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| | From:  ZERO_1979_33 (Original Message) | Sent: 9/12/2004 6:34 PM |
I wonder if it's at all possible to become a thinking, feeling human being again. [?] I don't like not being able to do what I want. I cant sleep w/o it, and when I have it- that's all I want to do. I cant drink- not that i want to go drinking or get drunk, but I cant do anything w/o thinking of the repurcussions of my drugs. I was supposed to be on certain antidepressant medications, but need to plan accordingly to take them. I need to plan my sleeping, eating, working, etc. -and although not to the same great extent, I still feel like getting high is something I have to do. Not physically, but mentally. It is just one more thing and although it probably isnt a big deal- a 'normal' part of quitting- it's a matter of principle. I dont want to be dependant upon anything. That's why drugs scare me. Not because I'm unable to abstain, but because I won't want to.
I need to set my limits. I need to set my bounds of what is reasonable and then- after i reach that limit- stop.
I always knew I was a hypocrite at heart.
Thanks for listening [?] *Ant |
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Hi Ant,
This probably isn't what you want to hear, but the only thing that helps is time. In time, the jonse goes away and you will feel normal. For me it took a few years, but the cravings for heroin and crack are gone 95% of the time now, and when i see people using it doesn't look appealing anymore, I just see misery. ( I see people using daily because people use on the street in front of my office and I have to step over them to get in the door). I don't know of any way to speed the process up, but I can tell you that my experience was I went through cravings, using dreams, depression, jealousy, and general craziness pretty intensely for long time after I quit dope, but it slowly got less intense, and now it is basically gone. It is absolutely possible to recover and live a normal life, but it takes a lot of pain and perserverence to get there. I don't regret any of it though, and that I'm so glad I held on through it. I've heard people say that "the worst days clean are better then the best days using," and I don't realy agree with that, but I think that the worst days clean are defineitely way better than the worst days using, and that things have a lot more potential to improve when we are clean. I so related to you talking about being able to stay clean, but just not wanting to. I think that's always the problem, the whole thing is so damn twisted. Try to remeber that as intense as it feels right now, it gets easier, and you can and will get through this.
-Curiosity
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| | | From: Marco | Sent: 9/13/2004 4:03 PM |
Hey Ant- for a long, long time I didn't really want to quit either. I was happy (sort of) using and hadn't really suffered many consequences. I had a number of friends in recovery who never told me I should quit, they just told me that the day would come when I would want to abstain. I figured when I got to the point where I wanted to quit, I'd be able to do it, no problem. And sure enough, all those friends were right and eventually the consequences became so great that I did want to abstain. Coming to that realizaton was only the beginning. From then on it was a battle of many years before I actually got clean. But the first step comes with KNOWING that you've had enough, that you don't want to use any more. If that day hasn't come for you yet, one day it will, and there will be no ambiguity about it- you will KNOW without any doubt. But that will be just the beginning of the battle. Maybe I have this wrong, but you sound like you're at the point where you don't know if you want to quit or not. And it's simply not possible to quit when you're at that stage of your use- when as you say "not because I'm unable to abstain, but because I don't want to." IMO, if you don't make the decision, in your gut and with full certainty, that you want to quit, in time the consequences of your use will force that decision upon you. But until you KNOW you've had enough, it's pretty near impossible to quit. And even once you do know, it's still the battle of a lifetime. I don't mean to be discouraging, on the contrary. Once you've made the decision that you've had enough, that you'll do whatever it takes to quit, then you can use all your strength and whatever method works for you to be free of this drug and the lifestyle that accompanies it. Marco |
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Hi Marco,
I want to respectfully disagree with what you said about needing to "know you've had enough." I don't think that is true. I think that people who are in the ambivilence stage (ie. they have equally good arguements for why they should quit and for why they should keep using, and equally strong emotions in both directions). can be swayed into making the decision to quit, and not everyone needs to reach that point of being totally sure before they quit. I quit without ever being sure, and it took years of clean time to totally make that decision. It may have made it more difficult in the short term, but it did save me from a lot of suffering. Dope is nothing to play around with, and many people die without ever passing out of ambivilence into the stage where they are sure it's time to quit. I've heard many times that people will quit once they "have suffered enough," but I haven't seen that to be true, if anything the more a person suffers, the more reinforcing the dope becomes because it is the only relief from intense pain, and this reinforcemnt makes it even harder to quit. That's the only way I can explain intelligent people giving up everything positive in their lives, and putting themselves into the most horrendous situations in pursuit of a drug they know is killing them. And that seems to happen much more often than people actually quiting. IMO someone who is feeling torn in both directions like that could benefit from seeing an alcohol and drug counsellor and exploring the abivilence further. (I mean this post to be respectful, not rude because I totally value your opinion).
Anyways,
-Curiosity |
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Hello Everyone, I would like to drop in my three cents in on this post, cause the more of us resonding will give that many more view points on abstaining or not. Here's what I found in regards to my search. As many of you know, I have spent a great deal of my life behind bars because of my drug use and I came to the realization that I will most definitely spend the rest of my life there if I didn't make a choice to either quit or die in prison. Nobody wants to be in prison, so I said to myself that if it's drugs that keeps going back in then why not quit! Well as you all know, it's not that easy, so I had some research to do , and I found that it was me all along, so it was up to me to keep me from going to prison. I have always found someone or something to blame for my misfortunes, until I took responsibility for my own actions then I saw first hand that I had control of my destiny.In the large groupes that I ran in Prison for substance abuse, I always asked the Question: Does anyone still want to get out and get high? There were 95% hands up in the air indicating that thet wanted to continue to get high. However, when I asked the question as to how many people wanted to come back to Prison, as you could guess, there were NO hands raised to that question. So I said to them ... If you are planning to go out and get high then, do not complain when you come back to this prison, because it was you that made that choice, so don't get mad at anyone other than yourself, because you have the chance to make a choice, just as everyone else has a choice in what they want out of life. Well at leased most everyone has a choice. Anyways I just wanted to add what I did to get to where I am today, and as a result I found to like who I am and that's a great motivator to me.. Thank you all for being there! Love ....... Sporty |
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| | | From: Marco | Sent: 9/13/2004 10:12 PM |
Hey Curiosity- no need to worry about disagreeing with me, IMO many of the most interesting threads are the ones where people disagree- esp. on topics where there's no real right or wrong (sometimes I worry that people are afraid to disagree with me; I know I come on a bit strong sometimes- but you shouldn't pay any attention, I hope y'all know that). Sporty- your thoughts on this are interesting. It seems like you're saying that people have to own up to it, have to take responsibility. And I'm not sure you can do that unless you really KNOW that you've had enough. Curiousity- I can definitely see your point, and I guess I was speaking more from my own experience. I believe my inability to stay clean after god knows how many detoxes and rehabs was largely due to the fact that inside, there was a place in me that really didn't want to quit. That ambivalence was such that I didn't have the strength to make the decision to do whatever it takes to quit. But that point did come for me, where it was either lose it all (my family) or quit. And at that point I tried one last detox, using ibogaine, but still couldn't make it. But I was going to do whatever it took. So I decided to try the bup maintenance, with full knowledge that if that didn't work I would go on MMT. In my case the bup maintenance worked. So I guess my feeling is just that whenever there is that kernel of doubt, at some point most people will give in to it. You have to be so strong, so unwavering, for such a long time to get clean, and even moreso when doing it without the help of other medications. And IMO any uncertainty or ambiguity, is more times than not, going to end up with the person using again. You got clean thru a 12-step program, right? Isn't one of the underlying principles in the big book that you have to hit your bottom before you can get clean? Isn't hitting your bottom getting to the point that you have either paid such a price or are about to pay such a price that you know that you need to stop or die (jails, insitutions or death)? That you have to admit that you're powerless over drugs and that your life is unmanageable? That you're willing to surrender? Isn't that the same as KNOWING without any ambiguity that you can't go on the way you're going? I'm not challenging you so please don't take offense- but I am curious how you worked those steps if you were still ambiguous about wanting to quit. I mean no disrespect, far from it- I think you know how much I admire you for your strength and ability to get and stay clean. As you know, I did that when I was much younger, but I was in a place for a couple years where I couldn't use, so most of the craving was gone by the time I got out. When I got older I simply found myself unable to do it without medication. Your strength is simply awesome. Marco |
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Marco, You are right, I am saying that you need to KNOW that you had enough. However sometimes it's not the drugs that are causing the problems, the drugs are only a temptorary solution to a much larger problem, which can in time turn out to be more of a problem then the one you had in the first place.So then it brings a person back to dealing with the original problem in a different way. Lets take for instance that a person is somewhat shy and has a hard time meeting women and going out to the dance floor, however when that person has a few drinks of liquor in him, he feels that he can dance and everything, but in reality that person still can't dance and his rap for the ladies sucks. And now he is a alcoholic and has been to prison for D. U. I. and since he can't get "Real Jack Danials" in there, he started shooting Herion because it is so easy to obtain and when he gets out he remembers that everyone told him you can have awsome sex on heroin and now he is a heroin addict that is on his way back to prison for stealing from the company. So to bring this to an end it all started just because he couldn't dance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Anyhow, I just thought that I would post on this tread, I love it when everyone posts their opinion, you are right sometimes there is no right or wrong answers. Thank you all!!!!!!! Love Sporty |
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| | | From: Marco | Sent: 9/14/2004 4:32 PM |
Sporty- hmmm, you write that story as if you're quite familiar with it. Does it have anything in common with your own story? Marco |
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HI Again Marco,
Thanks for your response, and I have to agree that diagreement is the source of many good discussions (hahaha).
Anyways, one of the biggest problems I have with 12-step is that I never really bought in to a lot of it because it struck me as too dogmatic and circular, and it was way to easy to find holes in the arguements. The steps were written in the 1930's for middle class, alcohlic, white men, an I'm not so sure they translate well into other populations,(like punk-rock, junky 20 year olds girls.) Other people would point that out too, but the response from senior members was usually a blow off using a slogan. However, the program did help me because I found support from a huge group of people who understood and had been through what I was going through, and I found hope that a different future might be possible. I can't say I ever really "surrendered," because I don't think it's healthy to totally surrender to an external group of people and give up all your best judgement and thinking. I survived some pretty awful things in addiction, so I think my coping skills were actually pretty good, considering. But I do accept that if I use hard drugs again, at all, I'll be full-blown again in a heartbeat, so I don't use them. I don't really buy the disease concept in it's entirety either, I like bits and pieces of it, but I think it over-simplifies addiction (all the models are just ways to look at things). What I did was took bits and pieces of different approaches that I liked and found a path that worked for me - it included detoxes, treatment, 12-step, antidepressants, and sessions of feminist existential therapy (which was mostly to recover from 12-step). I was at a "bottom," I was very physically sick, covered with scabs, and my hair was falling out, I was mentally ill and suicidal, my relationship was ripped apart, and I had lost contact with most of my friends. I was lucky because even though I had shut my family out, they forced their way back in and supported me (against expert advice), but I was definitely in a really bad state. It's just that I had been really sick before, and not been able to quit. When I got clean I was really angry for a long time, and I had tantrums like a child. Actually, even though I was 20, I acted like a young teenager, and acted out terribly. I really wanted to get clean, but I was so mad that I couldn't party anymore, and I thought that I was missing out on so much because I was so young, and a bunch of other things that seem stupid now, but were really real at the time.
I guess I don't really know why I'm clean. People were patient with me and helped me out. I want to a lot of meetings, and got involved in that crowd, so my social network was clean. I found ways to make NA work for me, tried to suspend my cynism, and cried a lot. I did want to make a change, and I made a firm decision, but not until I had been clean for several months, before that I just forced myself to hold on, and I ran around and acted out with other bored kids in early recovery. I think it's hard to get out of ambivilence before you have a clear idea of what recovery looks like, and it took other people and support to help me through it.
So there's a long answer to a short question. The strategies I use with clients at work are Motivational Interviewing and bits of Cognitve Behavioral Therapy, as well as just listening. I do refer people to 12-step, but I'm a harm reduction advocate (kind of counter-intuitive, but whatever). I try to remember that each person will find their own way, and I try to link them with services that might help and help them explore their thoughts and options. So as a nurse, that's my approach, but I'm still new, so we'll see how well it works out, and I'm sure I'll change things up as I learn more. I think the number one, most important thing to remember about recovery (mine and everyone else's)is the shades of grey. Nothing is ever black and white, and there is usually a lot more to the story. (Probably that's why I quit 12-step after 5 years).
I love hearing your opinions Marco because you give thoughtful, compassionate responses, and you have a ton of life experiece, work experience, and everything else. Actually, I love everyone's opinions on this site. You guys are the only people I really talk about this stuff with.
all the best,
-Curiosity |
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One more thing, original wording of tradition 3 in 12-step was "The only requirement for membership is thje honest desire to stop drinking." They took out the word "honest" because they realized that it was too much to ask as many people are unsure if they really want to quit in the beginning.
Just a bit of trivia,
-Curiosity |
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| | | From: Marco | Sent: 9/15/2004 5:02 PM |
Hey Curiosity- I don't think you've ever written, in that much detail, the last months (or however long) of your using or the specifics of your early recovery. I'm glad you chose to share all of that. I think you are one of the rare ones that was able to take what they felt was needed from NA, use that and disregard the rest, and most importantly use it to your advantage so that in combination with the other things you mentioned, you were able to stay clean. You write about the immaturity and anger, frustration about not being able to party anymore, and running around with other youngsters in recovery and acting out. But then you write that you just held on in those initial months until the ambiguity was gone. I guess I would propose that you probably had a lot of certainty that you had no other choice than to stay clean- otherwise why would you have held on thru those so very tough early months? I still don't understand how someone who is anything less than totally, 100 percent committed, without any ambiguity at all, would be able to get thru those early months you describe without using. It takes such determination, and such strength- don't you feel that if you had anything less than full knowledge that you'd hit your bottom, that you were simply out of options, and that you couldn't go back to using and survive, you would have used again? Even under the so-common pretense of just getting one day of relief from the struggle (which was always my downfall). I don't think we're arguing, or even really disagreeing about anything at this point. I'm just trying to understand how you could have held on if you weren't absolutely sure that you couldn't go back to using. BTW- I think it's awesome how you were able to take the 12-steps and combine them with the other things you did, make them fit you instead of you fitting them, sort of develop your own path to recovery, and then come out clean on the other end. Sticking with it for so long, when it's so hard, is such an achievement. I hope you feel as proud of yourself as you possibly can for having achieved something that is so very difficult. Finally, just a question. It seems that where you are you can sort of decide your appoach to working with people who are striving to recover, while here in the states, within the treatment community it's still pretty much looked at as the 12 steps being the only way (although I think it's slowly starting to change here). Do you think the "forced" 12-step approach (which is what I always experienced in rehabs; there were no exceptions- you were basically told either you buy into the program or you will die) doe more harm than good- by eliminating other options that are out there? Marco |
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I think I might agree with what both Marco and Curiosity said, or at least some of what each one said. We all have our limitations. For some of us with addiction, we needed to get to that point of really losing everything until we decided we had enough. For some it might be something else that motivates them to stop using. There is so much out there about addiction and what works and what does'nt work. I remember the first time I got clean. I was at home with a few friends who were in recovery. Their approach was to make it as hard as possible for me so I would remember the pain of detox. Yeah, it was hell and I felt like crap. Soon I was out there doing it again. Yeah, I could remember what it felt like to detox, but for me it was not the way. I always look at it like childbirth. It hurts like hell to go through it and most women vow to never do it again, but then 3 kids later, they say they would do it all over. OK, the reward is a beautiful little baby. We just do not respond to pain in that way. If we did, we would all avoid anything that might involve the possibility of pain. In getting clean, it takes what it takes. We all have a point where we feel we have had enough. I don't want to repeat myself, but we need to take it from more of an individual standpoint. Sure, there are the basics and following those will help in staying clean, but we all need to remember that we are all different. Some people can go through it over and over and never seem to get it, then one day they just decide they had enough. How much we can tolerate differs from person to person. The very fact that Ant is thinking about it is I feel a step in the right direction. Of course the longer someone uses the more risk involved, but the thoughts are there. One of the things for me that really changed my recovery this time, was I came to a decision that drugs were just not an option. Everyday I said it over and over...."Drugs are not an option!" Yeah, there was more to it, the concept of accepting that as being part of my life was much different than the previous attempts. It just seemed to work this time. Or should I say it is working for now..... Ant, maybe looking at some of the things going on around you is a place to start. Are there people in your life using as well? Is there some way to reduce some of stressors in your life. I hear that can make a difference when making a decision to stop using. Best of luck to you. |
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Hi again Marco,
In early recovery I had made a decision to get clean, and I wanted to get well, but even as miserable as using was making me I still wanted to use. I think that's why I relapsed a few times in that first year. So I started quiting in Aug. 1997, and my clean date ended up being Aug. 1998. I was sure about it on some levels, but in other ways I didn't believe getting clean was possible, and I didn't want to be anything like most of the recovery people I met. My thinking was pretty distorted, so it was hard to make sense of things. After my last relapse I was more sure, but it took a few false starts and a full year of trying to get to that certainty. Maybe I had less ambiguity than I'm remembering, but I know it was a really bad time period. Actually, fear of ever being early in recovery again is enough to keep me from ever going back out. I went through one of those forced 12-step centers too, where the primary therapies were fear, intimidation, and humiliation. It really messed up my head, and it's actually a perversion of the twelve traditions. I was lucky because I had a counsellor there who stood up for me, and took a non-judgemental, client-centered approach (he ended up quiting his job after clashing badly with other staff over therapuetic styles and philosophy). I am proud of myself, and I hope you are proud of yourself too. You have helped me tons, and I know you help a lot of people on this site, and I'd imagine in other areas of your life also.
As far as work goes, I have a pretty unique job because I have a lot of freedom with my clients. I'm outreach psychiatry, with clients who have been pegged "frequent flyers" by ER and the psych hospitals, and I'm supposed to do anything I can to help them stay out of hospital, or to at least shorten the stays and increase independence. The model is called ACT - Assertive Community Treatment - there is lots about it on the web if you are interested. But anyways, I don't think 12-step is appropriate for most of these clients because most are too disorganized, and many of them are actively psychotic. (Also, I work with mental health clients, and not all of them also have substance misuse issues). But, if one of them wants to go I will refer them, and support that descision. I would probably refer to a dual diagnosis program first, because it's a better fit.
As far as forcing 12-steps on to people, I don't think that works, and I think that the more you push the person, the more they will defend the current behavior, see you as an adversary, and the less likely they are to quit drugs or make a positive change. Are you familiar with the transtheoretical model of change? That explains a lot about why treatment failure is so high. Professionals need to tailor interventions to match the client's readiness to change, and if the client demonstrates resistance to the intervention, the professional should see that as evidence that the intervention is not a good match. Unfortuantely, many workers still label it as "difficult client" or "noncompliance," or worse "behavioral, and the client should just suck it up and get a job." Hopefully this will change in time, and I think it is getting better.
I could go on and on, but I think I'll stop here.
-Curiosity |
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Hi Ant Hope you are well. I totally understand - it does suck, and i dont know if it gets better.... but for me there is no other option .... i know if i start again it will ruin my life. I try to make up for it by getting trashy in other ways like big nights out with other stuff (lame stuff, but hey! you have to get your kicks some how). Good luck and keep writing. xx |
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Madeline,
Hi girlfriend, glad you are posting. How are you
doinggggggggggggggg????
Love Karen |
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