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General : Whatsover is Born of God Does Not Sin
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Message 1 of 14 in Discussion

From:

_MrWonder_ (Original Message)

Sent: 10/10/2008 1:05 PM

Whatsover is Born of God Does Not Sin

This means the person who has been born again has a spirit made alive by the Holy Spirit in the image of Jesus Christ and that spirit does not sin.

The motions of sin are in the unregenerate mind but the spirit-man is complete in Christ Jesus and is one spirit with Him and does not sin.

Because of this, we are to crucify the old fleshly sinful nature of the natural mind within us and live in the flesh conformed to the life of the spirit within.

It does NOT mean that a Christian never sins - indeed, the Christian is more aware of sin in his life than ever before, but it means the new man created in Christ (his spirit) is sin-free and righteous in Christ.

The carnal nature is gone forever when we are resurrected in the new body, and thus sin shall never exist on the streets of the New Jerusalem.

Published 10.10.2008

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Message 2 of 14 in Discussion

From:

Don__42

Sent: 10/11/2008 12:43 PM

Sent: 10/10/2008 7:38 PM

MrWonder,

You say plainly in your first sentence that a born again does not sin:

"This means the person who has been born again has a spirit made alive by the Holy Spirit in the image of Jesus Christ and that spirit does not sin."

These are your words, not mine. Either believers in Christ do sin or they do not.

Than you say:

"The motions of sin are in the unregenerate mind but the spirit-man is complete in Christ Jesus and is one spirit with Him and does not sin."

This is a contradiction of spiritual reality. A believer cannot be regenerated by the Holy Spirit and unregenerated at the same time. James makes it clear a spring of water cannot produce salt water and clear water at the same time.

I do agree with you on this statement:

"It does NOT mean that a Christian never sins - indeed, the Christian is more aware of sin in his life than ever before, but it means the new man created in Christ (his spirit) is sin-free and righteous in Christ."

Than you say:

"The carnal nature is gone forever when we are resurrected in the new body, and thus sin shall never exist on the streets of the New Jerusalem."

Again, this is not possible because the carnal mind or carnal nature in this life is not subject to God's will so that person is a lawless person and according will not spend eternity with Christ.

"Rom. 8:6 through Rom. 8:9 (KJV) ⁶For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. ⁷Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. ⁸So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. ⁹But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Even in this passage Paul says it's carnality or spiritually. One or the other not both.

Thus, the carnal mind or carnal nature has to be destroyed this side of the resurrection so the believer can live a blameless in the beauty of holiness.

Don

Message 3 of 14 in Discussion

From:

_MrWonder_

Sent: 10/14/2008 2:57 AM

Everybody sins one way or another until they have passed to the other state.

Message 4 of 14 in Discussion

From:

Don__42

Sent: 10/14/2008 1:18 PM

We agree that everyone sins one way or another this side of the resurrection.

Is it possible to find common ground on the difference between sin and willful sin?

Don

Message 5 of 14 in Discussion

From:

_MrWonder_

Sent: 10/15/2008 12:55 PM

Hi Don:

I don't think that's hard to do. There are sins of ignorance and any sin that we are not ignorant of basically has to fall into the category of willful.

Christ has set us free from the power of sin. We sin because we choose to, other than the exception noted above.

Message 6 of 14 in Discussion

From:

wedgewoodthyme

Sent: 10/16/2008 2:30 PM

Perhaps a couple of Scripture verses will help with understanding.

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

There is no sin in Christ.

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Our Spirits are cut away from (circumcised) our flesh. In the flesh we still have the ability to sin... in the Spirit we do not. This flesh ins't going to heaven... our vile bodies will be changed and that new body will not sin.

While we are in this physical body we have a fight going on to keep it under control. We won't always be able to do that.

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

In Christ,

Cindy

Message 7 of 14 in Discussion

From:

Don__42

Sent: 10/17/2008 2:29 AM

Hi MrWonder,

We are getting closer to some common in that now we agree there are sins of ignorance. Can we revise and reword the well known phrase "We sin everyday in word thought and deed?"

Perhaps a rewording or a new phrase could be "We sin everyday ignorantly in word, thought, and deed?"

If we can reach that agreement the next step is what can we agree on pertaining to God's view of willful sin?

Don

Message 8 of 14 in Discussion

From:

Don__42

Sent: 10/17/2008 2:43 AM

Hi Cindy,

Thank you for your response. I have a problen with this sentence:

"Our Spirits are cut away from (circumcised) our flesh. In the flesh we still have the ability to sin... in the Spirit we do not. This flesh ins't going to heaven... our vile bodies will be changed and that new body will not sin."

This isa Gnostic teaching that has entered into the churc in the first century. The Gnostics taught matter (the body which is matter) is evil in and of itself. Thus it will be evil by nature and as such will conduct itself in an evil manner. However they taught the spirit could do no evil because the spirit was in search of knowledge and knew some act were wrong and those were done in the body.

Paul teaches that believers in Christ are to present their bodies a living sacrifice Holy acceptable to God which is a believers reasonable service to God.

Paul never taught the body, soul, and spirit were seperate in the manner the Gnostics did. He taught the three were one in Christ and in until death seperates the soul and spirit from th body.

There has been an on going debate as you may know over the centuries as to whther a person is body and spirit, or body, soul, and spirit. I choose the latter for alot of reasons.

Don

Message 9 of 14 in Discussion

From:

wedgewoodthyme

Sent: 10/17/2008 1:27 PM

As you know I don't pay a lot of attention to teachings such as Gnostic or other "wisdom of man" teachings. I do pay alot of attention to what the Word of God says.

The Word of God says that we have recieved a circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh.

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

So what does that mean?

From the Strong's Concordance, circumcision is defined as a G4059

peritemnō per-ee-tem'-no

From G4012 and the base of G5114; to cut around, that is, (specifically) to circumcise: - circumcise."cutting away"

So what was cut away or cut around? What was separated within our bodies. Something was done with the body of the sins of the flesh. It was cut away, cut away from what? Cut away from our Spirit. How? By the circumcision of Chirst. Christ died, went to hell and left the body of the sins of the flesh there. He rose and ascended into Heaven without them.

As we are complete in Him... we are spiritually sinless. We have not yet died adn undergone the physical resurrection, or experienced the rapture, so in the flesh we are still sinful. But When God looks at us He doesn't see that flesh... He sees us seated in Heavenly places with His Son. In order to be there we have to be spiritually sinless. It wasn't brought about by something we did... it was brought about by something Chirst did.

We are still in the state of a trinity... I have no doubt about that, but just because you put three things in a jar... it doesn't mean those three things are completely connected one to the other.

In Christ,

Cindy

Message 10 of 14 in Discussion

From:

_MrWonder_

Sent: 10/17/2008 4:14 PM

I doubt highly that we sin very often ignorantly. The indwelling Holy Spirit will tell us that we are sinning, therefore I believe almost all sin is committed knowingly and willingly.

The "flesh" is a euphemism for the sin nature that indwells us. Flesh itself is neutral. It expresses what the soul in man tells it to express. Our minds must be renewed daily to the Word of God.

Message 11 of 14 in Discussion

From:

_MrWonder_

Sent: 10/17/2008 4:18 PM

As Don has apparently stated, the body itself is not sinful in itself. It symbolizes sin in the believer.

We are a spirit, we have a soul, and it controls the body.

At creation, the spirit controlled the soul and the soul controlled the body.

When man sinned, the spirit died, and the soul became the master of all and it was a soul with a sin nature. Therefore the motions of sin reigned in the body.

The body is thus a metaphorical picture of fallen man in his sinful condition. We call it "the flesh" but it's just a symbol.

When a person is saved, the spirit is reborn (made alive unto God) and is supposed to rule the soul and the soul rule the body. The problem is that we do not always walk in the spirit and the sin nature in the soul continues to rise up and dominate the life, thus committing the motions of sins in the body.

That is why the mind must be renewed daily and brought into subjection to the spirit.

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Message 12 of 14 in Discussion

Sent: 10/18/2008 3:20 PM

This message has been deleted by the author.

Message 13 of 14 in Discussion

From:

wedgewoodthyme

Sent: 10/18/2008 3:22 PM

"the body itself is not sinful in itself."

The physical body is flesh and it is sinful in nature, scripture says it is.

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

The word "of" is defined as "belonging to". Therefore the verse is saying that sins belong to the flesh.

Why else would our bodies be called vile and need to be changed before we can go to heaven.

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

I am not sure how you can say that flesh/the body is not sinfull in itself. If I do with my hands that which is sinful... did my hands somehow not do the thing?

"When man sinned, the spirit died"

So why doesn't Scripture say that? Why does Scripture tell us these things: (Keep in mind this is just a listing of Scripture, not the context of them, that talks about the spirit of man)

Genesis 41:8 And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled; and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt, and all the wise men thereof: and Pharaoh told them his dream; but there was none that could interpret them unto Pharaoh.

If Pharaoh's spirit was dead... how could it be troubled?

Exodus 6:9 And Moses spake so unto the children of Israel: but they hearkened not unto Moses for anguish of spirit, and for cruel bondage.

If the children of Israel's spirits were dead... how could they it be anguished?

Deuteronomy 2:30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

If Sihon's spirit was dead...how could it be hardened?

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

Proverbs 16:32 He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Our spirits are not dead!

In Chirst,

Cindy

Message 14 of 14 in Discussion

From:

_MrWonder_

Sent: 11/1/2008 7:47 PM

No, flesh is not sinful. It is symbolism for that which is not the spirit. A dead body cannot sin. It is the dead-to-God spirit and carnal mind within a living body that sins. The body simply expresses the will of the spirit-mind that is within it.

Get your spirit born again, saved, and your mind renewed, and that fleshly body will BEHAVE.

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