MSN Home  |  My MSN  |  Hotmail
Sign in to Windows Live ID Web Search:   
go to MSNGroups 
Free Forum Hosting
 
Important Announcement Important Announcement
The MSN Groups service will close in February 2009. You can move your group to Multiply, MSN’s partner for online groups. Learn More
DUST ON THE BIBLE[email protected] 
  
What's New
  
  Welcome To Dust  
  Hi New Members  
  General  
  Good Morning  
  Good Night  
  Our Daily Chat  
  Question 4 Week  
  Todays Prayer  
  Adult's Chapel  
  Childrens Chapel  
  Todays Web Word  
  Devotional  
  Motivationals  
  Scripture  
  Psalms/ Proverbs  
  Christian Faith  
  Catholic Faith  
  Jewish Faith  
  Tears From God  
  Easter Sunday  
  Mother's Day  
  Father's Day  
  Thanksgiving Day  
  Christmas Day  
  New Year's Day  
  Gods Little Ones  
  Teens Go 4wd  
  Tree House Club  
  Bible Adventure  
  Testamonies  
  Praise Report  
  Birthdays  
  Special Awards  
  Quotes  
  Thoughts  
  Lift Me Ups  
  Cancer  
  Sorow/Pain/Abuse  
  Warnings  
  Health Concerns  
  Health Foods  
  Recipes  
  Tea Time  
  Coffee Break  
  Morning Coffee  
  Saints & Angels  
  Heroic Women  
  Brave Males  
  4Gotten History  
  Native Lore  
  Story Time  
  Lindas Book Club  
  Poetry  
  Angela's mailbox  
  Barbara"s Quest  
  Blue's Lessons  
  Chrissies Gems  
  ♥DebsDollOffer�?/A>  
  ♥Deb'sRequest �?/A>  
  ♥Deb'sPickups �?/A>  
  ♥Deb's Mailbox�?/A>  
  ♥DebsBackground�?/A>  
  ♥Deb'sTagOffers�?/A>  
  Happy's Spot  
  Jemmie's Box  
  Linda's Mailbox  
  Micah's Journey  
  Millie and David  
  Nellie's Page  
  Pat's Mail Box  
  Pat's Garden  
  Rosie's Creation  
  Christmas Carols  
  Our Choir  
  Hymns  
  Songs  
  Animal care  
  Handy Tips  
  Gardening tips  
  Computer Help  
  Batter Up  
  Jokes and Gags  
  Games For All  
  Revelations  
  The Gathering  
  Studies  
  Pictures  
  Angela's Tags  
  Name Tags  
  Pat's Pictures  
  Dust on the bible  
  Pats specials  
  Linda  
    
  Daily Messages  
  
  
  Tools  
 
Blue's Lessons : Letter VI - Part 1
Choose another message board
 
     
Reply
Recommend (1 recommendation so far) Message 1 of 2 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameBlueMidnight777  (Original Message)Sent: 6/23/2007 5:46 PM
A Series of Letters In Defence of Divine Revelation

LETTER VI.

_Dear sir, and brother_,--In replying to your seventh number, I propose taking the advantage which you have favoured me with, by the division of your subject. I hope by this, to be able to compress my remarks on your reasoning, and avoid any unnecessary protraction of this epistle.

You allow, that a "general view of the whole ground" on which the scriptures seem to rest, would be sufficient to support the truth of divine revelation, were it not for the following considerations.

1. Mankind, in all ages of the world, have been, and still are prone to superstition.

2. It cannot be denied, but that a part of mankind, at least, have believed, and still are believing in miracles and revelations which are spurious.

3. The facts on which revelation is predicated, are unlike every thing of which we have any positive knowledge.

If I rightly apprehend your meaning of "the whole ground" in which the scriptures seem to rest, a general view of which would be sufficient to support a belief in revelation, were it not for the three considerations above quoted; it occupies, at least, prophecies concerning a Messiah and the fulfillment of those prophecies by a Messiah, according to the account which we have in the New Testament.

As it will serve to circumscribe the bounds of our present reasoning, it is thought best to direct our inquiry to the consideration of the facts recorded in the New Testament, presuming if these be admitted, the prophecies will not be denied.

But have I not occasion, sir, to be surprised to find your first proposition adduced as evidence unfavourable to the christian scriptures? Was there ever a time when the world of human kind, both Jews and Gentiles, was more deeply involved in the darkness and stupidity of superstition than when the Messiah entered on his public ministry? If the doctrine of Jesus had been pleasing to the superstitious Jews, if it had accorded with the idolatrous notions of the Gentiles, (which was impossible) if his Messiahship had been espoused by both, and by their consent and influence had been handed down, and declared to have been evidenced by all the miracles recorded in the four Evangelists, do you not see that your first proposition would be of Herculean strength against this religion? On the contrary, it being well established, from unquestionable authority, that as St. Paul observed, Christ crucified was a stumbling block to the Jews, and to the Greeks foolishness, the whole force of Jewish and Greek superstition, as it opposed, serves to strengthen the evidences of our faith.

Will you be so good as to read the account which is recorded of the miracle which Jesus wrought in giving sight to the man who was born blind, and inquire carefully from beginning to end for any thing that looks in the least as if the writer was endeavouring to write a falsehood in a way to have it deceive the reader. This request might, as I humbly conceive, be made in respect to any of the other miracles; but what I had in view, particularly when this subject came to my mind, was the following words, spoken by the pharisees to him who had been blind; "Thou art his disciple: but we are Moses' disciples. We know that God spake unto Moses; as for this fellow we know not from whence he is." Is it not plain from this as well as from many other scriptures, that in the same degree that the pharisees' superstition run in favour of Moses, it operated against Jesus? I know the objector may say, the Jews expected a Messiah; but then they did not expect such a character as was Jesus. They also expected Elias to come first, but they did not expect such a character as John. You, and all the world know that the protestant clergy in Europe and America used to pray for the downfall of the Pope; but when he was humbled, they all joined in fervent prayer to set him up again. How did this inconsistency happen? Answer: The way in which it pleased God to humble the Pope, was not the way which clerical wisdom and prudence had planned; and we all see now, that they are better pleased with the Pope and the Inquisition, than they were to have him lose his power in a way which endangered their own. Now, sir, if liberal principles do obtain, and if the cause of civil and religious liberty should finally triumph, in spite of popish and protestant clergy with monarchy united, do you believe that this triumph will ever be imputed to the superstition of king-craft and priestcraft? On the ground of your first proposition this would be your conclusion. The pharisees and those who adhered to them, built the sepulchres of the prophets, whom their fathers killed, and said; "If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets." These _holy_ men were sure that they were much better than their fathers who persecuted the prophets; they had no disposition to persecute; all the wealth in the world could not have tempted these _godly saints_ to kill a prophet of God. However, St. Paul writing to the Thessalonians, says, "For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God, which in Judea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews; who both killed the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men." But the Jews would not have put Jesus to death if he had been a pharisee, and had not departed from their traditions and superstitions. But he was not a pharisee, nor did he adhere to their superstitions; and for this cause he was to them "a root out of dry ground." To them, he had no form nor comeliness, no, nor had he any beauty that they should discern him. Say, brother, is not this the superstition which you are urging as unfavourable to the evidences of christianity? And does not the passage above quoted from Thessalonians go to prove what all ecclesiastical history as well as the New Testament proves, that the Christians were persecuted by the Jews and by the Gentiles? Did any thing but superstition ever persecute? It surely does not aim to build up that which it persecutes: and therefore in room of its being evidence against the genuineness of what it opposes, is justly admitted as a valid evidence in its favour. It is well known that our Christian doctors, clergy, and laity have been long persuaded that a glorious day of universal peace and gospel light is not only promised, but fast approaching; and if their prayers have any influence, it is evident that the time is hastened by their means. All this looks very well, and a man would be thought to be impious, if not insane, who should intimate that these saints were superstitous or illiberal, or that they possessed the spirit of persecution.--But what has been their spirit for, say, twenty-five years past towards a doctrine which teaches universal peace on earth and good will towards man? Is there any thing bad which they have not spoken against this doctrine? Have they not treated its preachers with all the contempt and even ridicule of which they were capable? Have they not used all their influence to keep the doctrine from being preached in their meeting houses, and have they not dealt with church members who have believed this benign doctrine of love, with excommunications attended with as many aggravations as they could invent? In a word, is there one bitter herb in all the ground which was cursed for man's sake, that has not been used against what is called the poison of this abominable heresy? If they had the power of the pope, if the inquisition were at their command, would they let such power lie dormant for want of zeal? Balaam smote his ass with a _staff_, but said: "I would there were a _sword_ in mine hand, for now would I kill thee."

But after all that has been said and done against this doctrine of universal benevolence and grace, its progress confounds its enemies, encourages its friends, and calls to mind the parable of the mustard seed. Suppose for a century to come it should continue its advances according to what it has gained for the twenty-five years above mentioned, is it not evident that the knowledge of God would cover the earth as the waters cover the sea? But would any body then, being acquainted with the history of these times, think of making use of the superstition of our clergy to oppose the evidences of this doctrine? Would such a one say, it is probable that in those times of superstition, the clergy who had great influence with the common people, might alter many passages of scripture, and in room of using the word _elect_, interpolate the words _all men_? If I understand your argument, this is the use you make of superstition. But, sir, I am satisfied that the superstition of our times will be sufficient proof to future ages, that the scriptures which so abundantly prove the doctrine of universal salvation, were not the production of a superstitious clergy who were known to oppose this doctrine with all their learning and influence.

Now if you please, you may indulge in strengthening your hypothesis, and prove by the faithful histories of different nations, that Jews, Greeks, and Romans were most stupidly superstitious. Also that India, Turkey, and Arabia are now groaning under the ponderous weight of this vanity. Go on and enlarge on all that you have said, and point out all the superstitions of which we read or know; show how powerful this superstition is in the human heart; how it renders its votaries blind to reason and the principles of moral truth; show how hard it is to break in upon this almost invincible phalanx; but consider, sir, the blacker you represent this cloud, the brighter you render the evidences of the religion of Jesus.

You need not be informed, what the Christian world all knows, that the doctrine of Jesus Christ, founded on the miracles recorded in the four Evangelists and in the Acts of the Apostles, was propagated among Jews and Gentiles, whose superstitions, though various, rendered them both hostile to this new religion, and incited them to persecutions which subjected the "weak and defenceless disciples of the meek and lowly Jesus" to trials and sufferings, fears and temptations of which we can have but a faint conception.--The grand hypothesis on which the gospel was advocated, and by which it succeeded in obtaining vast multitudes of Jewish as well as Gentile converts, was the resurrection of Jesus, who was publicly executed on a cross by the Roman authority instigated by the rulers of the Jews. All this must be accounted for in a rational way. The facts are as well attested as any thing of which history gives any account. The four gospels have been commented on, and quoted, and adverted too by a greater number of controversial writers, than any other book of which we have any knowledge. The epistles of St. Paul when compared with the Acts and with each other have all the necessary characteristics of being genuine, and of relating nothing but realties.

You, sir, allow that the authority on which this religion rests, would be sufficient to support it, if it were not for the consideration of your three propositions, the first of which, I trust, you will acknowledge stands in its vindication.

Your second proposition may now be noticed.

That part of mankind have believed and still are believing in miracles and revelations which are spurious, we have no interest in denying, but we feel under no obligation to admit this fact as any evidence against Christianity, or of any force to counterbalance the evidences which stand in its favour. What would you think of such kind of reasoning as should contend, that as it is evident that many have been, and still are imposed on by counterfeit money, it justifies serious doubts whether there ever was any true money in the world? Would you not reply, that as the counterfeit is entirely dependent on the true for its imposition, in room of being evidence that there is no true money, it demonstrates that there is?

It being well known, nor ever doubted by the friends or enemies of Christianity, that its founder and his apostles proved the divinity of their missions by miracles alone, it was nothing more than might be rationally expected, that impostors would rise up under those sacred pretensions, with a view to establish themselves. But if this religion of Jesus Christ, had not at first been built upon this foundation, impostors would never have thought of imposing on people with such pretensions. Impostors, therefore, together with all their deceptions, cannot, as I humbly conceive, be admitted as evidence _against_ the genuineness of the gospel, but in _favour_ of it.

As to Mahomet of whom you speak, I have always understood that he made no pretensions to miracles. He pretended to hold correspondence with the angel Gabriel, and to receive revelations from God in this way; but he never attempted to sanction his divinity by miracles; and indeed there was no need of this, for he declared he was commissioned from heaven to propagate his religion by the sword, and to destroy the monuments of idolatry. His kingdom was of this world, therefore did his servants fight; but they did not fight always alone, for he fought at nine battles or sieges in person, and in ten years achieved fifty military enterprizes. He united religion and plunder, by which he allured the vagrant Arabs to his standard. He asserted that the sword was the key of heaven and hell; that a drop of blood shed in the cause of God, a night spent in arms are of more account than two months of fasting and prayer. He assured those who should fall in battle, that their sins should be forgiven at the day of judgment, that their wounds would be resplendant as vermillion and odoriferous as myrrh, and that the loss of limbs should be supplied by the wings of angels and cherubim. But what you can find in Mahometism which in the least militates against the evidences of Christianity I know not. It is affirmed by writers, that he collected his ideas of God and of morals from the Hebrew and Christian scriptures.

From Mahomet you go to the conversion of Constantine, taking particular notice of the account given of his seeing the sign of a cross in the sun, &c. And as we are now on the subject of miracles, we must not forget the miracles of the _Shakers_ which seem to _shake_ your faith! Two _notable_ miracles you have honoured with a place in your epistle, or honoured your epistle with them, which, I shall not undertake to determine. A bridge fell with a horse on it, which fell with the bridge; the rider was a woman; by the fall several of her ribs were broken, and she was otherwise bruised; but she was miraculously recovered so as to be able to dance in one evening. A boy cut his foot, the wound bled profusely; the boy was miraculously healed in a few hours. These are the miracles; but whether mother Ann, or some of her elders performed these miracles you do not inform me. It seems to be allowed that _most_ of these Quaker miracles are inferior to the miracles recorded in the New Testament, but not more inferior to them, than they are to the miracles of Moses.

Doctor Priestley, with his usual candor, endeavours to assign a natural cause for what Constantine saw, and you are inclined to his opinion, to all of which I have no objections to make; and I am by no means certain, that a proper attention to the pretended miracles of the Shakers, might not issue in assigning a natural cause for them. But however this may be, I cannot see how the matter affects our belief in Jesus Christ. Do you not discover a difference too wide between the case of Jesus and his doctrine, and Ann Lee and her principles to admit of the comparison which you seem inclined to make? You have also mentioned the case of Mrs. A----'s seeing her husband and talking with him after he was dead, which you would draw into the same comparison. That Mrs. A---- may have satisfactory evidence of her having seen and conversed with her husband since his death, I am not at all disposed to dispute; but here the matter ends. God has not seen fit to endue her with the power of working miracles. If this woman should come into a public assembly and work astonishing miracles before all the people as an attestation of her having seen her husband, and you and I should be present, and see these marvellous things with our own eyes should we doubt the woman's testimony?

I have already, in a former communication shown that the declaration of the apostles of the resurrection of Jesus, until it was accompanied with power from on high, was never even communicated to the public, or ordered to be communicated. But in fact the disciples were strictly commanded to tarry at Jerusalem until the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Constantine would have had no occasion to depose under the solemnity of an oath, concerning the sign of the cross, &c. if he had had power to evidence his declaration by miracles. If Ann Lee's disciples will heal the sick, restore the lame, and raise the dead in so public a manner that the people at large may know these facts, then, sir, they will no longer need to purchase poor children in order to increase their societies. And if God should see fit to call me from my wife and children by such evidences as these, I hope I should not disobey his divine mandate.

But will you reply, that miracles having ceased, we have no right to expect them? In return it may be asked, how we are assured that miracles are not now necessary as they were twenty or thirty years ago? Will you retort this question and ask why miracles are not now as necessary to evince the truth of christianity as in the days of Jesus and his apostles? To this we reply: the miracles on which the gospel was founded, or propagated, were of the most extraordinary kind; they were of extensive publicity, and of ocular notoriety; they were vastly numerous, extending to the infirmed of all descriptions; and they were continued long enough to answer the purpose for which they were intended.

You will feel satisfied that the _enemies_ of Jesus and his apostles knew for certainty, that those miracles wrought by them were realities; and that they, in room of imputing them to the divine agency, violated their own reason, by referring to an evil agent such power and acts of goodness; I say you will feel satisfied of all this, if you will set down and read all the accounts relative to this subject, in the four gospels, carefully regarding this question: Do these writers discover any marks of deception or fraud?

In no instance do the evangelists betray the least anxiety for fear what they relate will not be credited. Even when they pen the astonishing miracles of which they pretend to be eye witnesses, they make no pause to clear up any thing; but tell the whole as if the whole was publicly known. In a word, this history, this sacred testimony, carries its own competent evidence within itself.

It has been noticed by those who have written on this subject, as evidence that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were the real authors of those books which bear their respective names, that a great many passages are alluded to or quoted from the evangelists, exactly as we read them now, by a regular succession of Christian writers, from the time of the apostles down to this hour; and at a very early period their names are mentioned as the authors of their respective gospels; which is more than can he said of any other historian whatever. See Lardner and Paley. I will not call up Ann Lee in this place, but I will suppose an attempt should be made now in New-England to convince Trinitarians of the error of supposing there are three persons in the Godhead. This shall be undertaken by men who are wicked enough to attempt to deceive by pretended miracles. One is selected as a leader, and the others to the number of twelve profess to be his followers. The leader pretends to a revelation from God, the substance of which is, that Jesus Christ is a created being and dependent on the Father. This doctrine he preaches and directs his followers to go into every town in New-England and proclaim this truth to the people, and exhort them to repent of their former doctrine and turn to God. This impostor pretends to work miracles in confirmation of his divine mission; and also pretends to give his disciples power to work miracles. He informs his friends that he is to lose his life and that they must lose their's, in order to establish this doctrine. Stop, we have come to an absurdity. Who would undertake to deceive their fellow creatures for no other reward than the loss of their lives? But let us pursue on. This leader pretends to give sight to blind people, to heal the sick with a word, and to raise the dead. It is reported all round the country that many such cases have actually taken place; that the blind do receive their sight, the sick are raised to health at once, and one man in particular who was dead four days, has been called out of his grave. People now are waked up; many believe the reports; thousands are flocking from place to place to hear this man and to see his miracles. In this case who would be most likely to place themselves very near to this pretender? Who would one expect to find near his person? Answer, some of the Trinitarians; chosen ones too; men of sound judgment, and who could be depended on as able to detect any fraud. How long is it reasonable to suppose these pretensions could possibly continue with any success? It may be asked likewise, whether all honest, reasonable, and candid Unitarians would not express their abhorrence of such pretensions? Are you, sir, of opinion that such a fraud could possibly be managed in a way to insure success? A moment's reflection is sufficient to put the question to rest.

But we will still pursue our supposition. The Trinitarians enter a complaint against this teacher, to the authorities, alleging that he is guilty of treason; he is arrested, convicted, and publicly executed. At the time of his arrest his disciples all forsake him, and one being found near him denies that he knows the man. All is over now, and people go about their common avocations; once in a while a word or two may be dropped on the subject of the impostor, but the thing is dying away, till all at once the twelve disciples of him who was executed came boldly before the public and proclaim the resurrection of their leader, charge the rulers of the people of having murdered him, and declare that God has raised him from the dead, and appointed them to be witness of this to the people, and to preach Unitarianism. What would be thought of these men? Would the doctrine of the divine unity be likely to triumph over its opposite, the Trinity, by the preaching of the twelve? Would there be any attention paid to these men, except by authority, to disperse them and cause them to desist from such madness, and go about some honest business? But now they pretend to work miracles in confirmation of the truth of the resurrection! Enough. Suppose, sir, I should tell you that I believe such pretensions might be so managed as to succeed completely, would you not reply, that the success of such pretensions being altogether a fraud, would itself be as great a miracle as is recorded in scripture, with the addition of absurdity? You will remember that you suggested that it would require a miracle to dissuade me from my belief; and I hope you will see that you must believe in a miracle in order not to believe with me!

Will you say that the foregoing does not come to the difficulty, that the question is, was not the account we have of those things in the gospels, forged long since the days in which they are represented to have taken place? Then, sir, in room of the above supposed fraud, undertaken to propagate _Unitarianism_, you may take the supposition of a forged book published by the friends of that doctrine, in which just such a story is told of the first propagations of the sentiment as is told in the New Testament of Jesus and his apostles--and the Trinitarians shall be made to act the part of the old pharisees. Can you, sir, conceive that the book would meet with any better success than the impostors themselves? Would our learned doctors of the Trinitarian school be silent while such a book was in circulation?



First  Previous  2 of 2  Next  Last 
Reply
Recommend  Message 2 of 2 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamebarbarajeanelizabethSent: 5/22/2008 1:08 AM
Christ crucified was a stumbling block to the Jews, and to the Greeks foolishness, the whole force of Jewish and Greek superstition, as it opposed, serves to strengthen the evidences of our faith.