "Err well, as I say, Gerry was sat next to me, err on my left, and then there was this choice of where Dianne was gonna sit with err, err Matt and err Russell, so those people had to be there, Kate was obviously there, Fiona had walked down with, as well, and err and as for Rachael and Jane I, I cannot say a hundred percent that they were there.�?BR>1485 "What was Gerry doing when you got there?�?BR>Reply "Err I, again my recollection is we sat down and I just started talking to him, but I’m not sure whether that is entirely correct, whether he was having a conversation with somebody else before and then you know I just started talking but my recollection we started, you know, not far after we’d sat down we just started talking and you know, and I say we were just saying, you know what we’d both done and what a fantastic day that we’d had err you know and I know beyond the call of this interview but you know I’d had a lot of stress you know with work and over the last few years and you know it’s, it’s you know two, two young children it’s not been a particularly easy time and you know and for me that was the first day in many, many a month that I’d really enjoyed it and then Gerry had reciprocated and said we also had one of the best days that we’d had in many, many a month. You know that is my recollection of the first thing that happened on that table, but just, whether its because it was such a positive conversation that we’d had, which override the fact that there was other things that had happened before I wouldn’t like to say but in my mind that was the first thing that had happened.�?BR>1485 "Yeah. So did you notice that he got up to go and check Madeleine, or to check his children?�?BR>00:49:10 Reply "Yeah, I mean I, you know I know the people who left the table but I couldn’t tell you what order they left in and I couldn’t tell you what the time is that they left. You know, people have chatted about it, you know we’ve read about it and I’m not prepared to say well I think this is what happened because I’m sure my view’s been tainted by, you know, what we’ve read and what we’ve seen.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "Err but you know I’m, you know it’s, I knew that Russell, you know had had problems because Evie had been ill and he, you know, had left the table you know for err, err quite a few minutes because you know he was having to, you know he came back saying oh he’s had to clean the sheets and she’d been sick and everything and then there was the issue of the err them bringing out his food and they had to re-cook him, you know another meal and then Jane had quickly eaten her meal you know so that she could then leave the table so those things you know, I’m sure, you know, I know happened and unfortunately I can’t be any more helpful in saying this was the time, this is how long they were gone for. Err yeah I know that Gerry left the table, you know, I can remember him, I remember him coming back to say well you know, he wasn’t left, you know he didn’t leave at you know an unreasonable amount of time, it didn’t seem that he was away for particularly long, you know he did make some comment, which I know that if someone else was hearing as a group had said yeah, I’ll say yeah you know that’s what he said, but I can’t remember err entirely, but err you know, the, the conversation at the table in terms of other people leaving and looking at the children was along the lines of you know that it, and again it transpired later that I, that other people were look, you know were popping in as an extra addition to what other people were generally doing in terms of looking after the err children and err you know when Matt came back I remember him saying to somebody oh yeah I’ve looked at, you know and they’re fine you know and that was the way that the other families were, were working it. Err so, you know, apart from Russell who was away a little bit longer because you know what I’ve just explained before, everyone tended to walk up there, then walk back in a time which you would expect them to walk, walk up to the apartment and you know there was no long gaps between anything which you know wasn’t you know explained. Err, so yeah.�?BR>00:51:35 1485 "Do you recall Gerry coming back from his turn and then commenting about speaking to Gez?�?BR>Reply "Err I, you know again, I think I do, and I know that sounds very vague but you know again, just on the context of you know what, what’s been said about the conversation with Gez and this is a very important part of the story, it’s just difficult to say what you, you know what you believe to have happened and what you’ve read has happened.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "But I, you know I do remember some, something along the lines that he’d had a conversation err with Gez but again you know if you’re chatting to someone else and you just perhaps hear something at, at the side, err or you just look up and listen to a bit and then you move onto the conversation.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "Err but some, yeah.�?BR>1485 "Do you recall Jane coming back from her trip? From her visit if you like, shortly after Gerry had come back.�?BR>Reply "I don’t know.�?BR>00:52:39 1485 "And is there anything that sticks in your mind in relation to what anybody’s said when they’d come, apart from the one or two people saying everything’s fine, was there anything else that you can think of that anybody said anything?�?BR>Reply "Err I mean there was nothing you know, I mean, I mean when obviously Russell came back and explained what had gone on and you know with, with Evie, err Matt, you know, had come back and you know said everything’s fine. Err Gerry, you know I, as I say, I think he, I heard him mention that he’d spoken to someone on the way back and I’m not sure if people triggered my memory of that I could get that, that’s it. When Jane came back there was certainly nothing that she said that err you know led us to be worried at that particular stage, you know, the conversation was, was again, was you know oh Evie’s okay and it was a sort of shame that they you know, the situation there with Evie. Err and you know the, the jokes that have been going on earlier and err you know just, yeah generally nothing, nothing really stood out...�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "Had happened, err there was, you know nothing.�?BR>00:54:03 1485 "The fact that Jane had come back having seen a male carrying a child.�?BR>Reply "Mm.�?BR>1485 "Could you introduce that within your recollection?�?BR>Reply "I can, err it was never mentioned at that table when she came back, err when we went, you know, looking for Madeleine after err Fiona told me that she’d, you know, mentioned this to Fiona and you know so it’s, obviously Fiona’s statement’s probably more important from this point of view exactly what she said about it.�?BR>1485 "Yeah, yeah.�?BR>Reply "But I know from Fiona that this was mentioned and I think it was in the context that she was really worried saying anything to Kate to, to upset her which you know looking from, from people observing out, in at this, they’ll probably think well hang on, you think that someone’s just seen, but you know, again, it was a, a resort where there was a lot of children around err very, it’s a small friendly place and she just thought it was one of the parents who you know was perhaps, you know they’d be staying in one apartment and were transferring their child back to another apartment.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "And really didn’t think twice about it at the time and that’s why it wasn’t mentioned then. But she definitely mentioned it to me you know after Madeleine had been abducted and you know on the, the following day before she’d actually mentioned it to Kate and there was a, a newspaper report, I think it was in the Telegraph err certainly one of the newspapers anyway, that was sort of describing err Madeleine’s pyjamas and, and err Jane said that’s not right, how did they get that, well she said you know, that in, I don’t know how they get that information anyway, my recollections were this was what she was wearing and described it you know differently you know to what the, the, the press had, and that was before she’d even seen Kate so you know, the strength of that argument is just absolutely overwhelming, you know given the time frame err you know of when Madeleine must have gone, gone, that you know and for her to have described in detail the pull ups at the bottom of the pyjamas err you know the colours, you know and the timing is just, you know well, so.�?BR>00:56:37 1485 "How did she describe the child to you?�?BR>Reply "Err, the, from, again my, my recollection was more about the, the description of the pyjamas not fitting in with the description of the newspaper and if I was to say that she was carrying the child you know like this, rather than like, like that then, you know because again this is something that we’ve talked about, you know, if she was abducted, you know, sorry if you were carrying your own child any distance, to actually carry a child like so is, it’s hard work. You know, it’s much easier to carry a child like this and it’s easier to keep them asleep and support their head etcetera. So yeah that’s something we’ve chatted about since and you know I could say oh yes I’m a hundred percent sure she said that, that they were carrying the child like that, but I, again, I wouldn’t be, be accurate. All I can say is accurately I remember there was a, the err the discrepancy with the pyjamas and that, you know, and then she kept coming back to the turn ups which you know, which is very unique about the err you know, the pyjamas so that was, you know, you’re in shock, you can’t believe what’s happened, you know, you’re, you’re ninety nine, point nine, nine, nine percent sure that this is what’s happened but you’re still not wanting to believe what’s happened.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "But you know and then you’re looking for information to, to try and fit in with what you thinks happened and then you know when, when we knew that we just thought, you know, that is it, that is who’s taken her. Err you know and again, just for the record, I mean Jane, I’ve known Jane for a few years, you know, she’s an extremely strong character, she’s you know very reliable and you know she speaks her own mind and you know, and if that’s what she has seen then you know I’m a hundred percent sure that that’s what she’s seen.�?BR>00:58:41 1485 "Okay. Just in relation to, the reason why I ask you that is because Jane has saw what she’s saw and then she’s come back to the table and then you know one of the points I was trying to raise with you as well was did you notice anything different in her demeanour throughout the rest of the evening before Kate raised the alarm?�?BR>Reply "Err not, not really I mean, as I say my general feeling was about the problems that they were having you know, it’s difficult, you know err one of them was there and then the other one was going and err you know just the logistics of the situation, you know where I was actually sat, I wasn’t directly sat in a position that I was probably gonna chat to Jane therefore you know, the people who were immediately round me were the people more likely I’d chat to rather than chatting across, you know, quite a reasonable size table. Err so I don’t, you know I don’t really think, you know I, I noticed anything different about Jane but whether, you know, there was or there wasn’t perhaps I wasn’t in the best position there to, to comment that, as I say my recollections were more of the logistics, apart from with Evie not being well.�?BR>1485 "Yeah. Right, and again you’ve discussed what happened once Kate had turned up and the exact words that Kate had said.�?BR>Reply "Mm.�?BR>1485 "Once the alarm had been raised you said that you all got up and its, with the exception of Dianne, everybody ran to the assistance.�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "Exactly what did you do?�?BR>Reply "Err we, you know, we ran up err to the apartment, you know, with, with err you know Kate and Gerry err and you know for me, I just wanted to know, as I say, about the access to the apartment, were those gates open, err because in my mind was that if the front door was shut there was no, you know there won’t be, you know there was no way that she could have wandered out that way and nor would they have gained access in that way. Err also obviously the, the, the issue with the, the shutters had been raised, was brought up err you know on the way up as well and then I was asking about the gates being shut at that back and she said well both gates you know were shut, so in my mind, you know, that had ruled it out that Madeleine had err had wandered off. Err you know, Madeleine’s err, you know, was a very bright child and you know it would just seem so inconceivable that she would have wandered off you know, especially you know, when she was sleepy you know, we put that argument forward, but then you know sleeping chil, sleepy children you know don’t put, shut the doors you know behind them and child gates, you know, so, so that was my initial thoughts err and again you know we, we, I’m sure we went into the apartment, just looked and you know, incredulously you know well where, err where could she be, you know, you know we just looked in the obvious err places and then err you know obviously Kate and Gerry were just completely, you know, hysterical err you know at this stage. Err and then we just, you know then we went to do the sweeps around the place and I said, as I said before, I went up to look at our apartment to check, check the girls were alright and you know, and the actual order that this all happened, you know, it’s just err a complete eye opener up for us to see you know what other unfor, unfortunate people have been through just to what a destabilising effect, you know, that circumstances has on you or, and you know I, I think most people had a, you know, idea of, pretty exactly what happened that day leaving but you know after that I think people find it really difficult generally to say exactly what they did and when. Err but as I say we went err we went to the apartment and had a look round and then err I had a look quite earlier on to see err whether the, err girls were alright. I then at some stage went back to see Dianne and say look can you just leave the table, just go back to the apartment and then I had the sweep around the swimming pool where the, err the kiddies pool is, I went to, I just had a quick look at the tennis courts and just basically swept around the, the area just to make, make sure you know that, ah this can’t, can’t be what’s happened, she must have you know, you just don’t want to weigh up that option, it just wasn’t an option that could have happened but you knew it had happened and err, and then as I say we spoke, me, Matt and Russell, right come on we’ve got to have a bit more structure to this, err you know, I’ll, I’ll you know so he went off down to the Police Station and you know, you know we waited as I say for the Police to arrive and we, our, I think it was in between them arriving or when they arrived that I then went down and did that sweep of you know, right down past the Supermarket err going slightly to the side and then onto the front past where the church is at the bottom. I looked, you know I say I looked in all the rocks and you know just went along the whole beach shouting out and identifying people. Err the, I say, the Mark Warner people they were around there, we, you know as I say we also at a very early stage we knew it was important that we got a picture of Madeleine just to show people, whether it be local, but, but we were also imploring the err the GNR to you know close down and circulate this picture, err and that was, you know that was something that Mark Warner team helped us set up just in the, you know the Tapas bit there.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>01:04:57 Reply "Err then we were popping in and out of the apartment err you know having conversations with Kate and Gerry and err you know they were in communication with people back home err you know Gerry was you know speaking to family, they were chatting to err Paul’s the priest who married them and Kate was chatting to her mum you know err and it was just all kicking off around really.�?BR>1485 "You know when you went into their apartment, what was the scene like? I mean where was Kate and Gerry?�?BR>Reply "Err (sighs) I mean with, with err, you know I, Kate’s obviously very good friends with err Fiona and I’m, you know, very good friends with Gerry so more likely I’d have probably been with Gerry going through the options of what happened, or you know where could she be and what, what’s gone on here. Err you know trying to work out err what had actually happened err so I, I, you know we all went up to the apartment pretty much together. I think, I don’t know what, whether the other people came in or not, I can only remember me, Fiona, Kate and Gerry predominantly and the err lady from Mark Warner err who were the main people who were in the apartment. Err yeah I certainly went into err the doorway of that, the room where all the children were staying you know and Sean and Amelie were still you know sleeping, err you know and this is something that’s, you know, we’ve all kind of discussed you know amongst all the melee that was kicking off they were just sleeping so, you know, contently. Err and then you know the other area, the other areas I remember going into Kate and Gerry’s err bedroom with Gerry and he’d perhaps you know fling a cupboard open and just have a look and, ah you know and just shut the door and you know in a vein, desperate hope that she might have been err you know in, in the wardrobe or something, and then he, you know flung him, flung himself on the floor and just you know kicking the floor and just with, you know, she’s gone, she’s gone, err and then as I say, I, I, after that I can’t really say exactly, you know. We kept meeting up at stages in the evening to, to try and appraise the situation and you know what shall we do, err.�?BR>01:07:44 1485 "Did you hear Kate say to Gerry they’ve let her down?�?BR>Reply "Err, it’s a comment that I’ve heard her say since and you know, I can’t say that I specifically heard her say it that night. Err but you know, so many emotions are flying through your mind at that stage and you know certainly guilt was going through you know their mind, err because it, you know, everyone was like questioning themselves, you know, about you know what had happened and you know I know that she certainly was, those comments that she made along the lines of guilt for err you know, you know not being there for her, without a doubt, but specifically that phrase I wouldn’t, you know I can’t recall her saying that but again, it’s just a general underlying you know nature of what she was saying but it was along the lines that she, you know she had let her down, that you know when she, err again whether it was that night or another night she said well you know when she needed us we weren’t there for her, you know and that was, you know the general kind of things that she was implying.�?BR>1485 "Yeah, did she say that on the night then?�?BR>01:09:04 Reply "Err I say I don’t know, I know that she said those things.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "Or implied those things but I can’t tell you exactly what the phrases were that she used but you know she felt that they weren’t there for the biggest time in her life when they needed her.�?BR>1485 "Yeah. Did Fiona tell you that Kate had told her that Madeleine had woke up the night before?�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "On that night?�?BR>Reply "Err I’m sure Fiona did tell me that night err and said that you know she’d had a, a, you know that Madeleine had you know woke, had been crying the night before and err you know this was just, and that she’d mentioned it to her and you know do you think we should be doing anything err differently, err and you know Fiona mentioned that conversation and I’m sure, I’m pretty sure it was that night err that she brought it up. Err its, you know I, do you try and make people feel better because you think, you know, who, who in the world would have thought this would have happened to anyone, you know, it just doesn’t happen to you.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "Certainly and you know the last case of a child going missing like this was you know ten years plus, you know, in Corfu, and so you know when, when your child’s been crying, whether they you know they’ve have a bad nightmare or you know they’ve, you know they’ve perhaps have had a dream and they’re crying a bit and you try and you know, and that’s what you know we were saying to Kate really, you know those were the things that go through your mind.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "Rather than think ah well perhaps someone’s tried to get into the apartment, you know, but then you look back and then the enormity of what you said does, you know gain momentum. Err that’s it.�?BR>01:11:09 1485 "What I’ve got here is a few questions from the PJ’S because they wanted us to ask you…�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "A series of questions and there may well be duplication of what you’ve said but please bare with me.�?BR>Reply "Okay.�?BR>1485 "Alright?�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "Now you’ve answered the first one, it says what time did you return to the beach club on May the third as you were coming from the beach?�?BR>Reply "Right.�?BR>1485 "So that’s where you said that you come from the restaurant.�?BR>Reply "Yeah, yeah we’d come from the restaurant on the beach and as I say we left there about eighteen fifteen, err at that time.�?BR>1485 "And where did you go?�?BR>Reply "We went, I, I went up err went to see Gerry at the tennis courts.�?BR>1485 "So you were at the tennis courts, who did you talk to?�?BR>Reply "Err just Gerry pretty much, you know, whether I made comment to anyone else I don’t remember that, just, I just remember I talked to Gerry.�?BR>1485 "Okay, did you go to the MCCANN family apartment between six and seven? Well, yes you did.�?BR>Reply "Mm.�?BR>1485 "And if yes, why? You’ve already said that. Which route did you take? You told me that. Time? You’ve told me that. Did you enter the apartment? You’ve told me that. Who did you talk to? You’ve told me that. Did you talk to Kate? You’ve told me that. Did you notice anything unusual?�?BR>Reply "No, definitely not. It was err pretty much what I would expect, you know, go into the apartment, there was certainly no atmosphere, there was nothing, no disquiet between the children or Kate, you know it was just very normal, just happy children playing and ready for bed.�?
01:12:53 1485 "How long did the conversation take? Well you said between three and five minutes. Did you see the children? Well yes you did, you’ve said that, including Madeleine. What were the children doing? Well you’ve said that they were just standing around.�?BR>Reply "Mm, I mean they were interacting, playing a bit and you know they’re looking at me and perhaps have a, you know, but certainly…�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "Behaving normally for kids at that age.�?BR>1485 "As the person who organised this trip were you aware of the baby listening service? Well yes you were, but we discussed that a bit earlier didn’t we.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "Was this available at night? Was it, could you remember what it…�?BR>Reply "Well the, the, the point, the, the service that they, they offered there which was different to the other Mark Warner’s was that they had a, a drop-in err centre for want of a better description err for the evening. So if you wanted to go out for a meal you would take your child down to err the, the reception, you know, there’s an area down there you know specific for that where they’d have the, the nannies who would keep an eye on your children. You could go and have something to eat and then you go and pick your child up err after. This, it comes back to pretty much, you know, we’d gone there you know with the same kind of, originally we were hoping that it would be someone knocking the door, listening at the door and everything’s quiet and then move, moving on and that’s what we’d gone with the, think it would be. I did know before I went on the holiday that that wasn’t what it was going to be but we’d gone on there adopting that that’s you know how we were gonna most likely do it, well that was one of the options anyway depending on where the apartments were and everything. Now where the, where the drop-in err crèche in the evening was, was you know it was a, you know a fair distance you know from where we were staying err you know so, you know it wasn’t certainly where you ate down there and our, our complex or our apartments was quite a bit away so it was nothing that we’d really entertain. Secondly, all the children are, are you know very young and wouldn’t, would be sleeping at that time so it wasn’t something that we wanted to use because of the children, you know we’d want them to be sleeping and we, you know they wouldn’t sleep particularly well down there and you know we thought what we were doing obviously was, you know…�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>01:15:14 Reply "Was, was err reasonable. We were checking the children more often than, than Mark Warner would do, not only were they, it wasn’t just a listening outside the door, people were going in and checking the children so from that perspective we felt we were doing more than they normally would do. Err so from that point of view you know it, it was, you know, a bit of a, not say inconvenience isn’t the right word, but we were, you know we knew what we going, what, what it was going to be like when we got there and we thought what we were doing was, was more than adequate than a lot of the Mark Warner centres across Europe do.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "So err you know we were aware there was a crèche there but just for the reasons that I’ve just said that’s why we didn’t use it, so err you know and I know that’s something that’s been picked up in the press and obviously Mark Warner you know they want to put across that you know there, there is that option for people if they were to go to that Mark Warner resort.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "But, but you know.�?BR>01:16:14 1485 "Were you aware by the way that during the course of the week that Gerry and Kate had changed their methods of entering their apartment?�?BR>Reply "Err I hadn’t at all, no.�?BR>1485 "Right, the next question then from the PJ’S is, did you travel to Portugal with intercoms to monitor your children? Well you’ve said that you did.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "When you travel with your children do you always use intercoms?�?BR>Reply "Err, I mean if we, if we were staying at somebody else’s house err you know and they were in the loft or whatever and we couldn’t hear the children crying then yes we would travel with monitors. Err you know, you know, we, our child you know Scarlet was one of the youngest children there so obviously the monitor was you know, was extremely important, you know we wanted to see if she was crying because you know she wasn’t sleeping as well as the elder child so at that, that time, monitors were very important to us and if we were going anywhere where we thought that we couldn’t hear the children then you know, if they were very young then we would use the monitors but they’re now older and the question’s perhaps not as pertinent as it was err you know eleven months ago. But you know, certainly around that time we didn’t make a habit of you know going and staying in some resort or hotel and you know stick a monitor upstairs and off we went, it was, you know, we don’t go away that frequently.�?BR>01:17:56

01:17:56 1485 "Did you suggest an intercom to anybody else?�?BR>Reply "Err no I mean, I don’t, you know I, I remember having the discussion with Fi you know, Fiona, with what, what we were gonna do but I didn’t really discuss what other people were gonna do really, you know, which comes back to the bit in the line of questioning you asked me before, do you think everyone knew about what the babysitting was like, and I’m sure I would’ve said that. Err but no we didn’t discuss monitors with anybody else.�?BR>1485 "At the apartment you stayed in with your family at the Ocean Club have you ever left the windows and doors open?�?BR>Reply "Of the, of the apartment?�?BR>1485 "Of your apartment yeah.�?BR>Reply "Err we, well I’d like to think that every time we went out that all the doors were shut, we never knowingly left the apartment with the doors or windows open and you know, it was good having Dianne there because she’s a very good safe, safe for everything like you know she’d, you know, so not knowingly did we ever leave them and to my recollection they were never open.�?BR>1485 "Okay.�?BR>Reply "You know if we were in the apartment, different, but if we left it then no.�?BR>01:19:25 1485 "Okay. Okay David it’s time to get your phone out. Can I just confirm what mobile phone number you have please?�?BR>Reply "Yeah, its ******************, . This is not the phone that I had on the night. This is a, a new phone that I’ve had since then, quite a few of the numbers I’ve transferred across.�?BR>1485 "Right.�?BR>Reply "But I haven’t got all the numbers that I originally had on that phone.�?BR>1485 "Okay. I’m gonna go through a series of numbers and I want you to have a look in your phone book and see whether you can tell me who they are.�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "The first one, the phone number ends in, and I’ll just give you the last four digits.�?BR>Reply "Will you just hang on two secs, this is a bit, okay.�?BR>1485 "It’s ****.�?BR>Reply "**** SA.�?BR>1485 "And who’s SA?�?BR>Reply "Err he is err my, Fiona’s sister LW, that’s her husband.�?BR>1485 "And what sort of a relationship do you have with him?�?BR>Reply "Err a very good relationship. He is err someone that I’ve known for many years, we’ve been to their wedding, they came to our wedding, and err he’s you know a very good friend.�?BR>1485 "Okay. Then there’s a series of one, two, three, four, five, six text messages around about six p.m. on Friday.�?BR>Reply "The Friday, yes, err the, these were all in relation to you know what had been happening that, that, that day basically and to get advice from S. Again, you know, a bit like I said with err Fiona’s err father, you know he’s someone that I trust very well who was not with us at the time who would, who could think calmly and clearly and to just ask advice about you know what was going on, what were they picking up in the UK err you know what coverage was it getting, what, what, what did they know was going on, you know, could they feed anything back, we wanted to get any information that we possibly could, you know, that was the conversation.�?BR>01:22:21 1485 "Okay the next number is, ends in **.�?BR>Reply "**�?I’ve err I’ve not got that one in.�?BR>1485 "You’ve not got that one in?�?BR>Reply "No.�?BR>1485 "Again, there was a series of text messages around about the same time on the Friday the fourth. There was err two calls and then...�?BR>Reply "Around six o�?clock?�?BR>1485 "Yeah, well the calls were made between eight and nine in the morning.�?BR>Reply "Right.�?BR>1485 "And then there was between ten a.m. to six p.m. there’s a series of eight text messages, actually I’m lying, no I’m wrong, sorry, scrap that, there was two, there was two calls between eight and nine in the morning and then one text message, two text messages around about ten a.m.�?BR>Reply "Right.�?BR>1485 "Could you have been at the Police Station that, the following day around about that time?�?BR>01:24:38 Reply "I mean we didn’t leave the Police Station the following day until about eleven o�?clock so that, I mean if they were ten a.m. then that would have been before.�?BR>1485 "But that number’s not in your book at all?�?BR>Reply "No, as I say whether it’s just because it’s not one I’ve transferred across, because I’ve not got all of the numbers in this phone that I’ve got in my other one. I, I mean I can certainly get those for you.�?BR>1485 "You may well have to actually.�?BR>Reply "Yeah okay.�?BR>1485 "The next number ends in ***. Sorry, that’s S again, sorry.�?BR>Reply "Okay.�?BR>1485 "And again there was quite a number of text messages, so you text him again.�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "Its okay, they’ve put it in the saved box here.�?BR>Reply "Oh right, so it’s the same?�?BR>1485 "The same yeah. Okay, we’ll move on, this is a small number and it, it is ***.�?BR>Reply "So that’s a local number?�?BR>1485 "I think…�?BR>01:26:10 Reply "Yeah, I mean err it may well have been SA gave us a contact of someone that was a friend of the family in Portugal who err could get us mobile phones because Kate and Gerry you know hadn’t got any contact, you know way of contacting, their batteries were running out or something like that so SAhad basically said err you know there’s, there’s these people that we know there and you know that could have been it.�?BR>1485 "Or, because then there were two text messages sent about half past, about ten o�?clock on the Friday evening to that number.�?BR>Reply "Oh to that number, well that wouldn’t make sense.�?BR>1485 "No.�?BR>Reply "Err…�?BR>1485 "From that number to your number.�?BR>Reply "Oh, it could have been then, if they text me saying oh I hope everything’s alright, you’ve got the phones and everything, that’s the only thing.�?BR>1485 "Okay, next number I’d like you to look for please David is **�?BR>01:27:13 Reply "That’s gonna be my sister’s�?**?�?BR>1485 "** yeah. It starts with, it’s *…�?BR>Reply "Is it **.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "**?�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "Yeah it’s my mum’s number.�?BR>1485 "What town is that?�?BR>Reply "What town is that? Err Rochdale.�?BR>1485 "Rochdale?�?BR>Reply "Yeah, in Manchester.�?BR>1485 "And again, there was a series of calls which are self explanatory I suppose.�?BR>Reply "Mm, yeah.�?BR>1485 "The next number could well be another relative but I’ll check with you anyway, it’s **…�?BR>Reply "Yeah my sister’s.�?BR>1485 "Your sister’s?�?BR>Reply "Yeah, that’s Market Harborough.�?BR>1485 "Next number is a, I think it’s a London number, it’s o, two, o, seven, and it ends its **.�?BR>Reply "**? Can we just ring it? (Laughs).�?BR>01:29:09 1485 "(Laughs).�?BR>Reply "No. What time was that sorry that that was…�?BR>1485 "It’s about, it’s quarter past eleven or twenty three thirteen on the fourth on the Friday night.�?BR>Reply "At night?�?BR>1485 "Yeah. So my, my recollection of ** is a London number if that helps.�?BR>Reply "Yeah, I’ll just have a little look. I, I can’t remember, I’ve got friends that are down in London which I haven’t got her number in here, whether she saw it and rang it I don’t know. Was it a long, long call or?�?BR>1485 "Err, yeah it was quite a long call.�?BR>Reply "Right, okay.�?BR>1485 "But you actually called the number.�?BR>Reply "Yeah, okay.�?BR>1485 "Okay, the next number is, it’s a mobile number and it ends in **�?BR>Reply "Mobile number **?�?BR>1485 "Yeah, yeah. **, and it ends in **.�?BR>01:31:16 Reply "Err,**�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "LL, whose a, you know, a friend of the family’s.�?BR>1485 "And what was the nature of the, it was a text message at quarter past eight, err quarter past six on the fourth.�?
Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "Sent, I think it was sent from them to you.�?BR>Reply "Yeah, it would have been oh yeah, seen, seen what’s happened out there, are you okay, you know I presume.�?BR>1485 "Okay the final one is, well it ends in , **.�?BR>Reply "**�?The other thing is, is that err Fiona was using my phone out there, she hadn’t got her phone with her so some of these calls may be…�?BR>1485 "This one’s a call.�?BR>Reply "But if she got the number and the put it in, she might know what it is, but yeah.�?BR>1485 "Yeah, yeah I accept that.�?BR>Reply "**. Sorry ** was it?�?BR>1485 "**.�?BR>Reply "Let’s have another look, no I don’t think I’ve got that one.�?BR>1485 "Okay.�?BR>Reply “It’s quite close together all this to all this, but no I can’t see that one.�?BR>1485 "Alright, okay well that’s the end of the phone traffic, one fin, one question or one person I’d like to speak to you about is Yvonne MARTIN. Do you know a person called Yvonne MARTIN?�?BR>01:34:03 Reply "Yvonne MARTIN?�?BR>1485 "Social Worker.�?BR>Reply "Right. Oh, okay, err there was a lady who was there on the err when me, when me and Kate were waiting on the err morning you know after Madeleine had disappeared err there was err a photographer who was living in the area who err approached us and was just saying ah I used to work for the Daily Mirror, he gave his card and then this woman came up and started err chatting to us who err essentially just said ah I’ve got many years of experience you know and just started to really try and again force their selves in the situation a bit rather than just saying look I’m around if you need me err you know, so basically I just said it wasn’t you know appropriate at the time, could she leave us alone and err but I must admit I didn’t know what her, that was you know, that was, and she was, you know she said she was trained for many years as a Social Worker and was out there now err and was offering her help, but not in a particularly helpful way and she appeared you know, and that was on the you know the morning, I don’t know somewhere perhaps between nine and ten o�?clock in the morning. Err you know I’m sure, sure she’d been at, you know, she popped in there and you know she was around the area, she was seen again, but I mean I didn’t have any more contact with her then but at the time it wasn’t particularly helpful. Err I can’t really say any more than that.�?BR>01:35:47 1485 "Did you know her before that meeting?�?BR>Reply "Err no.�?BR>1485 "Did you speak to the MCCANN’S about it?�?BR>Reply "Err we, yeah we spoke in the context of you know that was completely inappropriate the way that she was trying to deal with it, it’s like she was trying to council Kate there and then in the thick of, you know, they’re still trying to establish what’s going on and what was happening err so you know I spoke to, you know I’m sure I mentioned her to Kate and Gerry you know within a short space of time, you know within twenty four hours of it happening. Err you know, just an example I, you know I was with Kate for quite a number of hours where I was sat with her at the err Police Station in Portimão and everything and you know weeks later she said who was I sat with, you know, and it was that, its that kind of thing you know I’m sure you know I spoke to them about it there and then within twenty four hours but err you know nothing was really mentioned a great deal about her later on or you know it was the, the, you know pretty much you know the conversation was dealt, you know dealt with it there and then and it wasn’t, you know, perhaps I mentioned it to the others saying you know and if she popped up here and there you know other people might have mentioned her but she wasn’t something that kind of like was the focus of the conversations that we had subsequently.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>01:37:15 Reply "Err for that morning.�?BR>1485 "Did you advise the MCCANN’S to turn to her?�?BR>Reply "Not at all, no.�?BR>1485 "Not at all?�?BR>Reply "Not at all. She was someone I’d certainly say to, to keep clear of you know and I, and I think pretty much I was saying look you know, appreciate your concern at this stage but you know it’s not the right time to be talking to her, if you want to leave a card then you know perhaps there might be a time in the future but you know can you just leave us please, and that was you know the basics of the conversation that I had with her. Err you know her timing was just completely off, err you know there was, I say there was someone else who visited on the night that she was abducted, I think she was from the upstairs and she was again you know trying to say there, there Kate, you’re alright, and again it was just completely inappropriate timing.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "I didn’t think there was anything sinister about it I just thought it was people who didn’t really perhaps have an insight into you know what has gone on and what was good timing and what wasn’t. I never really thought anything much more about either of them.�?BR>1485 "Okay, there’s no more questions at this stage.�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "What I’m gonna do is I’m gonna take a short break, just take a bit of a coffee break.�?BR>Reply "Yeah, yeah.�?BR>1485 "And then come straight back in with Gerry and Kate’s questions.�?BR>Reply "Right.�?BR>1485 "Alright?�?BR>Reply "Yeah, okay.�?BR>01:38:42 1485 "Just before I finish, what we’ve been talking about on this section of the interview, is there anything that you feel you want to add that may be pertinent to the investigation?�?BR>Reply "Again, just to you know summarise in that you know not many people find themselves in a situation like that and the way that Kate and Gerry were, there was nothing to suggest that there had been any foul play. They behaved so much as I would expect someone in the situation they were in and the way that their moods had changed from you know complete calm and serenity and enjoyment, just turned completely to you know distraught and you know that wasn’t acting, that wasn’t anyone, that was just pure grief of the situation that they found themselves in.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "And you know and the change was like that, it wasn’t you know, err I don’t think there’s anything else I’d like to add at this stage.�?BR>1485 "Okay that’s fine, okay. It’s two fifty nine, or fourteen fifty nine and I’ll stop now
01:40:00 The interview ceased at 1459 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.