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Old Geek's : ??? Is the Old Testament a book of muythology ???/Old Geek
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 Message 1 of 13 in Discussion 
From: Aprilborn  (Original Message)Sent: 1/11/2004 10:56 PM
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Recommend Delete    Message 1 of 23 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameTheOldGeek1</NOBR>  (Original Message) Sent: 12/16/2003 5:37 AM
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Conseiller Supprimer    Message 15 sur 17 dans la discussion 
De : <NOBR>Surnom MSNTheOldGeek1</NOBR> Envoyé : 2003-12-15 21:42
cath,
 
the precise reason is that it was written in clay that was baked when the city was burned. Normal dried out clay doesn't have such a long shelves time. So what we have from those times is what was written on the verge of Wars.
 
There are many parralels between O.T. and those earlier mythologies. Only names and part of God's intents where changed. Could O.T. be also a mythology?
 

VII. I've heard there are Biblical parallels in Babylonian literature. What are they anyway?

Genesis: Creation of the universe
Ps:74:12-17 - YHWH vs. Leviathan; Marduk vs Tiamat. In the Enuma Elish, tablet IV, Marduk defeats the ocean goddess, Tiamat who is often depicted as a multi-headed dragon. He splits her apart, as YHWH splits apart the sea in Ps 74:13. He crushes her skull as YHWH crushes the skulls of the monster Leviathan in Ps 74:13-14. In tablet V, Marduk causes the crescent moon to appear, creates the seasons, the night and day, and creates springs from Tiamat's eyes, to form the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, as YHWH does in Ps 74:15-17 (Hooke p.106, Dalley pp.253-257)

Creation of humans.

Fall of man.
Adapa was the first "apkallu" (sage/priest), not the first man or first patriarch. He was given wisdom (knowledge of good and evil?) but not immortality. When in heaven (sent there for having broken the South Wind's wing), he is offered bread and water of eternal life. He refuses it, however having been tricked by Ea (in serpent role?) stating that he would be offered the bread and water of death instead. (Dalley pp. 182-188) In other references to the seven apkallu, he is the counsellor paired with the first anteluvian king on the Sumerian king lists (Dalley p. 328), Alulim - not Alulim himself, who was Adam's analog in patriarchal order.

Tower of Babel

As with the Sumerians, the most striking Biblical parallel within Akkadian myth is in the story of the flood. For the Babylonian account, see the entries on Atrahasis and Utnapishtim above.

Exodus - According to legend, Sargon was left in a basket in the Euphrates as an infant and "rose 'from an ark of bulrushes'" (Oppenheim, Ancient Mesopotamia p. 101). His adoptive father was a "laborer in a palm garden who spotted the basket containing the remarkable child" (Crawford p. 42) Sargon was originally the cupbearer to a king (Ur-Zababa) before achieving leadership on his own. (Crawford p. 25)

Weeping for Tammuz and the month of Tammuz.

VI. I've heard that there are a lot of Biblical parallels in Sumerian literature. What are they?

Traces of Sumerian religion survive today and are reflected in writings of the Bible. As late as Ezekiel, there is mention of a Sumerian deity. In Ezekiel 8:14, the prophet sees women of Israel weeping for Tammuz (Dumuzi) during a drought.

The bulk of Sumerian parallels can, however be found much earlier, in the book of Genesis. As in Genesis, the Sumerians' world is formed out of the watery abyss and the heavens and earth are divinely separated from one another by a solid dome. The second chapter of Genesis introduces the paradise Eden, a place which is similar to the Sumerian Dilmun, described in the myth of "Enki and Ninhursag". Dilmun is a pure, bright, and holy land - now often identified with Bahrain in the Persian Gulf. It is blessed by Enki to have overflowing, sweet water. Enki fills it with lagoons and palm trees. He impregnates Ninhursag and causes eight new plants to grow from the earth. Eden, "in the East" (Gen. 2:8) has a river which also "rises" or overflows, to form four rivers including the Tigris and Euphrates. It too is lush and has fruit bearing trees. (Gen. 2:9-10) In the second version of the creation of man "The Lord God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being." Enki and Ninmah (Ninhursag) use a similar method in creating man. Nammu, queen of the abyss and Enki's mother, bids Enki to "Kneed the 'heart' of the clay that is over the Abzu " and "give it form" (Kramer & Maier p. 33) From there the similarities cease as the two create several malformed humans and then the two deities get into an argument.

Returning to Enki and Ninhursag, we find a possible parallel to the creation of Eve. Enki consumed the plants that were Ninhursag's children and so was cursed by Ninhursag, receiving one wound for each plant consumed. Enlil and a fox act on Enki's behalf to call back Ninhursag in order to undo the damage. She joins with him again and bears eight new children, each of whom are the cure to one of his wounds. The one who cures his rib is named Ninti, whose name means the Queen of months, (Kramer & Maier 1989: pp. 28-30) the lady of the rib, or she who makes live. This association carries over to Eve. (Kramer, History Begins at Sumer 1981: pp. 143-144) In Genesis, Eve is fashioned from Adam's rib and her name hawwa is related to the Hebrew word hay or living. (New American Bible p. 7.) The prologue of "Gilgamesh, Enkidu and the Underworld" may contain the predecessor to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This tree not only contains a crafty serpent, but also Lilith, the legendary first wife of Adam. The huluppu tree is transplanted by Inanna from the banks of the Euphrates to her garden in Uruk, where she finds that:

...a serpent who could not be charmed
made its nest in the roots of the tree,
The
Anzu bird set his young in the branches of the tree,
And the dark maid Lilith built her home in the trunk. (
Wolkstein and Kramer 1983: p. 8)

It should be noted that Kramer's interpretation that this creature is Lilith has come into quiestion of late.

Another possible Sumerian carry-over related to the Fall of man is the lack of "pangs of childbearing" for those in Dilmun. In particular, Ninhursag gives birth in nine days, not nine months, and the pass "like good princely cream" (Kramer 1981: p. 142,145) or "fine oil" (Kramer & Maier 1989: p. 25)

The quarrels between herder god and farmer deity pairs such as Lahar and Ashnan or Enten and Emesh are similar in some respects to the quarrels of Cain and Abel. In the Sumerian versions death appears to be avoided, although we do not have the complete Lahar and Ashnan story. (Kramer 1961 pp. 49-51, 53-54)

The ten patriarchs in Genesis born prior to the flood lived very long lives, most in excess of 900 years. The seventh patriarch, Enoch, lived only 365 years before he "walked with God". (Genesis 5). The account which numbers those Patriarchs as ten is attributed to the Priestly source. The Yahwist source (J), details only seven Patriarchs prior to Noah, so that with him included, there are eight antediluvian patriarchs. (Genesis 4: 17-18) The eight antediluvian kings of in the Sumerian King List also lived for hundreds of years. (Kramer 1963 p. 328) S. H. Hooke notes another version of the Sumerian King list, found in Larsa details ten antediluvian kings. (Hooke, p. 130) The clearest Biblical parallel comes from the story of the Flood. In the Sumerian version, the pious Ziusudra is informed of the gods decision to destroy mankind by listening to a wall. He too weathers the deluge aboard a huge boat. Noah's flood lasts a long time, but Ziusudra comes to rest within seven days and not the near year of the Bible. He does not receive a covenant, but is given eternal life. (Kramer 1963 pp. 163-164; Kramer 1961 pp. 97-98)

As far as the New Testament goes, many also draw a parallel between Dumuzi and Jesus because Dumuzi is a shepherd-king and he is resurrected from the dead. This is perhaps appealing to some as Dumuzi's Akkadian analog, Tammuz, appears in the Bible, however Dumuzi's periodic return from the underworld is not unique even in Sumerian literature. His sister Geshtinanna also rises from the dead, and if one counts those born as deities, Inanna does as well. Periodic death and rebirth is a common theme in agricultural myths where the return of the deities from the earth mirrors a return to life of plants.


Réponse
Conseiller Supprimer    Message 16 sur 17 dans la discussion 
De : <NOBR>Surnom MSNCatherine-----------</NOBR> Envoyé : 2003-12-16 05:01

the precise reason is that it was written in clay that was baked when the city was burned. Normal dried out clay doesn't have such a long shelves time. So what we have from those times is what was written on the verge of Wars.

Wars have been with us from time memorial, it certainly has not been an invention of the Israelites and their God, that is for sure.

There are many parralels between O.T. and those earlier mythologies. Only names and part of God's intents where changed. Could O.T. be also a mythology?

This is well worth examining in details...good point Geek. Maybe we should start a new thread? What do you reckon ?



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 Message 2 of 13 in Discussion 
From: AprilbornSent: 1/11/2004 10:56 PM
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Recommend Delete    Message 9 of 23 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameCatherine-----------</NOBR> Sent: 12/17/2003 7:13 AM

My own scepticism about taking the O.T. narratives at face value came from Jesus comdemnation of the Book keepers of his time. My reasoning was simple, if they weren't afraid to kill God's son so they could inherit God's property, why would they have kept God's revealed words in it's integrity? Why not distort a phrase here so the meaning would be that "the high priest is always infaillible" and replace a couple of words there so the meaning would be that "the gold of the temple is more valuable then the temple".

Geek, funny you should say this....

But Christ told them: "It is given unto you (His disciples) to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given ... therefore I speak unto them in parables (puzzles): because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

"And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them! " (Matthew 3:10-16).

Christ was telling them He was making a conscious decision to speak in puzzling terms, lest those people should understand, and become converted! Jesus Christ was referring to the O.T. many times....to me this indicates that it must be a valid.source of information....

 


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Recommend Delete    Message 10 of 23 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameCatherine-----------</NOBR> Sent: 12/17/2003 7:41 AM

15:8 �?B>This people honors me with their lips, but their heart13 is far from me,

15:9 and they worship me in vain, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.�?14

If this was so with their teachings, what about the Book that was the basis of their doctrines?

He said: "Think NOT that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets:

I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill" (Matt. 5:17). Christ lifted the law to a spiritual plateau, applied God's Ten Commandments in a spiritual sense, showing that the law was broken even by "thoughts of the human heart", and not by the breaking of the letter of the law only.

The basis of their doctrines were their own teachings, their own interests.


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Recommend Delete    Message 11 of 23 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameCatherine-----------</NOBR> Sent: 12/17/2003 11:50 AM

This polarisation is rapidly becoming an issue of 'blind faith' versus 'scientific scepticism' with little room for compromise. How can an academic then reconcile the two opposing sides?

Well, you are right Geek...

Evolution directly contradicts the Bible, which says "In the beginning God created..." Evolution says, instead, "In the beginning was the hydrogen atom."

Hmm, whichever way you look at it, it takes faith, except in the latter case, also a miracle.

So which came first...?


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Recommend Delete    Message 12 of 23 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameTheOldGeek1</NOBR> Sent: 12/17/2003 6:39 PM
cath,
 
The commandment of God is Love. It is somewhere inside us all, we are build with it. We Love God, therefore we Love God's creation, therefore we Love God's creature, therefore we Love Humanity, therefore we Love our self.
 
In 1930 Einstein wrote an article for the New York Times Magazine, “The Cosmic Religious Sense: The Non-Anthropomorphic Concept of God.�?In this article, Einstein wrote that Kepler, Galileo, and other scientists who had been labeled heretics and cast out by the Roman Catholic church seemed to him to be much more imbued with a faith in the exquisite intellectual orderliness and sublime integrity of Universe than were the topmost Roman Catholic clergy. Einstein said, “What faith in the orderliness of Universe must have inspired Kepler to spend all the nights of his life alone in contemplation of the stars.�?Einstein reasoned that humans cannot undertake that kind of total isolation unless they are deeply inspired and have absolute faith in, and a clear sense of, the integrated significance of that orderliness. This integrity Einstein spoke of as God. It was a nonanthropomorphic god„not shaped like humans or any creature whatsoever. Einstein described the demonstration by humans of such faith in the orderliness of Universe as constituting the cosmic religious sense. (More)
 
The commandments of men are in books. Like anything men do, they should pass. When Jesus talks in parables he does not talk for our mind to understand, he talks for our hearts to understand. When our hearts are too harden by the laws of men, we don't understand.
 
When a tribe wanted to justify their temporal superiority over another one, they invented an origin myth or transform another creation myth to put themselves on top of the god(s) favored children so to pretend that it was so from the begining and would stay so to the end of time. But this is from what is called anthropomorphic deism. We put our will and vision of the world as the will and vision of god. There is were I trace the line between mythology and true faith. When I read that god was angry at this person, it's mythology. When I read that God is "like" a father or the kingdom of God is "like" a wineyard, this sounds to me the true way to talk about it. Jesus parables speak more truth to me than any story about God writing magically his 10 commandments on a stone with an hebraic alphabet that wasn't invented yet.


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 Message 3 of 13 in Discussion 
From: AprilbornSent: 1/11/2004 10:56 PM
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Recommend Delete    Message 13 of 23 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameCatherine-----------</NOBR> Sent: 12/18/2003 10:29 AM
Just a little bit more on the flood...
 

In the 1920s, Sir Charles Woolley, a British archaeologist, while working at Tell al-Muqayyar, of Ur in Mesopotamia, made a startling discovery. He had been digging vertical shafts deep into the soil in the ancient city. As expected, he found layer after layer of evidence of human life - the remnants of graves, pottery, and rubble. But suddenly, it all stopped at a layer of pure clay that was approximately 10 feet thick. Such an abrupt and deep layer of clay, far above the ancient level of the nearby Euphrates river, was very unusual. It indicated a massive flood.

Woolley's workmen kept digging through the layer of sedimentary (i.e. water borne) clay, that had no evidence of human habitation, until it ended as abruptly as it started and they again found deposits of graves, pottery, rubble - but which were nothing at all like that found above the layer of water-deposited clay. The clay layer marked the boundary between two very different worlds, two very different civilizations, that Woolley declared were the before and after worlds of the flood. Woolley's findings made headline news in Britain and the United States at the time.

Jesus parables speak more truth to me than any story about God writing magically his 10 commandments on a stone with an hebraic alphabet that wasn't invented yet.

Geek, maybe I give you the wrong impression, i quite agree that the 10 commandments had not been put in force as to be in judgment of others, i don't think God meant it to be that way...but only as a help for people to live in peace with each other and have a happy life in general. Jesus Christ kept the 10 Commandments and taught men so, they can't be that bad hence forth...

but later.


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Recommend Delete    Message 14 of 23 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameCatherine-----------</NOBR> Sent: 12/18/2003 10:54 AM

The commandment of God is Love. It is somewhere inside us all, we are build with it. We Love God, therefore we Love God's creation, therefore we Love God's creature, therefore we Love Humanity, therefore we Love our self.

Geek, is this why we see wars and people hating each other ? I know there are many good people in the world and love does grow....but look around you and see already how hatred is being encouraged in some of the E.P threads, never mind in other places... love can grow cold very quickly too...is that the kind of love Jesus spoke of ? Think of the Jews how quickly they were hated by so many in Germany during WW2... or other minority groups...What about Zaire and Rwanda, how can such behaviour be possible with all that love in the human heart ?

Why does love grow cold so quickly ?


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Recommend Delete    Message 15 of 23 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameCatherine-----------</NOBR> Sent: 12/18/2003 1:41 PM

When I read that God is "like" a father or the kingdom of God is "like" a wineyard, this sounds to me the true way to talk about it. Jesus parables speak more truth to me than any story about God writing magically his 10 commandments on a stone with an hebraic alphabet that wasn't invented yet.

Yes Geek, very good comparison...but which of the ten commandments is so bad, that God had to send His Son to this earth to erase His mistake?

Christ said: "And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath:

"Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27, 28). The Sabbath was MADE!

When was it made ? And Who made it ?

John wrote, "In the beginning was the Word (Greek: Logos), and the Word was with God (Greek: Theos, meaning more than one), and the Word was God (TWO members or Theos). "The same was in the beginning with God. "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:1-3)

Did Jesus Christ keep the Sabbath ? The answer is yes. The question is, Do we pick and choose which words of Jesus to believe and which one's to reject ?

Naturally we can, but should we ?

 


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 Message 4 of 13 in Discussion 
From: AprilbornSent: 1/11/2004 10:57 PM
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameTheOldGeek1</NOBR> Sent: 12/18/2003 8:43 PM
cath,
 
it's not the words we have to keep, it's the logic that binds the words into our hearts.
 
The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
 
Let see what we can do with this one.
 
The Religion is made for man, and not man for the Religion.
The Economy is made for man, and not man for the Economy.
The Constitution is made for man, and not man for the Constitution.
The Marriage institution is made for man, and not man for the Marriage institution.
The Country is made for the man, and not man for the Country.
The Globalisation is made for man, and not man for the Globalization.
The Sciences are made for man, and not man for the Sciences.
The Capital is made for man, and not man for the Capital.
The Liberalism is made for man, and not man for the Liberalism.
The Conservatism is made for man, and not man for the Conservatism.

Did Jesus Christ keep the Sabbath ? The answer is yes.

There is the Kingdom of God in which we are all spiritual brothers and sisters. In this Kingdom the time of laboring as nothing to do with the reward we receive. The good and bad seeds are let grown together until they bear fruits and then are separated. Only then there can be a definitive judgement because only good seeds would bear good fruits, there is no preemptive uprooting of bad weeds because a good weed can be uprooted by error.

There is the Kingdom of men where we can make commandments and rules and laws as to make this temporal passage with the least inconveniences for the most of us. Our bodies are frail compare what we can long for. Our minds are very limited compare to the infinities we can conceive. We have to be humble enough to recongnize that our knowledge of what's good and what's best is limited. We can't predict much. Our capacity to express what should be God's will is infinitely smaller than what  is truely God's Will. So when we live by a rule like "You must rest on the Sabbath", even if it is generally a "good thing", we must admit that it is not universaly true and must admit numerous exception then therefore is made for man so cannot be the kind of God's law that say "the sun must shine on the just as the unjust".


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Recommend Delete    Message 17 of 23 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameCatherine-----------</NOBR> Sent: 12/19/2003 3:40 AM

Geek, I agree with some of what you are saying... but for me the Old Covenant God made with Israel, tells a story.

Israel was not chosen because they were better then any other nation, but because of Abraham being faithful to God and trusting in God. Abraham lived in the land of Ur. God called "Abram" out of that land...which he didn’t argue about, but went.

As people created more and more idols/gods for themselves and got further and further away from the one God (God is Spirit and not made out of clay) God chose Abraham to reconcile mankind.

The bible starts with telling the story of Adam and Eve (mankind) who had rejected God ect...now you can say this is all made up for the reason of some nation to have power over another nation and you have got a good point, for religion certainly seems to be used that way, but was it that way with Abraham....? Did "Abraham" have an agenda ? (You could ask...Is Abraham real...?)

People certainly departed quickly from worshipping the one God, for the history of Israel is full of it.

For example....

"And The Lord said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live." So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live." (Numbers 21:4-9 RSV)

Centuries Later, The Bronze Serpent Was Destroyed Because The Israelites Had Turned It Into An Idol

"In the third year of Hoshea son of Elah, king of Israel, Hezekiah the son of Ahaz, king of Judah , began to reign. He was twenty-five years old when he began to reign, and he reigned twenty-nine years in Jerusalem. His mother's name was Abi the daughter of Zechariah."

"And he did what was right in the eyes of The Lord, according to all that David his father had done. He removed the high places, and broke the pillars, and cut down the Asherah. And he broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the people of Israel had burned incense to it; it was called Nehushtan."

"He trusted in The Lord the God of Israel; so that there was none like him among all the kings of Judah after him, nor among those who were before him. For he held fast to The Lord; he did not depart from following Him, but kept the Commandments which The Lord commanded Moses." (2 Kings 18:1-6 RSV)

 

BTW I got the flood article from that site...looks like a good one.

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2003/20030818.htm

 


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 Message 5 of 13 in Discussion 
From: AprilbornSent: 1/11/2004 10:57 PM
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Recommend Delete    Message 18 of 23 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameCatherine-----------</NOBR> Sent: 12/19/2003 10:48 AM

Geek,

There is much proof that the history of Israel has not been a fiction of imagination and that their story had been recorded correctly.

A full copy of the Book of Isaiah was found at Qumran. The Dead Sea scrolls prove that the copyists of biblical manuscripts took great care in making sure that they translated them correctly.

A tunnel was constructed from the spring at Gihon, under the city walls and through the rock to the southern end of the city of Jerusalem, to the pool of Siloam. It is the Aqueduct of Hezekiah (2 Chronicles 32:2-4; 2 Kings 20:20)

Three accounts have been left by the Assyrian monarch-Sennacherib-about his campaign against Israel and Judah. The tell of how he came against the cities of Israel and then Judah, and how he "shut up" Hezekiah in his capital city Jerusalem. But, Sennacherib failed in his campaign (2 Kings 19:35-36). In 1938 archaelogists found a mass grave outside the city of Lachish, which Sennacherib had conquered and which was the base for the Assyrian move to Jerusalem. There found was 2000 skeleton's. There are stone panels on display today in the Lachish Gallery in the British Museum-- depicting the seige of Lachish. Sennacherib was assasinated (2 Kings 19:36-37) and also on display are tablets of this event.

Babylon was prophesied by Jeremiah and Isaiah and Daniel that it would "disappear" (Jeremiah 51:58; Isaiah 45:1-2; Daniel 4:30) It disappeared completely for over 2000 years. The palace ruins were discovered by archaelogists in the 19th century--proving that the Word of God stands!

http://www.angelfire.com/ut/warriorforchrist/page4.html

Only the Creator has the power to be God...anything else that humans have made into "gods" are in fact merely objects created by the Creator.....

The presence of a creation demands the existence of a Creator, and the existence of natural laws require the existence of a Natural Law Maker.


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Recommend Delete    Message 19 of 23 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameCatherine-----------</NOBR> Sent: 12/19/2003 11:19 AM
Geek, you might find the following of interest....
 
Yes, quite a number of Biblical structures have been excavated. Some of the most interesting are the following:



The base of the Tower of Babel in Babylon where language was confused (Genesis 11:1-9).



The theater at Ephesus, Turkey.
Old Testament
New Testament

  • The palace at Jericho where Eglon, king of Moab, was assassinated by Ehud (Judges 3:15-30).

  • The east gate of Shechem where Gaal and Zebul watched the forces of Abimelech approach the city (Judges 9:34-38).

  • The Temple of Baal/El-Berith in Shechem, where funds were obtained to finance Abimelech's kingship and where the citizens of Shechem took refuge when Abimelech attacked the city (Judges 9:4, 46-49).

  • The pool of Gibeon where the forces of David and Ishbosheth fought during the struggle for the kingship of Israel (2 Samuel 2:12-32).

  • The Pool of Heshbon, likened to the eyes of the Shulammite woman (Song of Songs 7:4).

  • The royal palace at Samaria where the kings of Israel lived (1 Kings 20:43; 21:1, 2; 22:39; 2 Kings 1:2; 15:25).

  • The Pool of Samaria where King Ahab's chariot was washed after his death (1 Kings 22:29-38).

  • The water tunnel beneath Jerusalem dug by King Hezekiah to provide water during the Assyrian siege (2 Kings 20:20; 2 Chronicles 32:30).

  • The royal palace in Babylon where King Belshazzar held the feast and Daniel interpreted the handwriting on the wall (Daniel 5).

  • The royal palace in Susa where Esther was queen of the Persian king Xerxes (Esther 1:2; 2:3, 5, 9, 16).

  • The royal gate at Susa where Mordecai, Esther's cousin, sat (Esther 2:19, 21; 3:2, 3; 4:2; 5:9, 13; 6:10, 12).

  • The Square in front of the royal gate at Susa where Mordecai met with Halthach, Xerxes' eunuch (Esther 4:6).

  • The foundation of the synagogue at Capernaum where Jesus cured a man with an unclean spirit (Mark 1:21-28) and delivered the sermon on the bread of life (John 6:25-59).

  • The house of Peter at Capernaum where Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law and others (Matthew 8:14-16).

  • Jacob's well where Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman (John 4).

  • The Pool of Bethesda in Jerusalem, where Jesus healed a crippled man (John 5:1-14).

  • The Pool of Siloam in Jerusalem, where Jesus healed a blind man (John 9:1-4).

  • The tribunal at Corinth where Paul was tried (Acts 18:12-17).

  • The theater at Ephesus where the riot of silversmiths occurred (Acts 19:29). - See picture at top

  • Herod's palace at Caesarea where Paul was kept under guard (Acts 23:33-35).

    [ If this information has been helpful, please prayerfully consider a donation to help pay the expenses for making this faith-building service available to you and your family! Donations are tax-deductible. ]

    Author: Bryant Wood of Associates for Biblical Research

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     Message 6 of 13 in Discussion 
    From: AprilbornSent: 1/11/2004 10:57 PM
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    Recommend Delete    Message 20 of 23 in Discussion 
    From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameTheOldGeek1</NOBR> Sent: 12/19/2003 5:58 PM

    There is much proof that the history of Israel has not been a fiction of imagination and that their story had been recorded correctly.

    A full copy of the Book of Isaiah was found at Qumran. The Dead Sea scrolls prove that the copyists of biblical manuscripts took great care in making sure that they translated them correctly.

    cath,

    there is also much proofs that history has been slightly distorted in the writtings as to make ways for changes in religious/political situation at precise time in israelite history.

    One such religious rewriting of history is the idea that the israelites had a covenant with a monotheist god from Noah to Abraham to Moses to Solomon. In fact many archeological findings do point in the direction that monotheism in judaism was a fact long after Solomon.

    As a result of comparing biblical and inThe Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic
    scriptional evidence with the Ugaritic texts, we can see how the worship of other deities lasted for quite a long time in Israel's pantheon.

    By Mark S. Smith
    Skirball Professor of Bible and Near Eastern Studies
    New York University

    For decades, scholars have tried to penetrate the Bible's story about Israelite monotheism. According to traditional interpretations of the Bible, monotheism was part of Israel's original covenant with Yahweh on Mount Sinai, and the idolatry subsequently criticized by the prophets was due to Israel's backsliding from its own heritage and history with Yahweh. However, scholars have long noted that beneath this presentation lies a number of questions. Why do the Ten Commandments command that there should be no other gods "before Me" (the Lord), if there are no other gods as claimed by other biblical texts? Why should the Israelites sing at the crossing of the Red Sea that "there is no god like You, O Lord?" (Exodus 15:11). Such passages suggest that Israelites knew about other gods and did not simply reject them. It seems that Israelites may have known of other deities and perhaps various passages suggest that behind the Bible's broader picture of monotheism was a spectrum of polytheisms that centered on the worship of Yahweh as the pantheon's greatest figure.

    In the past, the question of Israelite polytheism has been approached by looking for evidence of specific deities worshipped by Israelites in addition to Yahweh. These would include biblical criticisms of the worship of other deities, such as the goddess Asherah in 2 Kings 21 and 23, as well as apparent references to this goddess or at least her symbol in the inscriptions from Kuntillet 'Ajrud and Khirbet el-Qom in the eighth century. In the Kuntillet 'Ajrud inscriptions, the symbol is treated respectfully as part of the worship of Yahweh. The gods Resheph and Deber appear in Habakkuk 3:5 as part of the military retinue of Yahweh. Other deities who gain some mention in the Bible include the "hosts of heaven" criticized in 2 Kings 21:5, but mentioned without such criticism in 1 Kings 22:19 and Zephaniah 1:5. Scholars have also noted that the god El is identified with Yahweh in the Bible, again with no criticism. The criticisms of Yahweh's archenemy, the storm god, Baal, also seem to reflect Israelite worship of this god. While many of these deities are not well known from the Bible, they are described sometimes at considerable length in the Ugaritic texts, discovered first in 1928 at the site of Ras Shamra (located on the coast of Syria about 100 miles north of Beirut). As a result of comparing biblical and inscriptional evidence with the Ugaritic texts, we can see how the worship of other deities lasted for quite a long time in Israel down to the Exile in ca. 586.

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    Recommend Delete    Message 21 of 23 in Discussion 
    From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameTheOldGeek1</NOBR> Sent: 12/19/2003 10:19 PM
    What I'm doubtfull about the movement to find historic proofs of facts in the bible is that the positive findings are put on the mediatized/touristic highlights while the rest are trown back to the dark of specialist's knowledge.
     
    According to Israel's Law of Antiquities, no new construction can proceed without building sites first being checked for archaeological remains. Consequently, construction of settler homes and tourist infrastructure has prompted numerous salvage excavations throughout the valley. Some of the finds from these digs have been quite dramatic, and one such discovery in the summer of 1998 aroused particular public interest. Archaeologist Ronny Reich and his team discovered a massive city wall roughly dated to 1500 B.C.E., 500 years before David is held to have taken his city. The notion that a large scale urban center pre-existed David and Solomon seemed at first to be a scandalous suggestion. The subject dominated the Friday evening news, as archaeologist Reich was engulfed in a sea of international press, ever eager for controversy.

    After Reich and others quelled national concerns, insisting that the discovery in no way contradicts the Biblical narrative, the hullabaloo quickly subsided. I visited Reich later that week at the Gihon spring, where the expansion of a settler home along with a new tourist center parking lot has prompted continual archaeological investigation. When asked about the impact of settlers on archaeology in the village, Reich lamented their destructive presence while recognizing that his own reputation will be built on these recent discoveries. Anyway, the days of nationalist Israeli archaeology are over, he informed me, concluding that scientific method has all but subsumed earlier biases.

    Many in the discipline have noted a new breed of Israeli archaeologists distancing themselves from Biblical and Zionist historical narrative, echoing the reversals of the New Historians in their asking of new questions to fill out the gaps in the patchy Israeli historiography. Nadia Abu al-Haj has suggested that this new pluralism might be read for its "otherizing" effect, as the artifacts of "foreign" cultures are more prominently displayed, although often as outside influences enriching the Israeli national fabric.[6]

    Many Israeli archaeologists I spoke with who have worked in the village openly express their dislike of the settlers, taking care to note their warm relations with local Arabs. One senior digger did admit that he would like nothing more than to bulldoze the whole hill, thus preserving Jerusalem's archaeological tel for scientific study. As many local Palestinian residents will tell you, the bulldozers do come, but usually to demolish unlicensed homes. Archaeologists like Ronny Reich would prefer to steer clear of demolitions, settlers, and Tourist Ministry officials alike, proclaiming an objective distance from such ideological conflicts. This professed neutrality, however, ignores the role of archaeology in the service of tourist development, which in the case of Silwan is transforming a living village into a place called "The City of David." The antiquities produced through archaeological research in Silwan are being arranged to narrate the much contested Biblical story of David conquering the Jebusite City. Beyond re-inscribing the village with this new symbolic meaning as "Jewish space," the practice of archaeology is physically reshaping the village, having in several cases paved the legal path for Jewish settlement expansion.

    Far across town in his Talbiye home, the architect contracted to design the park revealed to me that the City of David is but a piece of a much larger plan. He unrolled a map of the Old City and its environs, and my eyes tried to take in the hundreds of dots plotted across nine or so neighborhoods. Each dot represents a historic site, he explained, to be incorporated into a large open-air museum stretching south from the citadel, around Mt. Zion and Silwan, north through the Kidron Valley, and up to the Rockefeller Museum. Each area will be designed to represent different historical periods, and I was not surprised to hear that Silwan will serve as the First Temple Period.

    I hope that these few angles on Silwan suggest the intricate spectrum of historical narratives projected onto this village. I argue that despite this multifarious legacy, it is the Biblical story of the City of David which Silwan is being shaped to represent. This historical landscaping takes place through the excavation and selective display of archaeological remains. We must pay particular attention to places like Silwan where historical narrative and archaeological practice operate on the front lines of an ongoing struggle. Given the austere political landscape in which Israeli land confiscations and house demolitions consume Palestinian space on a daily basis, it is important for us to be sensitive to other ways in which these erasures occur. The use of archaeological sites to reshape the land into historical landscapes assists Israel in its co-optation of places like Silwan in ways that bulldozers never could.

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    From: AprilbornSent: 1/11/2004 10:57 PM
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    From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameCatherine-----------</NOBR> Sent: 12/20/2003 12:29 PM
    Geek, this might proof to be good reading material, I only read a bit myself, so i can't give you my conclusion on it yet.....
     

    LEGENDS OF BABYLON AND EGYPT IN RELATION TO HEBREW TRADITION BY LEONARD W. KING, M.A., LITT.D., F.S.A. Assistant Keeper of Egyptian and Assyrian Antiquities in the British Museum Professor in the University of London King's College THE SCHWEICH LECTURES 1916

    In these lectures an attempt is made, not so much to restate familiar facts, as to accommodate them to new and supplementary evidence which has been published in America since the outbreak of the war. But even without the excuse of recent discovery, no apology would be needed for any comparison or contrast of Hebrew tradition with the mythological and legendary beliefs of Babylon and Egypt. Hebrew achievements in the sphere of religion and ethics are only thrown into stronger relief when studied against their contemporary background.

    But the people with whose traditions we are ultimately concerned are the Hebrews. In the first series of Schweich Lectures, delivered in the year 1908, the late Canon Driver showed how the literature of Assyria and Babylon had thrown light upon Hebrew traditions concerning the origin and early history of the world. The majority of the cuneiform documents, on which he based his comparison, date from a period no earlier than the seventh century B.C., and yet it was clear that the texts themselves, in some form or other, must have descended from a remote antiquity. He concluded his brief reference to the Creation and Deluge Tablets with these words: "The Babylonian narratives are both polytheistic, while the corresponding biblical narratives (Gen. i and vi-xi) are made the vehicle of a pure and exalted monotheism; but in spite of this fundamental difference, and also variations in detail, the resemblances are such as to leave no doubt that the Hebrew cosmogony and the Hebrew story of the Deluge are both derived ultimately from the same original as the Babylonian narratives, only transformed by the magic touch of Israel's religion, and infused by it with a new spirit."[1] Among the recently published documents from Nippur we have at last recovered one at least of those primitive originals from which the Babylonian accounts were derived, while others prove the existence of variant stories of the world's origin and early history which have not survived in the later cuneiform texts. In some of these early Sumerian records we may trace a faint but remarkable parallel with the Hebrew traditions of man's history between his Creation and the Flood. It will be our task, then, to examine the relations which the Hebrew narratives bear both to the early Sumerian and to the later Babylonian Versions, and to ascertain how far the new discoveries support or modify current views with regard to the contents of those early chapters of Genesis. ..........

    Four centuries of complete silence lie between its close and the
    beginning of Exodus, where we enter on the history of a nation as
    contrasted with that of a family.[1] While Exodus and the succeeding
    books contain national traditions, Genesis is largely made up of
    individual biography. Chapters xii-l are concerned with the immediate
    ancestors of the Hebrew race, beginning with Abram's migration into
    Canaan
    and closing with Joseph's death in Egypt. But the aim of the
    book is not confined to recounting the ancestry of Israel. It seeks
    also to show her relation to other peoples in the world, and probing
    still deeper into the past it describes how the earth itself was
    prepared for man's habitation. Thus the patriarchal biographies are
    preceded, in chapters i-xi, by an account of the original of the
    world, the beginnings of civilization, and the distribution of the
    various races of mankind. It is, of course, with certain parts of this
    first group of chapters that such striking parallels have long been
    recognized in the cuneiform texts........

    It must be admitted that both Egypt and Babylon bear a bad name in
    Hebrew tradition. Both are synonymous with captivity, the symbols of
    suffering endured at the beginning and at the close of the national
    life. And during the struggle against Assyrian aggression, the
    disappointment at the failure of expected help is reflected in
    prophecies of the period. These great crises in Hebrew history have
    tended to obscure in the national memory the part which both Babylon
    and Egypt may have played in moulding the civilization of the smaller
    nations with whom they came in contact. To such influence the races of
    Syria were, by geographical position, peculiarly subject. The country
    has often been compared to a bridge between the two great continents
    of Asia and Africa, flanked by the sea on one side and the desert on
    the other, a narrow causeway of highland and coastal plain connecting
    the valleys of the Nile and the Euphrates.[1] .........

    <!--StartFragment-->The great trunk-roads of through communication run north and south,
    across the eastern plateaus of the Haurân and Moab, and along the
    coastal plains. The old highway from Egypt, which left the Delta at
    Pelusium, at first follows the coast, then trends eastward across the
    plain of Esdraelon, which breaks the coastal range, and passing under
    Hermon runs northward through Damascus and reaches the Euphrates at
    its most westerly point. Other through tracks in Palestine ran then as
    they do to-day, by Beesheba and Hebron, or along the `Arabah and west
    of the Dead Sea, or through Edom and east of Jordan by the present
    Hajj route to Damascus. But the great highway from Egypt, the most
    westerly of the trunk-roads through Palestine, was that mainly
    followed, with some variant sections, by both caravans and armies, and
    was known by the Hebrews in its southern course as the "Way of the
    Philistines" and farther north as the "Way of the East"...........

    During the second period, that of the settlement in Canaan, the
    Hebrews came into contact with a people who had used the Babylonian
    language as the common medium of communication throughout the Near
    East. It is an interesting fact that among the numerous letters found
    at Tell el-Amarna were two texts of quite a different character. These
    were legends, both in the form of school exercises, which had been
    written out for practice in the Babylonian tongue. One of them was the
    legend of Adapa, in which we noted just now a distant resemblance to
    the Hebrew story of Paradise. It seems to me we are here standing on
    rather firmer ground; and provisionally we might place the beginning
    of our process after the time of Hebrew contact with the Canaanites.

    Under the earlier Hebrew monarchy there was no fresh influx of
    Babylonian culture into Palestine. That does not occur till our last
    main period, the later Judaean monarchy, when, in consequence of the
    westward advance of Assyria, the civilization of Babylon was once more
    carried among the petty Syrian states. Israel was first drawn into the
    circle of Assyrian influence, when Arab fought as the ally of Benhadad
    of Damascus at the battle of Karkar in 854 B.C.; and from that date
    onward the nation was menaced by the invading power. In 734 B.C., at
    the invitation of Ahaz of Judah, Tiglath-Pileser IV definitely
    intervened in the affairs of Israel. For Ahaz purchased his help
    against the allied armies of Israel and Syria in the Syro-Ephraimitish
    war. Tiglath-pileser threw his forces against Damascus and Israel, and
    Ahaz became his vassal.[1] To this period, when Ahaz, like Panammu II,
    "ran at the wheel of his lord, the king of Assyria", we may ascribe
    the first marked invasion of Assyrian influence over Judah. Traces of
    it may be seen in the altar which Ahaz caused to be erected in
    Jerusalem after the pattern of the Assyrian altar at Damascus.[2] We
    saw in the first lecture, in the monuments we have recovered of
    Panammu I and of Bar-rekub, how the life of another small Syrian state
    was inevitably changed and thrown into new channels by the presence of
    Tiglath-pileser and his armies in the West.



    http://www.gutenberg.net/etext00/beheb10.txt

     

     


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    From: <NOBR>MSN NicknameTheOldGeek1</NOBR> Sent: 12/20/2003 11:35 PM
    it is lenghty. will try to rad it all. plutocracy is in unexpalined. moved it all tonite.

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