I got this for the good Dr. this evening

 

 

January 10, 2008

Did you see that funny YouTube where Mike Huckabee's young Iowa spokesman endorsed me, "by mistake"? We know what was in his mind! Indeed, I am amazed at the friendliness of the supporters of other candidates. Many
Obama voters, for example, in Iowa and New Hampshire are reading our literature, and studying our ideas. It's just one of the reasons I am so optimistic about what we are doing, and where we are heading. And so were the
500 or 600 people at our New Hampshire rally after the primary. I talked to everyone there, and they are rightly enthusiastic about our movement.

This does not mean we will have an easy time of it -- just the opposite, of course. After all, we are seeking to reverse more than a century of big government, of the warfare-welfare state, of Federal Reserve's dollar
manipulation, of a fat and happy military-industrial complex, of the subversion of our Constitution. So all the media and other "second-hand dealers in ideas," as F.A. Hayek called them, who have a vested interest in the current order, will do everything possible to smear me. They will do and say anything to try to block our movement. Even vote fraud is not beyond these people.

And we have been successful. This movement has always operated on two tracks -- intellectual and political, and must. The first and most important is the intellectual. Such heroes of freedom as Ludwig von Mises, Hayek, Henry Hazlitt, Murray Rothbard, and so many others like Rose Wilder Lane, John T. Flynn, Isabel Patterson, and Garret Garrett, have helped build the foundations of freedom, prosperity, and peace. We carry on their work, to change hearts and minds.

The other track is political. Here too, we have touched millions with our ideas, and recruited many, many thousands -- not only in Meetup Groups and as voters, but as sympathizers and future voters too. Walter Block
was kind enough to call this effort the most important in the long history of libertarianism. I don't know about that, but I do know that even if we place a solid fourth, rather than the higher place we all want and are working so hard
for, that is huge progress.

But we can never forget that this is a long struggle. Many great men and women have lived and died in this cause. I have been deeply involved in it all my life. It is a matter of educational work, and elections. We may not accomplish all we want, in one or even two elections. But we will accomplish it. Young people now living will see the free society that you and I dream of, as their everyday reality, an America at peace, prosperous and free, with the federal government chained down y the Constitution, as Jefferson said.

Does this mean our campaign has done everything right? No! We have made mistakes, and will make them again. Not only because errors are to be found in any human endeavor, but because an effort like this, to repeal a hundred years and more of evil, is brand-new on the face of the earth. But now is the time to stick together like the brothers and sisters we are, to stand side by side in this fight against the media toadies, warmongers, and Wall Street rip-off artists who stand against us, and who always remind me of Tolkein's Orcs.

If you have suggestions for me to do better, I want to hear them. But beating back the enemy, teaching so many young people and others about liberty, that is our victory, and it is real and permanent. Won't you link arms with me? We will have more vote victories too, if we stick together and do not let the enemy divide us.

As you know, and as our neocon enemies try to cover up, we are in a financial crisis. It may chug along at this pace, slowly into recession, or it might drop off a cliff, like the dollar. In that case, we will have the only coherent solution, and we must get our message out.

All my life, I've been working to make sure that when the Fed had done its work, and the special interests had looted the system to their hearts' content, and there was a crisis, I would be in a position to speak the truth about why, and what to do about it. In this fight, I need your heart, your mind, your time, and your financial support. I also need you to become a precinct leader https://voters.ronpaul2008.com/grassroots/ . What a fight we are in. What stakes there are. Together, we can build a new America faithful to the values of the framers. Bother the enemy, help the good cause: make your most generous contribution https://www.ronpaul2008.com/donate/, and let's roll up our sleeves and get to work, together.

Sincerely,

Ron

 

Paid for by the Ron Paul 2008 Presidential Campaign Committee.

thanks bob, my sleeves are rolled up.

Clever and flippant responses do not help.  Never mind.  I am very likely, a lost cause. 

 

The candidate who most clearly agrees with me on most of the issues is McCain.  I am a Vermonter, so while I don't typically think of myself as being representative of New Hampshire, they are Independent in their politics, as am I.

 

The reason two small states appear to have an inordinant influence through early primaries is that each party starts pulling together for a strong finishing show behind a candidate they deem likely to win, and sometimes the dominoes fall that way, campaign funds dry up, and candidates drop out.

 

 

 

If you can get your head around reality, you'll understand my position.  Some people think they are firmly grounded in reality, I actually am.  Romantic though my ideals may be about human nature, as yours are about Liberty, the day to day of Plato's view of mankind is my ever present overlay.

 

 

Again, we won't reach any kind of agreement.  I don't trust Ron Paul as a President to do more than Jimmy Carter, whine about the people not doing their part.  Thank you for making the effort, though.  As I see it, you're in one of those totalitarian, if only the world would do things my way cycles, as is Ron Paul.   People are incredibly predictable.  Trouble is we don't imagine wearing the shoes of other people often enough.  Nor do we follow the chain of events to the unintended consequences proliferating out of Congress enough to be of much help though we the people, rule.

 

Some days, even I have a defeatist attitude.

 

Rosy fingered dawn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

nickel,

 

we agree on quite a lot, just have somewhat different views.

 

for instance, i know that you can smell the foul odor coming out of washington as do i. where we differ is in our ideas of how to eradicate it.

 

my head is firmly wrapped around and in reality. you sell yourself short a little when you differentiate realism from romanticism. romance is an integral part of reality as is liberty. and i am not talking corollary here, i am talking cause and effect objectivity. liberty and romanticism are also both firmly within the realm of human nature.

 

where we part company in the most serious way is where you call constitutionalism "one of those totalitarian, if only the world would do things my way cycles."

 

oddly, that is a spin so wild that i have not even seen fox news try to go there. and fox is trying very very hard to discredit this man. so i have to give you points for a unique perspective at least.

 

however this does kinda become more clear when you inject plato into the mix. for god's sake, you may as well just quote marx.

 

your favoring mccain tells me that you think the war in iraq is a good thing and that the man who can best carry on the bush legacy is the man for you. heavy disagreement there.

 

as for comparing paul to carter, there is actually one thing they have in common. carter was elected as remedy for the foulness of the nixon administration and paul's supporters are pretty much of the same attitude about the bush administration. the comparison ends there. while carter may have whined about the people not doing their job (i can think of no immediate reference to this but i suppose it kinda fits) dr. paul will challenge us to do ours. and it is up to us to do or die. literally.

 

don't trust the man, put his feet to the fire.

 

now, please point out to me, for my own edification, where you perceived me to be clever and flippant. thank you in advance.

Clever and flippant:

 

 

 

 

You're thinking of yourself as Constitutional, and I was thinking Libertarian with the following:

 

 

 

Nothing totalitarian about our Constitution.  Nothing inflexible about it, either.

We have strayed far; I'll give you that. 

 

We have deferred to our "betters", sometimes to our better natures, and failed to clearly delineate what it is reasonable to expect of our governing entities.  Job creep.  I'd like someone to axe medicare, medicaid, and the Department of Agriculture, saving out a few of it's basic good intentions, but not  the Department of Education which out of hand, Paul would cut.   It has a good purpose, mission, and is the only entity capable of performing studies of effective school performance and best education practices for the states and local school districts to avail themselves of when current practices are not working for them.  Textbook recommendations, teacher qualifications, administrative support, and efficient buildings, effective plant construction models, student populations, and teacher student ratios for certain courses.  As it is the individual districts and the states muck along, guessing and hoping what they're doing helps.

 

...sorry about that digression.

 

 

Marx had a few good points about the working class.  Wasn't his error in failing to realize how little man would settle for, how far short of satisfactory change would kill a movement's progress?  Shoot even Hitler had a few good ideas, if you consider not the whole horrifying picture but his use of corporatism, youth programs and their effectiveness in building pride.  Pride.  Everyone wants to feel it.  Too bad it seems to require a scapegoat, or being better than some other group of people.  Anathema.

 

   

Government can make a difference, a positive difference:  knowing when and how seems to be the problem.  Shifting its responsibilities onto the people and calling it personal responsibility is an outrageous fraud.  FDR had it right, and so did Theodore Roosevelt.  Kennedy would have gotten it right, had he been given the opportunity.  It's not all our fault, nor all the government's fault.  Untangling who is at fault and correcting it requires more patience than most people have, and more time on the planet than any of us have.  Plato's dialogues are full of people you know:  they live on your street, work at city hall, in the state legislature, Congress.   We have not come very far from his times.

 

I believe in western democracy as the Greeks initiated it.  Not the abridged versions of it that we see in practice everywhere, today, that are called western.  If you've read, Who Killed Homer?, you know what I mean. 

 

Again, thanks for engaging the ideas. 

Keeps me thinking; maybe I missed something.

 

 

McCain, I trust will get us out of Iraq.  It won't be perceived as a loss, like Vietnam, either.  We won in Vietnam, but who knows it?  Say something often enough, and persuasively enough, and unfortunately that makes the perception a reality.  False, but very real.  We ended their civil war, didn't we?  That was the mission, wasn't it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

awww nickel, where to begin?

 

there is nothin flippant about that statement, it is the straight up poop. it is really not a whole lot more complicated than that.

 

constitutional is libertarian. where do you get totalitarian from liberty? you my want to go to the libertarian party site (easy google) and read the platform. it is nothing but a clear eyed explanation of the constitution.

 

and the constitution is quite inflexible with regard to limiting the powers of government.

 

one thing to always keep in mind. the constitution is yours, it does not belong to the american bar association, the supreme court, congress or the president. the preamble makes that quite clear.

to say that the constitution is a "living breathing document meant to change with the times" is just a slick way of saying "the constitution is dead"

 

i will give you that the constitution is barely breathing right now, and gien a little time i could make a very good case on how the wonderful system of education that you so ambitiously tout, is a good part of the reason.

 

social conditioning is not education. and, to be honest, i would have to say that you show most, if not all, the symptoms of having been indoctrinated by the system.

 

transcendence is probably the first duty of anyone who craves liberty. acceptance is nothing but slow death.

 

as for mccain and all the other neocons running on both sides of the aisle, i will defer to david icke:

http://www.rense.com/general80/icke.htm 

 

it is a good read, and will give us lots of bones to pick i am sure.

You could pay attention, read more carefully, but you don't.

 

I can't help you.

That is all well and good for him to want to give people a choice. However, having been the victim of one major stock market crash when we were about to retire, and seeing our 401K that we are about to retire on falling to pieces yet again, how can anyone guarantee and one red cent of that money is going to be there when the kids get ready to retire?  Or is there going to be a new school subject to teach people how to gamble in the stock market? 

 

I don't think that a "choice" is such a hot idea because most young people with kids to raise are going to choose to wait until it's too late to start thinking about retirement money and the country will be right back in the same boat they were when FDR got Social Security going.

 

Yes, it was meant to be a temporary program.  And no, people-- at least people like me-- cannot live entirely on their social security benefits. But if the money hadn't been stolen or embezzled or whatever you want to call what they did to fleece the fund, this wouldn't even be an issue today. 

 

Someone has to come up with a better program than a "choice."  Bush wants that, by the way.

But if the money hadn't been stolen or embezzled or whatever you want to call what they did to fleece the fund, this wouldn't even be an issue today. 

 

JuniusJnr

What money was stolen, SSIC or your stock investments?

Bob

oom,

 

my hat is off to those members of your family who have done well in the stock market.

i hope that they all have the foresight to divest their portfolios into hard commodities before the bubble bursts and they find that the monopoly money they have been playing with is worthless.

 

this country is currently carrying a debt that is approaching 60 trillion fed bucks.your personal piece of this debt is around $175,000 as is mine. since i have not made several million in the stock market, i hereby default.

 

you do not own anything that this rogue government cannot take away from you on a whim. the "money" you possess is nothing but a "promise" to pay. a promise from the most untrustworthy of subhuman organizations on the planet, the rothschild/fed/corporate bankind complex.

 

if you were born in this country, your birth certificate is on file in washington. not to establish and protect your birthright, but as collateral to the fed system against loans made by our government.

 

in short, you are owned and up for grabs to any debtor to which our government has become obligated.

 

there is only one candidate in this race for the white house who understands this and wants to stop it while it can still be stopped. all the others are corporate shills.

 

there will either be a revolution which will, no doubt, lead to a period of relative chaos while social adjustment is made, or there will be a closed and stifled society of lockstep oppression and despair.

 

i believe that the fear of that period of adjustment may be what is keeping people from fighting for a better future for humanity. and if i am right, it is a very sad thing.

 

 

nickel

 

you are correct, you cannot help me. and you are too far gone.

----- Original Message -----

From: puma2371

To: Libertarian the Answer

Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:32 AM

Subject: Re: Ron Paul Interviews Etc.

-----------------------------------------------------------

New Message on Libertarian the Answer

-----------------------------------------------------------
From: puma2371
Message 27 in Discussion

oom,   my hat is off to those members of your family who have done well in the stock market.  i hope that they all have the foresight to divest their portfolios into hard commodities before the bubble bursts and they find that the monopoly money they have been playing with is worthless.   this country is currently carrying a debt that is approaching 60 trillion fed bucks.your personal piece of this debt is around $175,000 as is mine. since i have not made several million in the stock market, i hereby default.   you do not own anything that this rogue government cannot take away from you on a whim. the "money" you possess is nothing but a "promise" to pay. a promise from the most untrustworthy of subhuman organizations on the planet, the rothschild/fed/corporate bankind complex.   if you were born in this country, your birth certificate is on file in washington. not to establish and protect your birthright, but as collateral to the fed system against loans made by our government.    in short, you are owned and up for grabs to any debtor to which our government has become obligated.   there is only one candidate in this race for the white house who understands this and wants to stop it while it can still be stopped. all the others are corporate shills.   there will either be a revolution which will, no doubt, lead to a period of relative chaos while social adjustment is made, or there will be a closed and stifled society of lockstep oppression and despair.   i believe that the fear of that period of adjustment may be what is keeping people from fighting for a better future for humanity. and if i am right, it is a very sad thing.     nickel   you are correct, you cannot help me. and you are too far gone.

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i dont know oom,

 

you say that we are talking about two entirely different things and then make a different case.

 

what we are witnessing, as we speak, is not a repeat of the 29 crash. there is a glaring difference that most are not seeing because the media is not pointing it out.

 

that difference is in the nature of money. during the crash of 29 the saving grace was that the value of the dollar actually rose. during the meltdown of 08, the opposite is taking place along with the unraveling of the economy.

 

the similarity between the two is that both were contrived and both were used by an "elite" few to buy up vast assets at bargain prices.

 

you have to understand that the "fed system" is just a temporary tool that was set in place to facilitate the greatest theft in the history of man. it has run its course, it has done its job.

 

the only thing that can save the dignity of humanity at this point is, how much of a backlash are we, at this point, capable of rendering?

 

its not about money any more. the economy is being removed from the table.

 

and when i talk about hard commodities, i am not talking about futures of certificates of ownership. i am talking about tangeable assets that you possess to help you survive.

Not to mention 20 million more of them that have been working in this country  with fake social security numbers...........

The social security money that people put away for years was stolen, embezzeled, diverted, whatever you want to call it.

 

Our 401K went south when the market crash took place in the 1990's and has never been recovered.

 

I have a feeling the market is about to crash again because the big dudes seem to be manipulating the stock market by buying and selling every day.  Something isn't right and you can bet  it is the taxpayers and the average citizens who are going to get the shaft.

 

I dont' care what any of you say, the stock market IS a gamble and if people are forced to gamble their money away so that industries who currently own the government can rake in funds, then it is not only immoral it is illegal!

 

CD's are just money you let the bank gamble with on our behalf. You can still end up losing your shirt or, even if you get your money back out of it, you may not have gained anything for having let them keep it.  We have several CD's. I don't see any significant gains in any of them. We have two money market accouts, Again, no significant gain.  Of course the stock market goes up and down like a yo yo but there is no doubt in my mind that a day will come when it will crash.