RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW Police Exhibit No IM25A
Person Interviewed: David PAYNE Number of Pages 35
Place of Interview: Force Headquarters, Enderby Signature of Interviewing
Date of Interview: 11.04.08 Officer producing exhibit
Time Commenced: 1530 hours
Time Concluded: 1640 hours Duration of Interview: 70 minutes
Interviewing Officer(s) DC 1485 MESSIAH Tape Reference nos:
Other Persons Present None

Tape counter times Person speaking Text




00:00:05 1485 "Okay the video’s now recording again. We’re in a third interview with yourself. We’re at Force Headquarters Police in Leicestershire. I am DC Ivor MESSIAH from Leicestershire Police Major Crime Team and the date is Friday the eleventh of April and the time I make by my watch is fifteen thirty exactly. Could you just tell me who you are please?�?BR>Reply "I’m David PAYNE.�?BR>1485 "Okay. I’m just continuing in relation to you being a witness to, or, in regards to the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine MCCANN, alright, and this is the third interview we’re conducting.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "Hopefully it should be the last. Once again a series of questions, a lot of open questions, take your time in answering and give me as thorough answer as possible.�?BR>Reply "Okay.�?BR>1485 "Right, I just, before I move on I just need to refer back to the last interview just to clarify a couple of points.�?BR>Reply "Okay.�?BR>00:01:05 1485 "One of the points is, do you recall you told me that when Kate had come back to the Tapas and said…�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "What had happened.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "You’d said that, you referred to some sort of, her face, you said the look on her face…�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "Was, can you remember what you said?�?BR>Reply "Err, how did I describe, I mean just you know the, it was just a haunting face of someone who’s you know discovered what she discovered.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "It was just, you know, if you meet Kate now, you know, you can see it, you can just see it in her eyes still. Err, I mean, the only other way to put it, you know, there’s something missing from her life.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "But it was just, you know, the grief and the horror in that face, you know.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "It was just err I’ll just never forget it.�?
1485 "Yeah. But there was a specific, I mean I’ll, I can probably look at the video at a later stage.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "And I just wonder whether you can remember what you said? It was quite impactive what you said.�?BR>00:02:16 Reply "Err, sorry.�?BR>1485 "No? That’s okay. Can you recall shortly after that she went running off to the apartment block and she was saying they’ve taken her?�?BR>Reply "Mm.�?BR>1485 "Is that what you said?�?BR>Reply "Mm, yes.�?BR>1485 "She’s taken, they’ve taken her?�?BR>Reply "She, you know, obviously there’s what we’ve talked about when, you know, it’s portrayed in the press about what she said, they’ve taken her, and that was definitely not, and that was, you know, or unanimous across everyone we’d all said that was not what she first of all said, you know, she’s gone was you know the first words that she said.�?BR>1485 "She first said that she’s gone?�?BR>Reply "She’s gone.�?BR>1485 "And then the second time she said?�?BR>Reply "And then, I mean, and then as we were walking up, err and there’s you know the exchange of conversation was you know, was they’ve taken her.�?BR>1485 "Okay. Moving on a little bit to Gerry and Kate, because they like, because you know they’re into tennis aren’t they?�?BR>Reply "They are.�?BR>1485 "They seem to be playing tennis every day.�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "Virtually. Do you know whether they took their own tennis kit out?�?BR>00:03:23 Reply "Err no they didn’t.�?BR>1485 "They didn’t take the kit out?�?BR>Reply "No.�?BR>1485 "But when I said…�?BR>Reply "Oh sorry when you say the tennis kit…�?BR>1485 "When I say kit.�?BR>Reply "I’m talking about the, err racquet and b*lls they didn’t take.�?BR>1485 "Kit in, you know, kit in general is gonna mean the attire and…�?BR>Reply "Err, did they have any specific tennis gear? You know (inaudible) I don’t, I, I don’t recall that they had anything specific you know to play, you know, we all have what we ha, call tennis gear you know, not the stuff that you probably go swimming in and you know…�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "Which was appropriate to wear on a tennis court but they weren’t err you know they weren’t water goers, you know they weren’t interested in the water sports side of things.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "So you know they knew there was the tennis side of it and they’d gone along with the interest of playing, you know, some more tennis.�?BR>1485 "So generally what would they wear to play tennis as far as you can recollect?�?BR>Reply "Err I’ve got the pictures, err, err yeah again, sorry I can’t remember.�?BR>1485 "Well would it be fair to say it would be t-shirts?�?BR>Reply "Oh yes, yeah.�?BR>1485 "Colours?�?BR>Reply "Err I mean again I think Gerry had a white, a white top err I think he had a, you know, like a polo shirt.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>00:04:36 Reply "Err sleeveless, err I, I keep thinking he’s got white trousers err shorts sorry, but I can’t remember.�?BR>1485 "What about a kit bag? Would they have a kit bag with them?�?BR>Reply "Err he certainly didn’t have a great big tennis bag or a, you know, err I mean I used to be a squash, a semi-professional squash player and you know they certainly didn’t have anything that I would call a kit bag from days when I played…�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "You know, a lot of sport, err if they had a rucksack with some water in that would be, you know, about as big as it got, you know a small rucksack. But it certainly wasn’t a big tennis, you know, things that you could put a tennis racquet in.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "There was nothing of that size that you could hide a, a tennis racquet in or anything like that, it would have been just purely, if they had anything…�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "It would have been something that had their water in.�?BR>1485 "So as opposed to a bag it’d be something like a rucksack, if at all?�?BR>Reply "If, if at all, yeah.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "Yeah.�?BR>1485 "And is that the same for Kate?�?BR>Reply "Yeah, yeah.�?BR>00:05:37 1485 "You mentioned early on, on the last interview as well, about a photo. You spoke brief about a photo you’d shown, you’d shown a photo.�?BR>Reply "Oh yes, I mean…�?BR>1485 "Where did that come from?�?BR>Reply "Err where did the photo come from? That’s a very good question, err I’m not sure whether it was from Gerry’s digital camera or one of the digital cameras that we had there from my recollection. Err but you know, it was, sorry I can’t, I can’t remember exactly. I seem to remember it was one of the digital cameras but that’s about as far as it...�?BR>1485 "Can you remember the pose in which Madeleine was on the photo?�?BR>Reply "Err I can’t, no.�?BR>1485 "Did you see the photo?�?BR>Reply "Err I did, yes. I mean Russell err was probably the most instrumental in that side that we, you know he’s very good with computers and setting that side up, so he specifically went off err you know to do that. Err you know, I mean we kind of identified early like you know I have, I have seen the picture and, but sorry I can’t remember it.�?BR>00:07:03 1485 "Okay.�?BR>Reply "But Russell was, I say, you know that was where his strengths was and he went down trying to link up the computers and was good at that kind of (inaudible).�?BR>1485 "Where did the com, where did they link the computer up?�?BR>Reply "Err the err originally I thought it had been done in the reception at the Ocean Club, not the Tapas bar, but then I realised it was actually the Tapas bar, err sorry the other reception as you walk through into the Tapas complex err there’s a room just on the right there err they’d got a computer and a printer there err that’s how they sorted it out.�?BR>1485 "And Russell did that?�?BR>Reply "Russell did that yes.�?BR>1485 "Was that at Gerry’s request?�?BR>Reply "My, well it might have been Gerry’s or mine, it was something that we, you know, we, you know you’re trying to think what we should do in the circumstances and we thought right you know a picture, we’ve gotta get a picture out because you know everybody didn’t know who Madeleine was so if people were searching for her they needed a picture to identify her, but we, you know, we were also convinced that you know she’d been taken and there was a high chance that someone had got transport to take her, given the way that we thought you know she’d been carried off and err you know, we, well if, if, the worst scenario if there was, if someone was gonna move Madeleine away from that area, you know we wanted the, to try and get the, err, the area secured. Therefore they would need a picture to see who, to identify her so it was something that we were, those, those two things we were, you know keen at trying to secure that, you know, the picture was available and err the, you know the roads were closed down in the surrounding areas.�?BR>00:08:40 1485 "How many photos were there?�?BR>Reply "Err again, I don’t, I didn’t see all the photos but I know there was at least ten that were printed off, but whether there was more than that I couldn’t say but I know that there was at least ten available.�?BR>1485 "And they were all of Madeleine?�?BR>Reply "They were.�?BR>1485 "Were they all the same pictures?�?BR>Reply "Err again, I would have to say I think so, I didn’t see all the copies.�?BR>1485 "Okay.�?BR>Reply "But I know that’s what, you know, Russell said, again, I think.�?BR>1485 "Right and do you know where they all went�?
Reply "I don’t know.�?BR>1485 "Okay. Did you take any photos on the night at the Tapas bar?�?BR>Reply "No I didn’t.�?BR>1485 "Did anybody take any photos?�?BR>Reply "Err…�?BR>1485 "Before Kate obviously raised the alarm.�?BR>Reply "Not that I’m aware of. There wasn’t, normally we’re quite snap happy but err we’ve only got a few pictures from the second of May, then the third of May and then you know a few days until err so there wasn’t a great deal of pictures being taken err you know obviously there was a few here and there, Jane’s quite keen on photography, I know she takes some nice pictures and I’d taken some in the play area on the, the, err the night before and we’ve also got pictures of the, the afternoon from the beach and from the restaurant and then the play area again and there’s some pictures of us playing tennis err with the times on, so you know that’s about the last pictures that I can recall. I’ve got our pictures and I’ve got Dianne’s pictures but I’ve certainly not seen anybody else’s err completely.�?BR>00:10:35 1485 "What about the night before? The Wednesday night, did you take any pictures, were any pictures taken then? Or did you see any pictures being taken then?�?BR>Reply "In the evening?�?BR>1485 "Yeah, because I understand that you stayed later on the Wednesday night.�?BR>Reply "We did, yes, err the pictures that I’ve got, there are some pictures on one of the evenings and I can’t say which evening that was.�?BR>1485 "Your camera should…�?BR>Reply "My cameras will have the…�?BR>1485 "It’ll have…�?BR>Reply "It’ll have the date on there.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "But I, you know I can’t remember which evening, I thought it was earlier on in the week but err but again it wasn’t, it wasn’t, you know in the evenings wasn’t generally camera time, I don’t think people were that bothered really in the evening and that taking pictures, it wasn’t...�?BR>1485 "Because it would have all pictures of you huddled together and...�?BR>Reply "Well it would yeah.�?BR>1485 "(Inaudible).�?BR>Reply "That was it yeah. I mean as I say there’s only like two or three pictures I think we’ve got from the evening.�?BR>1485 "Right. When you had your beach hour on the Thursday, so you came off windsurfing and then you had food at the beach bar, where was Kate and Gerry?�?BR>00:11:52 Reply "Err I mean they certainly weren’t at the beach bar err you know there was, as I say it was all parties apart, apart from the MCCANN family and I wasn’t aware what they were doing at that, that moment.�?BR>1485 "About, not long after, well before sorry you went, you left…�?BR>Reply "I mean obviously Gerry was playing tennis…�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "Around that time because you know I knew that I was going up to meet with Gerry.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "Sorry, but you know, I’ll make that a bit clearer sorry, when we were doing the water sports and that I know at some stage I think we played tennis and that but I couldn’t say you know what, or they’re in, you know the times we’re around there and I knew that Gerry was playing tennis around when we were thinking of going back to, to walk up with him, to play tennis in the evening.�?BR>1485 "So you knew as opposed to seeing them?�?BR>Reply "Well I, I knew Gerry was you know, around that time sorry that he was going to be playing tennis, but I mean I don’t know, I couldn’t tell you what they were doing earlier on in that afternoon.�?BR>1485 "Yeah. Did you see Kate running along the beach at all?�?BR>Reply "I didn’t, no.�?BR>1485 "During that day?�?BR>Reply "No.�?BR>1485 "Around the teatime ish side?�?BR>Reply "Err, again, again I, sorry to say this again but I, I you know she’d been running quite a bit after Madeleine err had gone, and, and again it just gets a little bit patchy and you know, I know I saw her on the beach running, but whether that was after or before I can’t remember.�?BR>1485 "(Inaudible.)�?BR>00:13:25 Reply "That’d be something I’d probably, if I looked at my statement if there’s anything in there.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "I would be guided by that. Err I don’t…�?BR>1485 "So you…�?BR>Reply "I don’t think I did, if I, you know if you wanted me to hedge a bet on that one then I’d say more likely I can’t remember seeing her running on that, that afternoon but I, I’d prefer to have a look at my statement because I’m sure of at the time of my statement I would have mentioned that.�?BR>1485 "Okay. I’d like you to describe Madeleine to me. What sort of a child she is and you know how you see her.�?BR>Reply "Mm, err Madeleine’s err a very striking err beautiful child, I’d almost if I want a better phrase call her doll-like, you know she was very, you know I think, you know very unique looking child err, she’d got very pretty, you know blonde hair err in a bob, she was quite a petite err child and you know she was very bubbly, very err you know she was a very good child to, to interact with. She was very bright, you could have a lot of fun with Madeleine err and you know she, she was, you know Kate and Gerry’s, you know pride and joy. They’d had a lot of trouble conceiving, you know with IVF and everything and you know Madeleine was their miracle. She was obviously very unique with the fact that she’d got the, you know the iris defect err but you know she was certainly a happy go lucky child you know she was, she would interact with the other children very well, as I said on the other, earlier recording, you know she played very happily with Lily and you know indeed the other children. She was, you know, very, she is a very beautiful child and good fun.�?BR>1485 "Mm.�?BR>00:15:30 Reply "You know I, you know a fact I’ve come across already you know she was a, she’s a very bright child you know, she wouldn’t be the kind of mischievous child who you know and just try and get out of the flat and you know get up to mischief and that, you know, there’s fun in all children but she certainly wasn’t that kind of child. She was very bright.�?BR>1485 "Moving on then to the time that you, when you say after the alarm was raised you went into the MCCANN’S apartment. Can you describe the layout of the apartment?�?BR>Reply "If you’re going in through the patio doors you walk directly into the, err the living, you know, lounge space. Then if you’re going, walking through the apartment towards the front door you have the kitchen on the, err right, which was a small kitchen, which was boxed off from the rest of err open plan living space. If you were walking from the patio doors into the apartment and you were walking towards the front door and turn left you would go towards the bedroom areas. Directly in front of you, you had the bathroom err as you were looking at the bathroom the door to the left would be the, the room where Kate and Gerry stayed and the door to the right was err where the children were sleeping. Err you know there was the double bed in the err Kate and Gerry’s room and as you went into err Sean and Amelie’s room there was a bed up against the far wall where there was the, you know, was the window. There was another bed parallel to that but across the other side of the room, err along the wall where the door is where you walked into the apartment. In between the two parallel beds was the, err two cots also parallel with the space err between the two of them, and obviously the twins were sleeping in the err cots and then err Madeleine was on the bed which was nearest the door that you walked in to get in there.�?BR>1485 "Okay. When you went in after the alarm was raised what was the bedroom like at that point?�?BR>00:18:01 Reply "Err the, you know again I, it, it wasn’t, it wasn’t dark, it wasn’t really, really dark but it you know my overall impression was the room was fairly dark. The, the children as I said before were still err fast asleep, which again you know we’ve discussed this you know over the months that Kate and Gerry you know, as all children wake up you know in the night and err you know with all the pandemonium and the shouting, breaking, that they were still you know, fast asleep, and err you know I wouldn’t describe that I could see anything in the room like there’d been, you know, clothes thrown around the room or anything and disturbed and you know I, I noticed that the bed was empty that Madeleine was sleeping in. Other people have described that the bed was very neat and tidy but that isn’t what, you know, I could confirm.�?BR>1485 "What was the bed like that you can confirm?�?BR>Reply "I, I, you know, I, my note, visual note was she’s not there, the twins are there, you know I just ran out and you know was wanting to, you know, run around like a headless chicken and try and do something you know to be helpful.�?BR>00:19:23 1485 "How long do you think you were in that bedroom for?�?BR>Reply "Err as I say when I was there I wasn’t actually, hadn’t walked in to the whole part of the bedroom, if anything I’d just stepped in to the room just from the, err you know the doorway perhaps just beyond the doorway, but I hadn’t you know gone right in to say like where the twins were or in between where the beds were. Err again it’s, it’s difficult, it’s difficult to say because I could have well pop back more than once just, you know, you know with Gerry, you know moving, you know we were moving around so frequently, err I wasn’t certainly there for any length of time, whether it’d be a minute, you know that would be something, or that I’d ever stayed at the maximum because there was just so much else.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "You know going on with people running around etcetera.�?BR>1485 "Throughout the holiday from the twenty eighth till the fifth, or till the third…�?BR>Reply "Mm.�?BR>1485 "How many times do you think you actually went into the MCCANN’S apartment?�?BR>00:20:33 Reply "Err probably more than other people as I said there was the, there was one, there was the incident with the cot where were trying to, you know, had some difficulty with one of the cots that had been provided to err you know so and they’d got the spare cot that you know so I had to go down and pick that up and then I, I popped in there you know some other times as well, I say I probably, in total during the week, I’d have said five, half a dozen times I’d been to that apartment.�?BR>1485 "Okay. Just going back to the phone numbers, do you recall I told, or you mentioned the Portuguese number?�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>1485 "I mentioned to you that they’d sent you, or they sent to your phone a text message on the fourth, which is the following, the next day about twenty past ten, sorry two minutes past ten.�?BR>Reply "Right.�?BR>1485 "And then eight minutes past ten.�?BR>Reply "Mm.�?BR>1485 "Did you actually speak to these people?�?BR>Reply "Err…�?BR>1485 "In Portugal?�?BR>Reply "The, I mean, the other, there was a, the other person who contacted me which I didn’t mention while I was at the Police Station was one of the Portuguese err newspapers and err you know asking, you know for comments and err so that could have been what the, you know, the number. I spoke, I did speak to the other, the friends of Simon ALDRIDGE’S who you know who kindly bought the phones and they actually bought the phones to the Portimão Police Station and I went downstairs and got the phones and then err brought them back upstairs. Err in terms of you know whether I, we spoke to them on the next day sorry, was that the question?�?BR>1485 "Well you spoke to them on the next day, the next day yeah that Madeleine went missing, on the fourth.�?BR>Reply "Right.�?BR>1485 "That’s when, well, there’s text messages but what I’m asking you is, did you speak to them?�?BR>00:22:29 Reply "Err I don’t remember having any text conversation with any err Portuguese newspapers so I presume that Portuguese number, they, sorry yeah the other, the, the other Portuguese person I spoke with was err there was err a Solicitor in err Lisbon who err the conversation it may well have been with Lisa LACARNIE because that was a friend of their family who they, they’ve got a business in the UK but they deal with Portugal and Lisa said if you need any err Portuguese advice then there’s err Paolo, and again I’ve got his number in my other phone which might clarify that bit.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "And err he err and I did speak to him again after that day so it may well have been him just to say oh you know do you want any help, do you want any advice, and err and that you know that’s how it was left at that, that stage so that might have been, piecing it together from what you’re saying.�?BR>1485 "Do you recall me telling you about the London number, which you couldn’t find in your phone?�?BR>Reply "Yes.�?BR>00:24:00 1485 "That number actually transcribes back to the Crime Specialist Director in London.�?BR>Reply "Mm.�?BR>1485 "Did you contact them?�?BR>Reply "Err I did yes. My, err you know my sister err had been in contact with them and she was trying to do everything that she could knowing the, err, the difficulties that we were having out there so you know I did approach them just asking for advice but err I can’t remember, I don’t think I actually spoke to anyone there, but for some reason that wasn’t carried forward.�?BR>1485 "Yeah.�?BR>Reply "But I mean, you know, just into the context of the conversation you know we’re in a strange country, we’ve got no representeers we don’t know what’s going on, all hell’s broken loose and you know to see whether you can do anything to help Madeleine come back, you know and that was the lines that we were taking.�?BR>1485 "Do you remember who you spoke to?�?BR>Reply "I don’t know.�?BR>1485 "The call was made on the following day at twenty three thirteen, so that’s late at night.�?BR>Reply "Mm.�?BR>1485 "You don’t recollect anything else about the conversation that you had with that, was it you that made the call?�?BR>Reply "Err I, yeah I know that I got phone numbers from my sister which I did you know ring them but I can’t remember making one late at night.�?BR>00:25:35 1485 "Okay. Okay just finally we’ll come on to the, Kate and Gerry’s questions and you may have answered these.�?BR>Reply "Okay yeah.�?BR>1485 "The first question is an obvious question. How long have you known Gerry and Kate? And what kind of a relationship do you have with the couple?�?BR>Reply "Yeah, err I say Fiona first worked with Kate err at an anaesthetic registrar and I was doing research back in two thousand, err so that’s you know we ended up going out err for the night and then you know we’re very good friends ever since. Err we went away to err Lanzarote err that was gonna be about two thousand and three, they came to our wedding later in two thousand and three. We went to Majorca with them a year later and again had a very good you know holiday with them there. You know we see them, you know re, you know quite frequently, we’ve always got on extremely well. Err the more I know Gerry the more I like the guy, err and it works great you know because Fiona has a really good relationship with Kate, I get on really well with Gerry, you know I get on well with Kate as well. Our kids all get on well together and you know we, you know they, you know they are just such lovely people they’ve got time for absolutely every, anybody and to hear the things that have been said about them again is just, you know it’s completely err heartbreaking really because they are, they’re just, they are the salt of the earth they really are.�?BR>00:27:42 1485 "Have you ever been at Kate and Gerry’s home when their children have been at home? And if so, how many times?�?BR>Reply "Yes, I mean we, err we know them when they were err living at, obviously when they were at Queniborough first, we’ve known Madeleine ever since, you know she’s err been around and we went over to see them in Amsterdam as well and you watched Madeleine, you know, we were all the staying there together then since the twins have been around we’ve been round as well so we’ve been many, many times you know when they’ve been together, you know the children have been there err so yeah.�?BR>1485 "Were your children present as well?�?BR>Reply "Yeah, yeah, you know because obviously between the five children and we’ve known them ever since, before we’ve had children and then when each one’s come along you know we’ve always been, you know each family’s been pleased for the other family if you like and there’s always, you know wanted to be available when you, your children are being born and congratulate and to help and err and so I think you know ever since we’ve known them and since we had children we’ve always been around.�?BR>00:28:55 1485 "And the next question is have you ever been on holiday with them before? Well yes you have.�?BR>Reply "Mm.�?BR>1485 "How did they take care of the children at night when you went away with them before?�?BR>Reply "Err when err we were, when we were, well when they came to our wedding first of all Madeleine was very young then so you know they kept her you know with them at all times. When we went to err Majorca together it was a big err building you know for, big enough for four couples and the family and we just stayed at that particular err you know farm house, you know all the time really so if, when the kids went to bed we were downstairs. Err they, when we were there they were downstairs so they weren’t far away from err you know where we were staying that night and err you know their kids slept very well that holiday and err but you know they were, they were very close by and people were passing by you know just to check on the kids upstairs because we were having a bit more of a problem so you know there was a lot of activity not far away from where their children were, they’d all slept very well in that early part of the evening, well I think through the night generally. So we were very close by err we were, we ate generally in, in the place itself which wasn’t many metres away but you know certainly they were very responsible and err you know certainly nothing.�?/DIV>