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Esoteric Spirit : NY Times: Suffering, evil and the existence of God
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From: MSN NicknameChrismac682  (Original Message)Sent: 11/5/2007 1:13 PM
November 4, 2007,  10:25 pm

Suffering, Evil and the Existence of God

In Book 10 of Milton’s “Paradise Lost,�?Adam asks the question so many of his descendants have asked: why should the lives of billions be blighted because of a sin he, not they, committed? (“Ah, why should all mankind / For one man’s fault�?be condemned?�? He answers himself immediately: “But from me what can proceed, / But all corrupt, both Mind and Will depraved?�?Adam’s Original Sin is like an inherited virus. Although those who are born with it are technically innocent of the crime �?they did not eat of the forbidden tree �?its effects rage in their blood and disorder their actions.

God, of course, could have restored them to spiritual health, but instead, Paul tells us in Romans, he “gave them over�?to their “reprobate minds�?and to the urging of their depraved wills. Because they are naturally “filled with all unrighteousness,�?unrighteous deeds are what they will perform: “fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness . . . envy, murder . . . deceit, malignity.�?“There is none righteous,�?Paul declares, “no, not one.�?

It follows, then (at least from these assumptions), that the presence of evil in the world cannot be traced back to God, who opened up the possibility of its emergence by granting his creatures free will but is not responsible for what they, in the person of their progenitor Adam, freely chose to do.

What Milton and Paul offer (not as collaborators of course, but as participants in the same tradition) is a solution to the central problem of theodicy �?the existence of suffering and evil in a world presided over by an all powerful and benevolent deity. The occurrence of catastrophes natural (hurricanes, droughts, disease) and unnatural (the Holocaust ) always revives the problem and provokes anguished discussion of it. The conviction, held by some, that the problem is intractable leads to the conclusion that there is no God, a conclusion reached gleefully by the authors of books like “The God Delusion,�?“God Is Not Great�?and “The End of Faith.�?(See discussion here, here and here.)

Now two new books (to be published in the coming months) renew the debate. Their authors come from opposite directions �?one from theism to agnosticism, the other from atheism to theism �?but they meet, or rather cross paths, on the subject of suffering and evil.

Bart D. Ehrman is a professor of religious studies and his book is titled “God’s Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question �?Why We Suffer.�?A graduate of Princeton Theological Seminary, Ehrman trained to be a scholar of New Testament Studies and a minister. Born-again as a teenager, devoted to the scriptures (he memorized entire books of the New Testament), strenuously devout, he nevertheless lost his faith because, he reports, “I could no longer reconcile the claims of faith with the fact of life . . . I came to the point where I simply could not believe that there is a good and kindly disposed Ruler who is in charge.�?“The problem of suffering,�?he recalls, “became for me the problem of faith.�?/P>

Much of the book is taken up with Ehrman’s examination of biblical passages that once gave him solace, but that now deliver only unanswerable questions: “Given [the] theology of selection �?that God had chosen the people of Israel to be in a special relationship with him �?what were Ancient Israelite thinkers to suppose when things did not go as planned or expected? . . . . How were they to explain the fact that the people of God suffered from famine, drought, and pestilence?�?

Ehrman knows and surveys the standard answers to these questions �?God is angry at a sinful, disobedient people; suffering is redemptive, as Christ demonstrated on the cross; evil and suffering exist so that God can make good out of them; suffering induces humility and is an antidote to pride; suffering is a test of faith �?but he finds them unpersuasive and as horrible in their way as the events they fail to explain: “If God tortures, maims and murders people just to see how they will react �?to see if they will not blame him, when in fact he is to blame �?then this does not seem to me to be a God worthy of worship.�?

And as for the argument (derived from God’s speech out of the whirlwind in the Book of Job) that God exists on a level far beyond the comprehension of those who complain about his ways, “Doesn’t this view mean that God can maim, torment, and murder at will and not be held accountable? . . . . Does might make right?�?/P>

These questions are as old as Epicurus, who gave them canonical form: “Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence, then, evil.�?

Many books of theology and philosophy have been written in response to Epicurus’s conundrums, but Ehrman’s isn’t one of them. What impels him is not the fascination of intellectual puzzles, but the anguish produced by what he sees when he opens his eyes. “If he could do miracles for his people throughout the Bible, where is he today when your son is killed in a car accident, or your husband gets multiple sclerosis? . . . I just don’t see anything redemptive when Ethiopian babies die of malnutrition.�?

The horror of the pain and suffering he instances leads Ehrman to be scornful of those who respond to it with cool abstract analyses: “What I find morally repugnant about such books is that they are so far removed from the actual pain and suffering that takes place in our world.�?/P>

He might have been talking about Antony Flew’s “There Is a God: How the World’s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind.�?/A> Flew, a noted professor of philosophy, announced in 2004 that after decades of writing essays and books from the vantage point of atheism, he now believes in God. “Changed his mind�?is not a casual formulation. Flew wouldn’t call what has happened to him a conversion, for that would suggest something unavailable to analysis. His journey, he tells us, is best viewed as “a pilgrimage of reason,�?an extension of his life-long habit of “following the argument no matter where it leads.�?/P>

Where it led when he was a schoolboy was to the same place Ehrman arrived at after many years of devout Christian practice: “I was regularly arguing with fellow sixth formers that the idea of a God who is both omnipotent and perfectly good is incompatible with the manifest evils and imperfections of the world.�?For much of his philosophical career, Flew continued the argument in debates with a distinguished list of philosophers, scientists, theologians and historians. And then, gradually and to his own great surprise, he found that his decades-long “exploration of the Divine ha[d] after all these years turned from denial to discovery.�?/P>

What exactly did he discover? That by interrogating atheism with the same rigor he had directed at theism, he could begin to shake the foundations of that dogmatism. He poses to his former fellow atheists the following question: “What would have to occur or have occurred to constitute for you a reason to at least consider the existence of a superior Mind.�?He knows that a cornerstone of the atheist creed is an argument that he himself made many times �?the sufficiency of the materialist natural world as an explanation of how things work. “I pointed out,�?he recalls, that “even the most complex entities in the universe �?human beings �?are the products of unconscious physical and mechanical forces.�?/P>

But it is precisely the word “unconscious�?that, in the end, sends Flew in another direction. How, he asks, do merely physical and mechanical forces �?forces without mind, without consciousness �?give rise to the world of purposes, thoughts and moral projects? “How can a universe of mindless matter produce beings with intrinsic ends [and] self-replication capabilities?�?In short (this is the title of a chapter), “How Did Life Go Live?�?

Flew does not deny the explanatory power of materialist thought when the question is how are we to understand the physical causes of this or that event or effect. He’s is just contending that what is explained by materialist thought �?the intricate workings of nature �?itself demands an explanation, and materialist thought cannot supply it. Scientists, he says, “are dealing with the interaction of chemicals, whereas our questions have to do with how something can be intrinsically purpose-driven and how matter can be managed by symbol processing?�?These queries, Flew insists, exist on entirely different levels and the knowledge gained from the first can not be used to illuminate the second.

In an appendix to the book, Abraham Varghese makes Flew’s point with the aid of an everyday example: “To suggest that the computer ‘understands�?what it is doing is like saying that a power line can meditate on the question of free will and determinism or that the chemicals in a test tube can apply the principle of non-contradiction in solving a problem, or that a DVD player understands and enjoys the music it plays.�?

How did purposive behavior of the kind we engage in all the time �?understanding, meditating, enjoying without �?ever emerge from electrons and chemical elements?

The usual origin-of-life theories, Flew observes, are caught in an infinite regress that can only be stopped by an arbitrary statement of the kind he himself used to make: �?. . . our knowledge of the universe must stop with the big bang, which is to be seen as the ultimate fact.�?Or, “The laws of physics are ‘lawless laws�?that arise from the void �?end of discussion.�?He is now persuaded that such pronouncements beg the crucial question �?why is there something rather than nothing? �?a question to which he replies with the very proposition he argued against for most of his life: “The only satisfactory explanation for the origin of such ‘end-directed, self-replicating�?life as we see on earth is an infinitely intelligent Mind.�?

Will Ehrman be moved to reconsider his present position and reconvert if he reads Flew’s book? Not likely, because Flew remains throughout in the intellectual posture Ehrman finds so arid. Flew assures his readers that he “has had no connection with any of the revealed religions,�?and no “personal experience of God or any experience that may be called supernatural or religious.�?Nor does he tells us in this book of any experience of the pain and suffering that haunts Ehrman’s every sentence.

Where Ehrman begins and ends with the problem of evil, Flew only says that it is a question that “must be faced,�?but he is not going to face it in this book because he has been concerned with the prior “question of God’s existence.�?Answering that question affirmatively leaves the other still open (one could always sever the Godly attributes of power and benevolence, and argue that the absence of the second does not tell against the reality of the first).

Flew is for the moment satisfied with the intellectual progress he has been able to make. Ehrman is satisfied with nothing, and the passion and indignation he feels at the manifest inequities of the world are not diminished in the slightest when he writes his last word.

Is there a conclusion to be drawn from these two books, at once so similar in their concerns and so different in their ways of addressing them? Does one or the other persuade?

Perhaps an individual reader of either will have his or her mind changed, but their chief value is that together they testify to the continuing vitality and significance of their shared subject. Both are serious inquiries into matters that have been discussed and debated by sincere and learned persons for many centuries. The project is an old one, but these authors pursue it with an energy and goodwill that invite further conversation with sympathetic and unsympathetic readers alike.

In short, these books neither trivialize their subject nor demonize those who have a different view of it, which is more than can be said for the efforts of those fashionable atheist writers whose major form of argument would seem to be ridicule.

(In an article published Sunday �?November 4 �?in the New York Times Magazine, Mark Oppenheimer more than suggests that Flew, now in his 80’s, did not write the book that bears his name, but allowed Roy Varghese (listed as co-editor) to compile it from the philosopher’s previous writings and some extended conversations. Whatever the truth is about the authorship of the book, the relation of its argument and trajectory to the argument and trajectory of Ehrman’s book stands.)

2007 New York Times



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 Message 2 of 10 in Discussion 
From: moklemokeSent: 11/5/2007 1:31 PM
AS A SCIENTIST I HAVE BEEN ASKED IN THE PAST THIS QUESTION OF WHY IF MY ANCESTOR ADAM SINNED I AM THEN AND HIS AND MY DESCENDANTS LIABLE FOR HIS SINS.  WELL ACTUALLY I UNDERSTAND EVEN USING GENETICS. ONCE ADAM SINNED HE WAS CHANGED FOREVER FROM BEING PERFECT TO BEING IMPERFECT.  IF ONE UNDERSTANDS BASIC GENE THERAPY ONE UNDERSTANDS THAT IMPERFECT GENES WILL PROPOGATE THE SAME IMPERFECTION EVERY TIME IT REPRODUCES ITSELF.  THAT IS THE HOPE OF MANY GENE SCIENTIST. GETTING IMPERFECT GENES AND TRYING TO ISOLATE THEN DESTROY THE IMPERFECT GENE AND REPRODUCING WITHOUT THAT GENE.  TROUBLE IS IT DOS NOT WORK.  THAT GENE CAN SOMETIMES NOT BE IN THE NEXT SUBJECT BUT FOR SOME REASON APPEARS IN THE NEXT TWO OR THREE PROGINY.  INTERESTING HOW SOME GENE IMPERFECTIONS SEEM TO JUMP A COUPLE OF GENERATIONS THEN SUDDENLY REAPPEAR.
 
MICHAEL

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 Message 3 of 10 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamemarkwdcSent: 11/5/2007 5:46 PM
If there is a God . . . and . . . If God is perfect . . . and . . . If God
is all-knowing (including foreseeing the future . . . which means that God
knew Adam and Eve would “sin.�? . . . How could God have created flawed
human beings and then threaten them with "eternal damnation" in Hell if they
didn't get it "exactly right"?

Those are the questions that plagued me for years from the time I was old
enough to reason.

At some point a number of years ago, I came to believe that the flaw was not
in "God" or the "Higher Power" or whatever name one might choose to identify
the Greater Force that "runs the universe".

I realized the flaw was in many of the man-made descriptions and
understandings of "God."

The idea that the Bible is "divinely inspired" is often distorted to imply
that it was "divinely dictated" on a word-for-word basis . . . "from God's
lips to the writers' ears" . . . which I do not find credible.

Even less plausible is the fantasy that God's precise meaning survived all
the translations and transcriptions by fallible human beings over two
thousand years . . . especially when many versions of the Bible disagree
with each other on substantive points.

I believe that the Bible is man's best attempt to write about God based upon
some pure and some manipulative efforts to ascertain "what God is" and "what
God wants".

That same Bible also teaches that "God" is beyond the ability of humankind
to visualize or comprehend.

So, in the end, I see the notions of "religious fundamentalists" of many
ilks that they absolutely know and can tell the world precisely what God
"demands" to be naive at best and highly arrogant at worst.

In either case, such belief is grossly mistaken and leads to divisive
attitudes that are at odds with the best purposes of spirituality.

There is much to be gained from the Bible and other religious texts which
have a tremendous amount in common philosophically. Nit-picking over the
“myth of textual perfection�?seems a waste of time that would be better
devoted to unified efforts to address and resolve massive problems facing
humanity.

Mark



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 Message 4 of 10 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamemarkwdcSent: 11/5/2007 7:41 PM
QUOTATION FROM POSTED ARTICLE:

"In short, these books neither trivialize their subject nor demonize those
who have a different view of it, which is more than can be said for the
efforts of those fashionable atheist writers whose major form of argument
would seem to be ridicule."


COMMNT IN RESPONSE:

Christopher Hitchens, author of "God is not Great: How Religion Poisons
Everything" (published in the United Kingdom as "God is Not Great: The Case
Against Religion") strikes me as the epitome of "fashionable atheist writers
whose major form of argument would seem to be ridicule."

I would not deny him his right to choose his personal "truth."

I support his views that religious extremism and intolerance are a
destructive force that has no place in a decent society, domestic or global.

What I cannot accept is his complete inability or unwillingness to see any
modest form of personal spirituality as acceptable or beneficial to the
individual or the community.

He seems to be possessed by a mean-spirited need to mock and devalue any
form of spirituality.

That strikes me as a likely sign of a personal issue that he has not
addressed.

Mark



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 Message 5 of 10 in Discussion 
From: moklemokeSent: 11/5/2007 8:57 PM
THE BIBLE STATES THAT GOD CREATED MAN IN HIS IMAGE TO BE IN FELLOWSHIP WITH HIM AND EACH OTHER.  IF HE CREATED US IN THE IMAGE OF ANIMALS THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO CHOICES WITHIN US.  MUCH OF THE BIBLE TALKS ABOUT CHOICES.  RIGHT CHOICES WRONG CHOICES. OVER AND OVER WE SEEM TO BLAME GOD FOR WHAT HAPPENS TO US AND THE FACT IF HE WAS THERE AND A LOVING GOD HE WOULD NOT LET BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO US.  MANY BAD THINGS HAVE HAPPENED TO ME IN MY LIFE BUT THINKING BACK THOSE THINGS ARE USUALLY THE RESULT OF MINE OR OTHER PEOPLES CHOICES.  MY RAPE AS A CHILD WASNT MY CHOICE IT WAS THE CHOICE OF THE MEN THAT RAPED ME.  MY PARENTS CHOOSING TO DEAL WITH MY SITUATION BY PRETENDING IT NEVER HAPPENED WASNT MY CHOICE IT WAS THERES.  THE FACT I RECOVERED FROM IT AND LEAD A PRETTY GOOD LIFE WAS MY CHOICE IN DISCOVERING A WONDERFUL BEING CALLED GOD WHO IS RESPONSIBLE IN A LARGE PART TO MY WELLBEING AND ABILITY TO LOVE THE WORLD AND MY FELLOW MAN AND FORGIVE THOSE WHO HAVE HURT ME BY THERE CHOICES.
 
MICHAEL

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 Message 6 of 10 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameChrismac682Sent: 11/5/2007 9:23 PM
I guess I shouldn't be surprised, although I am, that this post would generate a comment or two. Both Michael and Mark referenced what, for me, has always been the most divisive concept in 12-Step philosophy: the difference between religion and spirituality. Federal courts have found 12-Step programs to have some component of religion, thereby calling into question lower court orders that defendants participate in them. Historically, though, 12-Step programs have claimed spritual over religious philosophy. Here is my "doctrine:" religious influence is that as dictated by "leaders" of whatever denomination, some of which advance doctrines of social inclusion and common welfare and others, like the Rev. Phelps and late Dr. Falwell, social EX-clusion and condemnation based on their self-annointed "roles" of promoting THEIR interpretation of the Gospel. Spirituality, however, is one individual's private set of values, not necessarily based in religion. My own "spirituality" is one of hoping by word and deed that I am a worthwhile person to someone else, that I believe in the sanctity of common unity rather than condemnation of those who don't believe as I do, being non-judgmental and a respect of the responsibility to my own free-will choices. As such, my recovery is rooted in the fact that I have a choice but that I must decide if I do or do not want to be responsible to the consequences of those free-will choices. I DO believe in God or, if you prefer, a Higher Power, and I believe His most just gift He to us all if that of free will. The choices I make with that gift figure into my final destiny.
Be well!

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 Message 7 of 10 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknameBrandflake301Sent: 11/6/2007 2:02 AM
 that of free will.
 
There is a unique philosophy that will equally present and justify any arguement regarding belief systems depending on what your personal beliefs are.
 
Atheism has outer fanaticism, just as christians have and yes have met many pagans that live to cause constant upset. 
 
Christianity is just as broad spectrum as Paganism is.  In ancient times, many pagan religions were based in blood sacrifice however just as many were nature based.  Followers of Zeus pushed their religion onto their neighbors just as many christian religions have.  Atheists have not met a majority, but if they do, look out.
 
The problem is the majority.  Once a spiritual tribe gains economic power, it changes, and most often for the worst.  It becomes offensive and brutal and therefore many of the followers follow suit.
 
I am deeply rooted in "peaceful" paganism and "white magick".  I am just as much of a devout "Pagan" as someone else may be peacefully "Christian".  The fundamental differences are few.  While a peaceful christian may worship one God, I worship many.  The "Peace" mindset is the same.
 
12-step fellowship has helped countless addicts however it is a spiritual program and though the literature may place emphasis on a "Higher Power", we see that many fellowships make assumptions that a "Higher Power" is in the form of christianity, adopting much of the "proselytizing" agendas that major Christian institutions push.  I cannot and will not accept this behavior and as much as 12-step has helped me I've done exactly what the literature has instructed me to do.  I've taken what I needed and left the rest.
 
When the spiritually inclined and the philosophically wise refutes objectivity and the ability to think and feel, they hide behind subjective literature which was only intended as a guiding tool.
 
Brandon
 

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 Message 9 of 10 in Discussion 
From: MSN NicknamemarkwdcSent: 11/6/2007 2:51 AM
Replaces Message #8
 
I do not see how any religion or spiritual group can ever hope to achieve a true majority in global or even national terms.
 
Certainly, the big name-brand religious corporations (sometimes called denominations) get power-drunk and try to bully society.
 
The really frightening behavior that poses a likely threat to social acceptance and stability for all comes from the teachings of BOTH Christianity and Islam that assert that each has discovered the “one truth�?that compels “true believers�?to proselytize . . . and fight "evil."
 
Today, what was once a drive to “save souls�?has been ramped up and perverted into a manic compulsion to “save society�?and seems to include the absurd notion that with enough work it would be possible to create “heaven on earth.�?BR> 
For the overly-zealous "true believers," the love, compassion and humility that were one a prominent focus of these religions have been put into moth balls or discarded in favor or rigid militant assaults.
 
The result is the horrific religious extremism that propels both the Neo-Cons and Al-Qaeda.
 
What we are nearing strikes me as closer to “hell on earth�?for too much of humanity.
 
Mark

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 Message 10 of 10 in Discussion 
From: moklemokeSent: 11/7/2007 3:32 AM
TROUBLE WITH ALL FAITHS INCLUDING ISLAM IS THAT THEY PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT THEY WANT TO BELEIVE AND WHAT THEY WANT TO EXPAND ON AND WHAT THEY WANT TO ENFORCE. CHRIST SAID IN PHILLPS GOSPEL THAT THE TWO MOST IMPORTANT PARTS OF THE BIBLE (THE FIRST TWO COMMANDMENTS) LOVE YOUR GOD AND TREAT YOUR FELLOW MAN AS YOU WANT OR EXPECT TO BE TREATED.  CHRIST SAID THERE IS NO FAITH WITHOUT THESE TWO PASSAGES BEING AT THE FOREFRONT OF YOUR FAITH.
 
MICHAEL

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