Thanks Doz

 

I saved the link and I will look it over.  About posting links... not sure what the rules are yet... could you check out the post I made to gig concerning Brother Moore and let me know if I can post the link that I mentioned in it?  Thanks

 

In Christ,

 

Cindy

I don’t know a lot about either Charles Manson or Adrian Rogers. I have never met or spent time with either one of them. I don’t say that to be sarcastic�?but as a fact. Who can know if or what Charles Manson might, or might not, have prayed when he was alone, beyond the eyes of man�?or what vices Adrian Rogers might have had that he kept hidden from the eyes of man

The most religious acting man might be the epitome of goodness and salvation in public �?but beyond the eyes of man �?have a horrible temper problem, beat his wife or indulge in overmuch supper. (Who determines what is considered to be the acceptable or unacceptable behavior of a saved person?) No one sees him beat his wife, so is it just assumed he is saved in the eyes of man? If someone happened up on his house one night and saw him beat his wife, would he no longer be saved in their eyes?

Could the worst drunk in the gutter be a saved person? Had he been even tempered, loved his wife and ate right would he have been considered saved? Perhaps his wife died, and he couldn’t face life without her and was weak in the flesh as he tried to escape the heartache in drink. Is it impossible to believe that he might be a saved man? If he got sober, cleaned himself up, met someone new, remarried and lived a better life�?could he then be considered saved in the eyes of man?

Salvation is not of the flesh�?it is of the spirit.

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

We will always have a problem with the flesh until it is changed.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Christ died for my sins�?nbsp; What right does any man have to hold against me what God himself, because of the works of His Son, isn’t holding against me.

Salvation isn’t about what we do or don’t do�?It is about what Christ did.

In Christ,

Cindy

Who can know if or what Charles Manson might, or might not, have prayed when he was alone, beyond the eyes of man�?or what vices Adrian Rogers might have had that he kept hidden from the eyes of man

The most religious acting man might be the epitome of goodness and salvation in public �?but beyond the eyes of man �?have a horrible temper problem, beat his wife or indulge in overmuch supper.

 

Of course.  Only God knows for sure.  Nonetheless, the smart money is on the fastest horse and James says, "You SAY you have faith without works but I will SHOW YOU my faith BY my works."  Therefore, the Biblical principle is that there is an observable and marked change in a person when they become a Christ.

"Look!  If any man be in Christ he is a NEW creation--old things have passed away--look and see! all things are become new!" (my paraphrase of 2 Cor. 5.17).

If someone happened up on his house one night and saw him beat his wife, would he no longer be saved in their eyes?

Could the worst drunk in the gutter be a saved person?  [Cindy]

 

You SAY you have faith without works--I will SHOW you my faith BY my works.  A wife-beater may convince God he is saved but he won't convince me and he is supposed to be a witness to the world, right?

You are close on the drunk.  You quoted Gal. 5.17.  Move on down four verses to Gal. 5.21 and tell me what it says about a drunkard inheriting the Kingdom of God.

 

I suppose the opposite would be true, those who are making decisions based upon the flesh are placing themselves back under the law.  This is commonly referred to as legalism.

 

 

An inheritance is not salvation, to equate the two is legalism for the physical promises to Israel through Abraham are an inheritance.

The inheritance for the Christian is a glorified body and getting to reign with Christ.

 

 

Wow... you folks move along quite quickly. lol... I will do my best to keep up.

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If someone happened up on his house one night and saw him beat his wife, would he no longer be saved in their eyes?

Could the worst drunk in the gutter be a saved person? [Cindy]

You SAY you have faith without works--I will SHOW you my faith BY my works. A wife-beater may convince God he is saved but he won't convince me and he is supposed to be a witness to the world, right?

____________________________________________________________________

I will agree that we should know how we should behave ourselves,

1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth

We should try set a good example for others, just as Paul did.

2 Thessalonians 3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

But that doesn't mean we are always going to be able to do so without some failures, or misbehaviors (big or small, short term problems or lifetime battles). Those failures or misbehaviors do not have any effect our salvation, but perhaps they could have some effect on the salvation of someone not yet saved, or even cause limits to the work done by another saved brother or sister in Christ.

I am keeping in mind that our works have nothing to do with sin. Sin isn't the issue. Christ died for all the sins of all men... not all will accept that sacrifice and they will answer for the unbelief ... not for the sin itself.

2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

We can't even do works for the Lord until we are saved.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We become a workman after we are saved, and as sin has been forgiven... it is not sin works that are referred to in the following verses but how we built on the foundation of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

We will suffer loss of rewards, but not our salvation. The judgment seat of Christ is only for the saved... and is a judgment of purification, and reward, not of punishment.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Mr Wonder, you said:

You are close on the drunk. You quoted Gal. 5.17. Move on down four verses to Gal. 5.21 and tell me what it says about a drunkard inheriting the Kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Let's start with 19 and move on to 21 and beyond.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Galatians 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Are we Christ's? Have we crudified the flesh? Further, do we have condemnation? Do we walk in the flesh or in the Spirit?

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Are we in the flesh or in the spirit?

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

A saved person is no longer in the flesh... but in the spirit....

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Our flesh has not been made perfect.... Even Paul had problems with it.

Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

No where can I find a verse that says I will never again ever do anything wrong in the flesh. The flesh is not an issue for the saved believer. It is simply the manner with which we maneuver our spirits though the space, time and matter we know as the physical.

When Christ died on the cross in AD 33, every sin I would ever commit was placed on him. I wasn't even physically born yet. Why would I now think that there is any single thing that I have done, or things I don't even know I am going to decide to do yet, that Christ hasn't already forgiven me for.

So I maintain... God saw my life, the life of the religious man, and the life of the worst drunk in the gutter... and died for us all... when we trusted Christ as our Saviour, we were washed, sanctified and justified by Christ, no matter what anyone sees when they look at us.

In Christ

Cindy

But that doesn't mean we are always going to be able to do so without some failures, or misbehaviors (big or small, short term problems or lifetime battles). Those failures or misbehaviors do not have any effect our salvation, but perhaps they could have some effect on the salvation of someone not yet saved, or even cause limits to the work done by another saved brother or sister in Christ.

Agreed.

I am keeping in mind that our works have nothing to do with sin. Sin isn't the issue. Christ died for all the sins of all men... not all will accept that sacrifice and they will answer for the unbelief ... not for the sin itself.

Disagree.  The Bible is clear we will answer for the deeds done in the body, not just the unbelief.