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Faith-Religion : How much did Christianity inherit from the Pagans?
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 Message 1 of 17 in Discussion 
From: slywench  (Original Message)Sent: 12/22/2007 8:57 AM

How much did Christianity inherit from the Pagans?

The POCM web site introduces you to the mainstream modern scholarship about Christianity's origins in ancient Pagan religion.

You already know Christmas trees and Easter eggs were originally Pagan, and you probably know the traditional mid-winter and spring timing of the two holidays was Pagan too. Mildly interesting. Not what you'll find here.

What you'll discover here is that Christianity inherited everything from the Pagans. The core of Christianity -- the worship of a dying Godman who is resurrected, ascends into heaven and brings salvation to mankind -- was also the core of a number of ancient Pagan religions that began in the Near East two thousand years before Jesus.

Christian theology borrowed more than the archaic myth of the dying-resurrected Godman. Initiation by baptism, communion with the God through a holy meal that represented the flesh of the dead God, the Holy Spirit, monotheism, and immortality of the soul were all core beliefs of many ancient faiths. They were simply part of ancient Mediterranean culture.

Christianity also borrowed elements of Jesus' mythology: the virgin birth, the miracles (including turning water into wine, walking on water, and especially healing the sick) were all common elements of pre-Christian Pagan religions. Mithras had 'em. So did Dionysus, Attis, Osiris, and Orpheus. And more. And they had them centuries before Christianity was a twinkle in Saint Paul's eye.

 

Jesus brought salvation. Osiris brought salvation 1,400 years earlier.

 

 

Want to know more? Sure you do. Let's go look.



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 Message 3 of 17 in Discussion 
From: slywenchSent: 12/22/2007 9:07 AM
“A Visit from St. Nicholas"
 
Clement Clarke Moore

Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the house
Not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse.
The stockings were hung by the chimney with care,
In hopes that St Nicholas soon would be there.

The children were nestled all snug in their beds,
While visions of sugar-plums danced in their heads.
And mamma in her ‘kerchief, and I in my cap,
Had just settled our brains for a long winter’s nap.

When out on the lawn there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from the bed to see what was the matter.
Away to the window I flew like a flash,
Tore open the shutters and threw up the sash.

The moon on the breast of the new-fallen snow
Gave the lustre of mid-day to objects below.
When, what to my wondering eyes should appear,
But a miniature sleigh, and eight tinny reindeer.

With a little old driver, so lively and quick,
I knew in a moment it must be St Nick.
More rapid than eagles his coursers they came,
And he whistled, and shouted, and called them by name!

"Now Dasher! now, Dancer! now, Prancer and Vixen!
On, Comet! On, Cupid! on, on Donner and Blitzen!
To the top of the porch! to the top of the wall!
Now dash away! Dash away! Dash away all!"

As dry leaves that before the wild hurricane fly,
When they meet with an obstacle, mount to the sky.
So up to the house-top the coursers they flew,
With the sleigh full of Toys, and St Nicholas too.

And then, in a twinkling, I heard on the roof
The prancing and pawing of each little hoof.
As I drew in my head, and was turning around,
Down the chimney St Nicholas came with a bound.

He was dressed all in fur, from his head to his foot,
And his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot.
A bundle of Toys he had flung on his back,
And he looked like a peddler, just opening his pack.

His eyes-how they twinkled! his dimples how merry!
His cheeks were like roses, his nose like a cherry!
His droll little mouth was drawn up like a bow,
And the beard of his chin was as white as the snow.

The stump of a pipe he held tight in his teeth,
And the smoke it encircled his head like a wreath.
He had a broad face and a little round belly,
That shook when he laughed, like a bowlful of jelly!

He was chubby and plump, a right jolly old elf,
And I laughed when I saw him, in spite of myself!
A wink of his eye and a twist of his head,
Soon gave me to know I had nothing to dread.

He spoke not a word, but went straight to his work,
And filled all the stockings, then turned with a jerk.
And laying his finger aside of his nose,
And giving a nod, up the chimney he rose!

He sprang to his sleigh, to his team gave a whistle,
And away they all flew like the down of a thistle.
But I heard him exclaim, ‘ere he drove out of sight,
"Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good-night!"


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 Message 4 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameOpar5Sent: 1/2/2008 8:38 PM
One of the continuing tools used to expand Christianity was to embrace local, pagan gods as having been Christian Saints.all along - not unlike Mohammed claiming the Jewish prophets were actually speaking for Allah and Islam..

Zeus, Jupiter, or any number of other pagan "gods" impregnating mortal women was absolutely commonplace. Jupiter's prediction that one such son would overthrow him and his kind came to pass, thanks to Constantine. No?

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 Message 5 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamedoonjonSent: 1/4/2008 9:30 PM

In the initial decades of the Roman Empire, at the eastern end of the

Mediterranean, a new religion, Christianity, emerged. Much of the impetus for this new religion rested in issues in the Jewish religion, including a

long-standing belief in the coming of a Messiah and rigidities that had

developed in the Jewish priesthood. Whether or not Christianity was created by God, as Christians believe, the early stages of the religion focused on

cleansing the Jewish religion of stiff rituals and haughty leaders. It had

little at first to do with Roman culture. Christianity arose in a remote

province and appealed particularly to the poorer classes. It is not easy, as a

result, to fit Christianity neatly into the patterns of Roman history: It was

deliberately separate, and only gradually had wider impact.

 

Christianity originated with Jesus of Nazareth, a Jewish prophet and

teacher who probably came to believe he was the Son of God and certainly was regarded as such by his disciples. Jesus preached in Israel during the time of Augustus, urging a purification of the Jewish religion that would free Israel and establish the kingdom of God on earth. He urged a moral code based on love, charity, and humility, and he asked the faithful to follow his lessons, abandoning worldly concern. Many disciples believed that a Final Judgment day was near at hand, on which God would reward the righteous with immortality and condemn sinners to everlasting hell.


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 Message 6 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamedoonjonSent: 1/4/2008 9:41 PM
Any links to ancient pagan rites and and festivals where introduced by the pagan Romans.  Remember the Roman Emperor Constantine who was mis-credited with the growth of Christianity in Europe and later into America via the Founding Fathers and other  immigrants from the four corners of Europe.  Never converted to Christianity despite being cannonised a Saint by the Roman Catholics Popes who where themselves Romans during the inaugerating centuries of the History of Christianity in Europe.

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 Message 7 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamedoonjonSent: 1/4/2008 10:20 PM

Early Christians

The first Christians were Jewish Christians. The Pentateuch was of great importance to them and they kept its laws, keeping the sabbath and performing circumcision.

Christian beliefs were spreading largely among Jews, and Christianity was a group within Judaism.

They were called Jewish Christians because their membership consisted largely of Jews who had joined them and followed their beliefs and teachings.

They believed Jesus was a prophet who had tried to make people more aware of the intent of the Pentateuch and had tried to intensify the application of its laws.

As Jews had in any case to follow and live according to the Pentateuch's laws, so what were Jews and Jewish Christians arguing about?

At issue are the laws of behaviour and the social system which are laid down in the Pentateuch {13}:

The Pentateuch states that all are equal, that no person may oppress or exploit another, that all have the right to be free and be independent masters of their own fate.

Every person is entitled as a matter of right to social security. This means that people are entitled to be supported by the community not only when they fall on hard times but also to maintain their independence as independent breadwinners for their families.

For example, the community has to provide backup funds to those who need them and they have to be provided as and when required. To prevent people being exploited through their need these funds have to be provided without charging interest and such 'loans' are cancelled every seventh year if the borrower has been unable to repay them.

The country's wealth, and this applies particularly to productive capital, belongs to all equally and has to be shared out. This equal and fair distribution of the community's wealth has to be updated at regular intervals.

The role of those who are rich is seen to be that of administering their wealth and money on behalf of and for the community and not that of enriching themselves at the expense of the community.

The laws of the Pentateuch have to be followed and applied by Jews as a matter of law in their daily lives.

However, it was such laws of behaviour and such social system laws which the rich simply did not want to apply and they, the rich and powerful, had the application of the laws changed to suit themselves:  13-16

Jesus tried to reverse this situation and to have such laws applied by people in their everyday lives.

Paul

Paul was Jewish and persecuted the Christians who were renewing their knowledge of the laws and the application of the laws in their daily lives. So he was acting on the side of, that is for, the oppressive establishment.

He was unsuccessful in this as Jewish Christianity spread and continued to spread.

He then said that he had had a 'vision' and called himself a Christian but he preached not for but against the social laws and against the social system of the Pentateuch. He preached against material independence, against social security, against freedom from oppression and exploitation.

What he preached was the political ideology of an oppressive establishment which wanted to be able to oppress so as to exploit without hindrance.

This brought him into conflict with Jewish Christians and with the mostly Jewish Christian communities. He then concentrated on gaining converts from gentiles (people who are not Jewish) who presumably knew nothing or little about the laws of the Pentateuch and who would thus be more likely to follow his teachings without arguing about its content.

Paul's letters (epistles) are the oldest part of the New Testament. The Gospels followed - as far as we know Matthew's was written first, then Mark's, then Luke's. Luke also wrote The Acts. It seems that Paul's letters were written about 50 AD and the gospels about 70-100 AD.

What stands out is that no one before Paul wrote such letters and that no one did so afterwards. They give his own point of view and personal ideology and he gives them an authority which they would not otherwise have had by means of a self-proclaimed vision.

The gospels as a whole relate to the life and death of Jesus but Paul's letters seem to be more a vehicle for pronouncements directed against observance of laws ensuring freedom, independence and equality.

Paul's teachings were accepted to a considerable extent and the Gentile Christians' stories about the beginning of Christianity do differ from those of the Jewish Christians. It is the versions of the Gentile Christians which were included in the Christian Canon and became official doctrine.

I suppose that what I am saying is that changes which were made as time progressed were at times 'politically' motivated towards putting across Paul's 'message', towards indoctrinating people with the political ideology of an oppressive establishment which wanted to be able to oppress so as to exploit without hindrance.


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 Message 8 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameOpar5Sent: 1/5/2008 9:44 PM
doonion,

Where do you get your information? A much more reliable source is The Teaching Company www.TEACH12.com , their "Lost Christianities: Christian Scriptures and the Battles over Authentication" is probably the best. These DVDs introduces you to the wide range of Christian beliefs prior to the first Counil of Nicea (@ 375AD) which established Christian orthodoxy (labeling all others "heretics") under Constantine.

One sect (Marcionites) had it that the gods of the Old and New Testaments were two different gods and survived well into the fifth century; another that there were many different gods. The Ebonites, likely the closest to the historical Jesus and most ancient sect (followers of Jesus' brother James after Jesus' death) all followed Jewish law, believed Jesus was a non-divine Messiah; the Coptic Orthodox Church (still exists in Ehtiopia) believed Jesus was purely divine and never became human. Then there were the Ghassanids, Lakhmids, Monophysites, Nestorians and more.

The reality is that nobody knows much about Jesus or what he taught. He was never known to have violated Jewish law. The way I read the evidence, he was very likely an early member of the "Zealot's Revolt" against Rome, that got, first John the "Baptist," then Jesus killed, and Judea destroyed a few decades later.

The various manipulations of the Church that use him as an icon, however, would likely have horrified him.

Reply
 Message 9 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameOpar5Sent: 5/23/2008 8:50 PM
Just learned that Jesus of the Catholic Church may have been a construct based on the Egyptain god Horus.

Reply
 Message 10 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameÐråġøñ§pêllšSent: 5/23/2008 10:00 PM
Yes, the comparison is pretty amazing.

Reply
 Message 11 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameÐråġøñ§pêllšSent: 5/23/2008 10:02 PM
Event Horus Yeshua of Nazareth, a.k.a. Jesus
Conception: By a virgin. There is some doubt about this matter By a virgin. 8
Father: Only begotten son of the God Osiris. Only begotten son of Yehovah (in the form of the Holy Spirit).
Mother: Meri. 9 Miriam (a.k.a. Mary).
Foster father: Seb, (Jo-Seph). 9 Joseph.
Foster father's ancestry: Of royal descent. Of royal descent.
Birth location: In a cave. In a cave or stable.
Annunciation: By an angel to Isis, his mother. By an angel to Miriam, his mother. 8
Birth heralded by: The star Sirius, the morning star. An unidentified "star in the East."
Birth date: Ancient Egyptians paraded a manger and child representing Horus through the streets at the time of the winter solstice (typically DEC-21). Celebrated on DEC-25. The date was chosen to occur on the same date as the birth of Mithra, Dionysus and the Sol Invictus (unconquerable Sun), etc.
Birth announcement: By angels. By angels. 8
Birth witnesses: Shepherds. Shepherds. 8
Later witnesses to birth: Three solar deities. Three wise men. 8
Death threat during infancy: Herut tried to have Horus murdered. Herod tried to have Jesus murdered.
Handling the threat: The God That tells Horus' mother "Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child." An angel tells Jesus' father to: "Arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt."
Rite of passage ritual: Horus came of age with a special ritual,  when his eye was restored. Taken by parents to the temple for what is today called a bar mitzvah ritual.
Age at the ritual: 12 12
Break in life history: No data between ages of 12 & 30. No data between ages of 12 & 30.
Baptism location: In the river Eridanus. In the river Jordan.
Age at baptism: 30. 30.
Baptized by: Anup the Baptiser. John the Baptist.
Subsequent fate of the baptiser: Beheaded. Beheaded.
Temptation: Taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain by his arch-rival Sut. Sut (a.k.a. Set) was a precursor for the Hebrew Satan. Taken from the desert in Palestine up a high mountain by his arch-rival Satan.
Result of temptation: Horus resists temptation. Jesus resists temptation.
Close followers: Twelve disciples. There is some doubt about this matter as well. Twelve disciples.
Activities: Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. He "stilled the sea by his power." Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. He ordered the sea with a "Peace, be still" command.
Raising of the dead: Horus raised Osirus, his dead father,  from the grave. 10 Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave.
Location where the resurrection miracle occurred: Anu, an Egyptian city where the rites of the death, burial and resurrection of Horus were enacted annually. 10 Hebrews added their prefix for house ('beth") to "Anu" to produce "Beth-Anu" or the "House of Anu." Since "u" and "y" were interchangeable in antiquity, "Bethanu" became "Bethany," the location mentioned in John 11.
Origin of Lazarus' name in the Gospel of John:   Asar was an alternative name for Osirus, Horus' father, who Horus raised from the dead. He was referred to as "the Asar," as a sign of respect. Translated into Hebrew, this is "El-Asar." The Romans added the prefix "us" to indicate a male name, producing "Elasarus." Over time, the "E" was dropped and "s" became "z," producing "Lazarus." 10
Transfigured: On a mountain. On a high mountain.
Key address(es): Sermon on the Mount. Sermon on the Mount; Sermon on the Plain.
Method of death By crucifixion. By crucifixion.
Accompanied by: Two thieves. Two thieves.
Burial In a tomb. In a tomb.
Fate after death: Descended into Hell; resurrected after three days. Descended into Hell; resurrected after about 30 to 38 hours (Friday PM to presumably some time in Sunday AM) covering parts of three days.
Resurrection announced by: Women. Women.
Future: Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium. Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium


Characteristics Horus Yeshua of Nazareth, a.k.a. Jesus
Nature" Regarded as a mythical character. Regarded as a 1st century CE human man-god.
Main role: Savior of humanity. Savior of humanity.
Status: God-man. God-man.
Common portrayal: Virgin Isis holding the infant Horus. Virgin Mary holding the infant Jesus.
Title: KRST, the anointed one. Christ, the anointed one.
Other names: The good shepherd, the lamb of God, the bread of life, the son of man, the Word, the fisher, the winnower. The good shepherd, the lamb of God, the bread of life, the son of man, the Word, the fisher, the winnower.
Zodiac sign: Associated with Pisces, the fish. Associated with Pisces, the fish.
Main symbols: Fish, beetle, the vine, shepherd's crook. Fish, beetle, the vine, the shepherd's crook.


Characteristics Horus Yeshua of Nazareth, a.k.a. Jesus
Criteria for salvation at the place of judgment: "I have given bread to the hungry man and water to the thirsty man and clothing to the naked person and a boat to the shipwrecked mariner." 11 "For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me..." Matthew 25:35-36 (KJV).
"I am" statements
bullet "I am Horus in glory...I am the Lord of Light...I am the victorious one...I am the heir of endless time...I, even I, am he that knoweth the paths of heaven." 12
bullet "I am Horus, the Prince of Eternity."
bullet "I am Horus who stepeth onward through eternity...Eternity and everlastingness is my name."
bullet "I am the possessor of bread in Anu. I have bread in heaven with Ra."

 

bullet "I am the light of the world....I am the way, the truth and the life."
bullet "Before Abraham was, I am"
bullet "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today and forever."
bullet "I am the living bread that came down from heaven."

(From the Gospel of John)

 


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 Message 12 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameÐråġøñ§pêllšSent: 5/23/2008 10:08 PM
The very first signs of Monotheistic religion was in Egypt. The pharoh Akhenaten (aka Amenhoteop IV) instituted monotheism, but it was short-lived. Egyptian society was returned to polytheism and his followers and priests went underground, worshipping in private. It's thought that these Atenists began what would become Judaism, and later Christianity.

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 Message 13 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameOpar5Sent: 5/24/2008 1:51 AM
(# 12) There are arguments that early Hinduism was monotheistic long before Akhenaton, with Brahman - still the only God, as all the rest are considered avatars/different facets of Brahman.
 
A number of well-educated Hindus who are familiar with Panentheism have suggested that this "Philosophers Faith" is probably what Hinduism was before the scholars and clerics started adding the humanizing avatars, stories, and concepts.    I agree, and subscribe to the faith - until I can find some critical illogical or scientific fault therein.     I'll take all the help I can get - even offer a prize.
 
As for the faith of Abram/Abraham: check the Mesopotamian Storm God of Abram's pre-Jewish life.   Again, too many parallels with Jehovah to discount and too logical chains of reasoning to explain the beginnings of Judaism as a people and faith - quite different from the Torah.



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 Message 14 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameOpar5Sent: 5/24/2008 2:32 AM
(# 11) Good show Dragon,
 
The many commonalities between Jesus and Horus can hardly be accounted for by coincidence.    There was considerable dispute as to who and what Jesus was among the various sects calling themselves Christians following Jesus' death, until Rome defined Jesus and labeled all his non-agreeing followers - including those who knew him - heretics.     Of course, Rome couldn't admit killing the icon they'd recently adopted, so they blamed the Jews.    A common practice of curs ever since.



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Sent: 6/1/2008 3:03 AM
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 Message 17 of 17 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameOpar5Sent: 6/1/2008 7:04 AM
(# 15) On what do you base your claim, cf?

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