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|  0 recommendations | Message 1 of 58 in Discussion |
| | (Original Message) | Sent: 12/21/2007 12:09 AM |
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I decided to post two on water baptism. |
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Doz, I do appologise if what I said offended you, or anyone else in the group. That was not my intention. I will be more careful in the future as to how I word the things I say. I didn't mean for it to sound like I attacked you personally, but I can see now how it would. For that I am sorry. My intention was to be clear that it is the Word of God that is important and not my words. It is my belief that the Word of God interprets itself. We just need to study to find out what it really says, where it says it, and who is being spoken to when it is spoken. I think that is crucial to our understanding. I agree, no man, woman, teacher or preacher can be considered perfect, including me. That is why we have to check out the Word of God for what we hear, The Word is His perfect word. He is our final authority. I think we can all say that our journey to our understanding hasn't been easy. We have all climb the hill of doctrine in different denominations, just to fall on our faces when the Word of God proved what they were saying was wrong. Trust has been broken over and over in my life when I trusted someone, in religious authority, that I thought would know the answers only to find out they couldn't answer the questions. Again, I appologise to you and to the group... and if I have said anything in any of the other posts I have made since that one... I will be more careful as of today... the 13th of January... cause this group moves quickly and I can't unpost anything you all may have read since the 11th. I do understand and I am not offended in any way. I am truly sorry if I upset you with my words. I understand the responsibilities of the managers and it isn't an easy job. In Christ, Cindy |
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Water baptism is IDENTIFICATION. Identification with what? It is identification with Christ. Water baptism of babies is not Scriptural. When I underwent water baptism I was telling all in attendance that I identified myself with Jesus Christ, just as He identified Himself with me when He was baptized in water. |
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What is the difference between saying--- one must work for salvation....... and saying: one is not saved if one does not show works. There is no way to work for salvation, for that is the free gift of God to those who believe. If there is no evidence of a change it's because there has been no change. If you put your hand on POWER I will know it because you will show it. Place your hand on 220 volts of electricity and see if there is any way to keep quiet about it. Touch the power of God in salvation and see if there is no change in your life. Both are impossible. God changes people. They took knowledge of them that they had been with Jesus. |
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The Lord Jesus went to John the Baptizer to be baptized of him. John's baptism was a baptism of repentance from sin. The Lord was not a sinner and did not need to be baptized. So why did He do it? Because He was identifying Himself with His own people. "He came unto His own and His own received Him not, but as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God--even to them that believe on His name." He was the Lamb slain from the world's foundation. He was the fulfillment of the Passover Lamb. As John said, "The Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world." He partook of flesh and blood with His own, but without sin. He identified Himself with sinners and was the sinner's friend, though He was sinless. "For He hath made Him to be sin for us--(He) who knew no sin, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." He was in a sense baptized into the human condition when He was baptized in water, for He took on the likeness of sinful flesh, yet without sin. He bore our sins on the Cross, yet He was the spotless Lamb. He was no sinner but identified Himself with sinners. We are not saints in ourselves we identify ourselves with Him when we are baptized in water, for it signifies our death with Him on His Cross, our burial, and our resurrection with Him unto a new life of holiness unto the Lord. He became poor that we could become rich. He became sin that we could become the righteousness of God. He was bruised for our iniquities. The chastisement of our peace was upon Him. We were healed by His stripes. Though no sinner, He joined with us and redeemed us. Though no saints, we joined with Him and received His righteousness. When He was baptized in water, He accepted me. When I was baptized in water, I accepted Him. |
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| | From:  olegig | Sent: 1/14/2008 5:12 PM |
What is the difference between saying--- one must work for salvation....... and saying: one is not saved if one does not show works. There is no way to work for salvation, for that is the free gift of God to those who believe. If there is no evidence of a change it's because there has been no change. If you put your hand on POWER I will know it because you will show it. Place your hand on 220 volts of electricity and see if there is any way to keep quiet about it. Touch the power of God in salvation and see if there is no change in your life. Both are impossible. God changes people. They took knowledge of them that they had been with Jesus. In the quote above in green from #39 you forgot to quote my last statement, but I see by what you said above in blue, you did prove my last statement from #39 which was: The bottom line in the above two statements is that there is no salvation unless there are works. |
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I prefer to say there is no salvation if there are no results. Now the fact is the results may be rather miniscule to your eyes and mine--only God can judge correctly for He possesses all facts. So I never wish to say anyone is definitely saved or definitely lost. I just said they appear to me to be so, but I don't know for sure---only God knows for sure. The Lord tells me that I can judge a tree by its fruit--the good tree brings forth the good fruit and cannot bring forth the bad and vice versa. However, I will still admit that I am not the best fruit inspector--He is. I still hold to 2nd Cor. 5.17--If any man be in Christ, he is new creation... |
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| | | From: olegig | Sent: 1/15/2008 1:35 PM |
I still hold to 2nd Cor. 5.17--If any man be in Christ, he is new creation... I agree; but still the doctrine of scripture is interpreted by other scripture. Therefore IMO we can glean the meaning of some passages from the meanings or actions shown in other passages. We should always remember the man in 1Cor 5:1 who did commit a sin, a horible sin; but yet he is still saved according to vs5. He may have lost any hope of rewards, and he may have lost his inheritance of a glorified body; but his spirit is saved. |
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He repented, thus demonstrating his life was truly changed. |
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Heck no. He wouldn't have repented of sin had he not already in the past repented of unbelief and trusted Christ. See, that's the thing. Christians have failures, but they will persevere because they are preserved~~kept by the power of God, through faith, unto life eternal~~the righteous falls seven times but the Lord lifts him up. The fact he repented after a fall and didn't stay down to the end is an indication that he was indeed previously saved. Had he never repented of his sinful lifestyle, THEN I would believe he had never been saved at all. Godly sorrow worketh repentance not to be repented of. The Holy Spirit within us is grieved by our sins and failures--IF He is within us--and thus when we fail we will confess and forsake our sins. |
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| | | From: olegig | Sent: 1/16/2008 3:08 PM |
But by other things you have said I feel you would judge him lost before he repented on the basis of his actions, his works per you application of James 2:17 to the Body as doctrine. My point is that we cannot judge that a person is lost by their actions even if they do not have an immediate, fleshly, turn-around when they are first saved. The passage from James that says faith is shown by works has no doctrinal application for the Body of Christ because it did not have application to the man before he repented. You say he would not have repented had he not been previously saved; but you also would say before he repented that he was not saved on the basis of James 2:17. To make the Biblical example from 1Cor 5 fit your understanding of James 2:17 one would have to say he was saved, then he lost it when he sinned, then he got saved again. This is the web we weave when we take Kingdom doctrines, which were written to the Jews, and try to apply them to the Body. And many false denominations have sprung up from doing just this. |
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When did I advocate judging? I have said a million times that we don't know; only God knows. Maybe this will help: It ain't over till it's over. A man may profess Christ and be faking. He may yet be lost. He may live that way for 30 years, and 1 year before his death he might genuinely believe on Christ and genuinely be saved. We all have our opinions of who we think is saved and who we think is not, but if we are honest we will also all admit that WE do not know; only God knows, for only God knows the thoughts and intents of the heart and is in possession of all facts, past and future and present. |
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