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Members' Studies : T. Warren's Baby-burning Argument Vitiated
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 Message 9 of 9 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameKenHamrick  in response to Message 1Sent: 3/26/2008 6:35 PM
(5.) Baby Security means Adult Security!
The fifth problem of the doctrine of "age of accountability," is this idea that all babies are Saved. If that were indeed the case (which of course it isn't) then All grown people would be Saved, because there is no loss of everlasting Life once one gets it (else it is Salvation based on continued merit). You see, this is the impossibility of this doctrine and how it is incompatible with eternal security or being sealed unto the day of redemption by the Spirit. If all babies were Saved, then when they grow up, they are still Saved, which means there are no unsaved people in the entire world since all were once babies. Did God give these babies the everlasting waters of Salvation that He says we'll never thirst again, and then they reach the age of 12, and all of a sudden it's all just a lie and they thirst again because they are now not Saved? That's the ridiculousness of this doctrine, and the twisted logic of this plan. And if you think that is ridiculous, if all babies are redeemed, that means they become unredeemed, and then some become redeemed again later on in life...

Some try and circumvent scripture by saying, Child Salvation only lasts until they reach a certain age or accountability, and then their Salvation simply disappears? God's Word doesn't teach about vanishing Salvation at age 4, 7, or 12. God's Word says He is both the author (starter) and finisher of our faith! God's Word says he is always with us and will never leave us! God's word speaks of eternal life, not temporary life dependant on our works or age. God says no one can pluck them out of His hand. What do we then retort? That this is all wrong?

John 10:28-29
  • "And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand."
Do we say, "that's not true what God says about them never perishing, and having eternal life?" Does never perish now change to, "Oops, they just might?" If all children were indeed under God's Salvation, then they would never perish and have everlasting life, and no one could pluck them out of God's hand. And that would mean every man woman and child in the world (we were all once children) are Saved, and will never perish...
Again, Warren has set up straw-men. The issue is not any certain age, so his attempts to hold up certain ages as erroneous only look foolish. It has been my position, from the beginning, that all children who die before an accountable understanding are saved through Christ at the time of physical death. We are conceived in a state of spiritual death, from which only Christ can resurrect us. We are conceived with a sinful nature ("shaped in iniquity"), which only Christ can remedy through rebirth. Not even a zygote comes to the Father except through Christ. This is not to say that Christ excludes these little ones, but rather, it expresses the means whereby all of them are saved. But this salvation through Christ is not concurrent with conception, but concurrent with death. The child who reaches adulthood has not lost such salvation, since they were never in Christ. It is true that an unsaved adult was unsaved as a child; however, that does not prevent God from saving that child if he dies as a little child. It is true that if you are never going to be saved as an adult (i.e., unelect) then you could not be saved as a child; however, it does not follow from this that if such a person who is unelect were to die as a little child, he would die unsaved, as this assumes that God would permit unelect persons to die prior to reaching a point in their development where they obtain an accountable understanding and willfully choose to sin. Such an unproven assumption is where the confusion lies.
(6.) Conclusion! In all points, the doctrine of the age of accountability is both inconsistent with everything that the Bible has to say about man and his fallen state, and incompatible with God's sovereign right, and lawfulness of Saving by Grace. We are all accountable by birth not by age. And if some were not accountable, then none would be accountable. For our God is a righteous God whose idea of Righteousness is far above that of man's perceptions.
It is Warren's position that is both inconsistent with everything that the Bible has to say about sinners and judgment, and incompatible with God's justice. We are all accountable by sinning, not by being born, nor by growing old--and sinning requires the understanding of good and evil, and the will to disobey. Because our God is a righteous God who judges according to truth, He cannot call a man a guilty sinner unless that man has in reality sinned.
Notice in Ephesians 2:3:
"We . . . were by nature the children of wrath." That scriptures tells us that 'by nature' we are children under God's Wrath. We were always accountable for sin and therefore condemned.
To be a child of wrath does not mean that one is physically a child, any more than to be a child of God means that one is physically a child.
Eph. 5:5-6
For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous ( that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
"Because of these things [sexual immorality, covetousness, idolatry] the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." One can only be a child of wrath by disobeying the law, and examples of such are here given. That disobedience which causes us to be children of wrath stems from our nature; however, it is not our nature that brought the wrath, but the disobedience!
Moreover, another thing that should not be lost in the shuffle is divine election.

Romans 9:11
  • "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil.."
In Romans chapter 9:8-16 Rebecca had twins in her womb. And though the children had not yet been born, "having done neither good or evil," God called saying which one would be chosen. As it is written in verse 13,(Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated) And in verse 15 it says as God had said unto Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. In verse 16 it says So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. Shall we argue with God saying it is unrighteous of you to call Esau hated even before he was born? God forbid!
So here we have a verse that tells us plainly that unborn children have not yet done any good or evil! Yes, God chose to love Jacob and hate Esau. However, God knew that Esau would grow to adulthood, so this example is completely irrelevant to the issue. Now, if you can show verse where God hated an unborn child and let that unborn child die, then you would have support for such nonsense--but you cannot. Again, a Scripture that Warren has misapplied has turned out to support rather than contradict knowledgeable accountability.
Yes, I believe there is accountability. But that means that we are all held accountable, bar none. It is not for us to question or judge the Maker of us all about what seems righteous to us. Is there unrighteousness with God? God Forbid! Therefore, God has the Sovereign right to Save whosoever He will regardless of who, what age, how, what they did or didn't do, or their understanding level. That is indeed what Sovereignty means!
This is just more groundless pulpit-pounding, over things that have already been dealt with.
Yes, there is an age of accountability. The Biblical age of accountability is CONCEPTION.
That is exactly Warren's position! At conception, with only one cell for a body, with no brain with which to think, no eyes with which to see, no ears with which to hear, no mouth with which to speak. But Warren sees these one-celled children as wicked snakes and lions, worthy of everlasting hell! But he has failed to establish that from reason or Scripture.
Sure, many can and do disagree with this, but they do not have any Bible verses to back up their belief that a person has to be old enough to realize that he is a sinner or be able to understand God's Salvation before he has real sin! The fact is, there is one way of salvation, one name whereby we must be Saved, and one Salvation plan for all. Whether Jew or Greek, Baby or Elder, Man or Woman, White or Black, we are all Saved by grace through the faith of Christ! The new popular doctrines are nothing more than excuses to hold onto modern tired doctrines like "we must accept Christ" and "we must choose him" and "we must have free will" and "we must sign the check" we, we, we, we! If they would take their eyes off "we," and put them on the Lord, they would see the truth. But this is the, "I want some credit of my own salvation, generation." And in order to have that credit or boasting for coming when those other sinners didn't, they must have a doctrine of they, of themselves, of freely accepting Christ. Which of course then means that a new doctrine must be invented for babies who can't accept Christ, in order to hold onto these unbiblical doctrines. ..Else the children must be Saved by Grace Alone. Sola Gratia!
Of course, these children are saved by grace alone. Though they have no sinful deeds for which to be condemned, they also have no righteousness for which to be merited (as I have previously explained). For too many centuries, the witness of the Holy Spirit on this matter has been quenched by overbearing insistence of "scholars" who decreed that Scripture only supported the condemnation of infants who unfortunately died before being baptized. How pathetic and tragic that many bereaved parents even in this day and age find no more comfort from their pastor and church than this: "I'm sorry [that your child is in hell]. All things happen according to God's sovereign plan [even His sending your child to hell]." Thankfully, the vast majority of believers and churches believe in the truth of an age of accountability, whether or not they can actually defend it from Scripture. Hopefully, some will read this and see that the truth can indeed be defended from Scripture.

Ken Hamrick, 2008