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Grace : In Favor of Argument
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 Message 1 of 15 in Discussion 
From: joie  (Original Message)Sent: 7/3/2005 3:18 AM

~~ In Favor of Argument ~~

So many people think that it is wrong to ‘argue�?the Scriptures. But this is a false notion. It is very Scriptural to argue for the truth of the Word. So, because of so many being uneasy about this, I decided to bring forth the Word on this subject.

An English dictionary meaning of PERSUADE--- To move by argument, entreaty, or expostulation to a belief, position, or course of action. To plead with urge.

ARGUE: --- Give reasons for or against something. #2---to contend or disagree in words--dispute-- to persuade by giving reasons.

ARGUMENT; Quarrel, disagreement.

Strong’s Dictionary on PERSUADE---#3982(gk)---- To convince by argument true or false.

CONTEND; (Eng. D.) #1---struggle- to strive in debate: argue.

Strong’s on dissension--#4714(Greek)--- Controversy (uproar).

Eng. D. on dissension--- esp. partisan & contentious quarreling.

DISPUTATION; action of disputing verbal controversy. #2. Provoking debate.

Now that is enough ‘meanings�? This is the Scripture on it.

(In order to shorten the message, I will only give the verses and partial quotes)

11Cor. 5:11---...we PERSUADE men...

The reason this is important is to help all find the truth---Heb.10: 31---It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Act 15:1-7---Acts 15

1. And certain men who came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

2. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

3. And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

4. And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

5. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

6. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

7. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

This shows the apostles having large amounts of ‘dispute, quarreling, and disputation with each other over keeping the Law of Moses.

Job 23:1-7----A righteous man can come to God’s seat and dispute with him---v6&7---this brings us strength and deliverance from him.

Acts 9:29--- 29. And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him.

Paul spake bodly in Jesus Name and disputed against the Grecians.

Acts 17:17--- Paul disputed in the synagogue with Jews and devout persons and in the market daily.

Acts 6:9---Shows Stephen disputing in the synagogue with quite a few people.

Acts 19:8-- 8. And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

9. But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.

-Shows Paul disputing in the synagogue for three months and DAILY disputing in that school. Now this proves that Paul debated -- augured--disputed every single day to try to persuade people of the truth.

It is important to do these things IF you know the truth. To say that debating and disputing is wrong** would be to accuse Paul of evil. And also it would be to call the Word of God a lie, for that is what we are reading which says to dispute, argue, debate every day.

V9---shows him disputing daily in a school.

V10---And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they, which dwelt in Asia, heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

Now, see that Paul’s disputing daily for two years in that school and synagogues resulted in all them in Asia hearing the gospel. So, I draw from that that it must be a very good thing to dispute (argue) the word with people.

CONTEND: Eng. D. ---#1.struggle --to strive in debate: argue.

Jude 3: Ye should earnestly CONTEND for the faith once delivered to the saints

Micah 6:1---The Lord saith: arise and CONTEND before Mt. and hills. (See even in the OT. They were told to contend for the Word.  It is a command.

Acts 11:2--- And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem they that were of the circumcision CONTENDED with him.

Then Peter told them just how it happened. He contended right back.

Acts 15:39---And the CONTENTION was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus; And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God.

Here are two great men of God, Paul and Barnabas, arguing so hard with each other over Mark, that they separated from each other. But, as we see in the Word, this was the will of God; for Paul and Silas did a great work together.

Nehemiah 13:11---Then contended I with the rulers, Why is the house of God forsaken?

V17---Then I CONTENDED with the nobles of JUDAH, and said What evil thing is this that ye do, and profane the Sabbath day?

V25---And I CONTENDED with them, and cursed them, and smote certain of them, and plucked off their hair, and made them swear by God, saying, Ye shall not give your daughters unto their sons, nor take their daughters unto your sons, or for yourselves.  [wow.  Nahemiah, you sure are being a bad boy;  these people today will call you of the devil.]

Here, again in the OT. We find that men of God CONTENDED for what they knew to be true. In v 25---we find that Nehemiah even resorted to some little bit of violence over their marrying heathens.

So, I conclude from all this that it is not only all right, but also necessary for us to ‘argue�?for the faith once delivered to the saints.

By: Jo Smith

p.s.  Upon this message, I rest my case.  It is RIGHT to argur for the truth.  It is necessary.  Now let those you claim it is wrong, take the Word and prove it.

If you say it is wrong, then, all these men of God in the Word, were wrong and the Word is teaching us wrong stuff!



First  Previous  2-15 of 15  Next  Last 
Reply
 Message 2 of 15 in Discussion 
From: joieSent: 7/3/2005 3:21 AM
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameClaudia5226</NOBR> Sent: 5/13/2005 7:27 AM
Hi there Jo, (and everyone)  I agree that there is nothing wrong with discussion, trying to persuade a person to see a point of veiw ect. and that it is encouraged in the bible. I,  for one, love a good debate.    But I think the key lies in maintaining respect and a level-headed, fair / reasonable attitude in  the discussion.and knowing when to walk away from it, (Titus 3:9) even if we feel we may be right in what we are trying to put across.
 
I find it useful to have a quick prayer / chat with God to invite him into my heart and to help me maintain a good attitude, because sometimes there are those could can be quite arrogant and just plain rude. And,  sometimes,  I may not be aware of my own shortcoming which mugh lead me to be unreasonable too.It just helps me. . Anyway, that's me for now.
 
Gods blessing in Jesus mane 
claudia

Reply
 Message 3 of 15 in Discussion 
From: joieSent: 7/3/2005 3:22 AM
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameClaudia5226</NOBR> Sent: 5/13/2005 7:31 AM
Oh dear,  what spelling errors. That's what comes with trying to type to fast and not proof reading properly before posting.  LOL
 
Gods blessings in Jesus name
claudia

Reply
 Message 4 of 15 in Discussion 
From: joieSent: 7/3/2005 3:23 AM
From: joie Sent: 5/14/2005 10:49 PM
Hello, Claudia.
Thank you for your input.  I fully agree.  {and I certainly do the same,  write too fast and make mistakes, then send them with the errors.  It truly matters not.  Those of us who have a good attitude [lol] overlook it and know what you mean.
 
those who love to make trouble and criticize, sometimes love to point out the errors [as if they never make any]. again, lol.
 
I truely cannot spell worth a flip. But I get by.
 
There are VERY FEW people who have an 'open mind' to anything except what they have been brain-washed to believe.  They flat will never listen to anything different.  This is the cause for the trouble when a debate is in progress.  Most people that I speak with, take off and run at the very first statement.  They cannot take the truth.
 
They will not even try to defend their doctrine with the Word of God, for indeed they know it is not written.  Yet they still fully believe it, for their 'preacher' has drilled the lies into their head.
 
Only those who have an open mind, and is willing to sit down together and discuss the Word in a 'seeking' manner, and let the Word of God settle all questions, then and only then, will they become the true children of God.
 
Arguring is one of the best ways to get people into the truth.  By arguring, I mean putting forth your thoughts and backing them up with the Written Word of God.  I do NOT MEAN FUSSING AND FIGHTING.
 
God bless you, and I am so glad to see you here.
 
Jo


Reply
 Message 5 of 15 in Discussion 
From: joieSent: 7/3/2005 3:24 AM
From: <NOBR>MSN Nickname®Larry_W_B_1©</NOBR> Sent: 5/14/2005 11:04 PM
Hello, Claudia. Good to see you posting.
 
I used to spell pretty good till I got to messing with joie. lol. Now I can't spell ditle. haha. It is her fault.
 
Aruing (ms) is how joie and I came into some understanding.
 
Hope to see more posts from you. 

Reply
 Message 6 of 15 in Discussion 
From: joieSent: 7/3/2005 3:26 AM
 
Heb. 9:24 says that Christ entered into heaven, now to appear in the presence of God for us.
 
Now do you believe that Jesus is God?  If so, how is it that he went to appear INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD?
 
If he is God, how is he in the presence of himself?  Why would he have to enter into heaven to appear in the presence of God?
 
Anyone here have an anwer?

Reply
 Message 7 of 15 in Discussion 
From: joieSent: 7/3/2005 3:27 AM
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameClaudia5226</NOBR> Sent: 5/20/2005 7:22 AM
I agree and have attached why I have reasoned this
love and Gods blessing inJesus name
clausia
 The Father and the Son.wps  


Reply
 Message 8 of 15 in Discussion 
From: joieSent: 7/3/2005 3:28 AM
From: joie Sent: 5/21/2005 11:22 PM
Thank you, claudia, for your response to this message.  I tried to open the file and my computer could not do it.
 
I truly would love to read it.  Can you just copy it and paste it here for us?  I surely would love to read it.  Hope you can post it for us.
 
Goodnight, and have a great and meaningful dream from God.
 
Bless you,
Jo

Reply
 Message 9 of 15 in Discussion 
From: joieSent: 7/3/2005 3:30 AM
From: <NOBR>MSN Nickname®Larry_W_B_1©</NOBR> Sent: 5/22/2005 8:17 AM

Thank you, claudia, for your response to this message. I tried to open the file and my computer could not do it.

I truly would love to read it. Can you just copy it and paste it here for us? I surely would love to read it. Hope you can post it for us. (joie)


Joie, I hope you and Claudia do not mind but I copied and pasted the message for you to see.

The Father and the Son

Why would the bible say that Jesus sits at Gods right hand, in heaven?

The following scriptures clearly define two beings. Jesus did not simulate into the being of God but was anointed as one worthy of praise and glory like a God, for his obedience and loyalty to Gods will and purpose.

Acts 2: V32 “this Jesus, God raised up…we are all witnesses; v33 exalted to the right hand of God…received of the Father the promised Holy Ghost..; v.34 Lord (God) say to my Lord (Jesus) “Sit at my right hand until I make thy enemies your footstool�?

Romans 8: V34 “…raised up from the dead, who is on the right hand of God�?/P>

Hebrew 1: V13 “…sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool�?/P>

Acts 7: V.55 At the stoning of Stephen, he looks up to heaven as see “the glory of God and Jesus standing on the right hand of God.

-Hebrews 1 V.2 (God) has spoken to us by his son, who he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the whole world

V.3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and uphold all things, by the word of his power, when he had, by imself, purged all our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (READING TO VERSE 14 continues to give this understanding)

Jesus always seems to give the greater glory to God when he healed someone. He never said “I healed you�?He said things like ‘give thanks to God (later translated as the Lord)

Read all of John. In John, it gives a clear picture of the relationship between the Father and the Son. I have noted the following:

John 3: V16 God loved the world so much that he gave his only son

John 5:19 Do what Father does

John 5: 36 to 39 “…the Father sent me…�?repeated all the way through

John 10: 17-19 Jesus said “…that is why the Father loves me…�?/P>

John 15:1 Jesus says “I am the vine�?Father is the cultivator�?/P>

John 12:49 Jesus said that he did nothing “out of his own impulse, but

as the Father directs�?him

John 16:27 Jesus says that he came “as the Fathers representative�?/P>

John 14:23 Jesus said If anyone loves me, he will observe my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make our abode.

John 14:28 Jesus said that “the Father is greater than I am�?This seems one of the clearest distinctions between the Father, and Jesus. There seems to be a clear headship. (See 1 Corinthians 11: V3 “�?/B> in turn the head of Christ is God�?B>)

John 16:32 Jesus said “but I am not alone because the father is with me.�?/P>

How are they “One�?then?

If Jesus and the Father are “as one�?or “in union�?is Jesus (or the Apostles) saying that he and the Father are one being?

John chapter 17 is the prayer Jesus said to God, the Father. It shows the wonderful love and loyalty he has for the father and his obedience to Gods plan and will.

(Verse 20) He makes “requests�?to the Father (so cannot be God the Father) on our behalf, so that we too may be one / in union with him and the Father. So, if we too are invited to be �?/I>one with the Christ and the Father�?I> then how can it mean that they are one being? We do not become God when we become “one�?with them. Being “one�?seems to mean becoming part of Gods family, trying to live by their way, allowing their teachings to rule and motivate our lives and will, instead of our own or the world (human or Satan).

Hebrews 9 : V24 “For Christ is not entered into the holy place made with hands…but into heaven itself, not to appear in the presence of God for us.�?He is clearly not God, The Father here.

Acts 10: V42 Sys Jesus is �?B>ordained�?by / to God

The Word

John 1 V.1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. V.2 The same with in the beginning with God Many have used this one scripture to confirm that God is Jesus and that Jesus is God. If we understand that the Word is Jesus and that Jesus does nothing of his own will but only as his Father directs him then he becomes an empty vessel which is filled with the Word of God, not his own, so the Word is God, not his.

Revelations Chapter 19 V. 10 John said. “I am thy fellow servant and of thy brother that have the testimony of Jesus : worship God, for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy �?V.11 Jesus on a white horse and called Faithful and True. Judges and makes war. V. 12 …eyes of fire…on his head many crowns…name no man knew but himself V. 13 Clothed with vesture dipped in blood, and his name is called The Word of God


Reply
 Message 10 of 15 in Discussion 
From: joieSent: 7/3/2005 3:31 AM
From: joie Sent: 5/23/2005 12:19 PM
Wow!  Thank you so much Larry, for posting this message.  It is a very good and truthful message.  Claudia, did you write this?  It is good.
 
"My Father is greater than I"..... now this is the very words God spoke to me when He revealed to me that the Jesus-only doctrine, which I believed at the time, is not truth.
  He said to me,  There is a difference in the Father and the Son;  the Father is a greater, more powerful being than the Son.
I accepted this immediately.  Then He taught me the truth as the Word teaches it.
 
Now I have come to understand that 'the Father' is actually a KINGDOM.
And the Son is a kingdom..  of human beings.....being filled with the Spirit of God by the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. 
 Jesus received His Baptism experience at the time John Baptized him in water.
God anointed Jesus with the Holy Ghost and power.
Jesus was God's SERVANT on this earth.
 
Being on the right hand, signifies the one executing the work and will of someone.  The right hand signifies GRACE.  The left hand signifies LAW.   thus Jesus is the ruling Son in Grace.
 
It is so true that GOD IS THE HEAD OR AUTHORITY OVER CHRIST AND CHRIST IS THE HEAD OVER MAN.
Glory.
Jo


Reply
 Message 11 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameSearERICSent: 7/6/2005 11:03 PM
Hey Jo and Larry and everyone else who do not
understand spiritual conversations.  The Father is
Greater in the spirit, not the flesh. Your Father 
within you is greater than your fleshly body, is that
not correct ? There is not a thing in Yahweh's
creation that is not of Him.  You need to pray for
understanding of how He created in the first place.
The whole bible is a spiritual conversation, not a
wordly one, the bible speaks of enternal life, not
a fleshly one. This is how folks get lost, they keep
thinking carnally, not spiritual. That is why I always
suggest folks start with EXDOUS, then move on to
Genesis, Moses could not have understood any
thing the Holy Spirit [Yahweh] revealed to him if
he had not stepped out of his body [flesh] and into
the Holy Spirit and become ONE  with it.
 
Peace


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Reply
 Message 12 of 15 in Discussion 
From: joieSent: 7/7/2005 12:41 AM
Hello Eric,
Good to hear from you again.
My, this is a very good and interesting message.
Please expound some more on the thought of HOW God created.  that is very interesting.
 
and the thing about starting in Exodus, please explain why this is.
 
And that thing about Moses stepping out of his body and into the Spirit, I truly like that.  I have experienced this.  It is indeed marvelous.
 
Peace and love to you,
Joie

Reply
 Message 13 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameSearERICSent: 7/8/2005 3:36 AM
Hey my pretty Jo, I still want my peanuts [smile].
I will do my best to answer your questions truthly and to your understanding.
The Creation was declared by Yahweh, Genesis 1:1, 2, And the earth was without form, and void:and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the SPIRIT OF YAHWEH moved upon the face of the waters.  What do we see here ? That Yahweh declared Earth. If you know anything about how the spirit of Yahweh moves, He heals instantly, once He says it, the action of His word, follows right away,there is no hesitation from the Holy Spirit, it is obedient and confident that Yahweh would not declare anything of it, that it cannot do !  Genesis 1:3 etc, Yahweh said let there be [whatever] thus it was [the Holy Spirit never question Yahweh once, it just fulfilled His word ! Re-read Genesis for yourself, this time without fear or doubt, just pure faith, that Yahweh can and did. This is where religion confuses folks, religion teaches that all things are not for you to know, this is a lie, if all things were not for you to know how come the bible is still in existence ? Teaching of things that happen before man was created ? Do you see how Great Yahweh's love is for us ? That His record [History] stands until this day ! This is why when reading your bible, you must let your Holy Spirit increase your understanding, cause if you don't, then your mind will run you right into satan's arms. What I mean is unless you turn your will over to Him in you, then you will do as satan does, start believing your own lies or imignation.  Yahweh declared it, Yahweh is the WORD thus Yahweh became His Creation, which includes YOU!  There is nothing in this Creation that is not Him. Now I know someone is thinking what about evil ? Evil is not in Yahweh, evil cannot abide in Yahweh, man has free will, you can only be willing to be righteouness or un-righteouness, there is no gray matter as educated folks like to say, there is only the truth or a lie, nothing in between.

Jo I will answer your other 2 questions as soon as I can, I have some other commimetments tonight.

Peace

 



joie <[email protected]> wrote:
New Message on Build on the True Foundation

In Favor of Argument

Reply
  Reply to Sender   Recommend Message 12 in Discussion
From: joie

Hello Eric,
Good to hear from you again.
My, this is a very good and interesting message.
Please expound some more on the thought of HOW God created.  that is very interesting.
 
and the thing about starting in Exodus, please explain why this is.
 
And that thing about Moses stepping out of his body and into the Spirit, I truly like that.  I have experienced this.  It is indeed marvelous.
 
Peace and love to you,
Joie

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Reply
 Message 14 of 15 in Discussion 
From: joieSent: 7/9/2005 4:59 AM
If you know anything about how the spirit of Yahweh moves, He heals instantly, once He says it, the action of His word, follows right away,there is no hesitation from the Holy Spirit, it is obedient and confident that Yahweh would not declare anything of it, that it cannot do !  Genesis 1:3 etc, Yahweh said let there be [whatever] thus it was [the Holy Spirit never question Yahweh once, it just fulfilled His word ! [Eric]

Hello sweet Eric,

That is truly a beautiful message.  I just LOVE the above statement.  That is wonderful about the Holy Spirit never questioning but obeying God's command immediately.

I have never heard this before.  It is beautiful.  Thank you for this sweet message.

Goodnight,  and may you find the peanuts to your liking very soon.

Love to ye, [smile]

Joie


Reply
 Message 15 of 15 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname®Larry_W_B_1©Sent: 5/6/2008 5:33 AM

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