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 Message 1 of 7 in Discussion 
From: MSN Nickname_MrWonder_  (Original Message)Sent: 3/14/2008 3:19 PM

GOD THE FATHER.

God is described as the Father in different ways.

  • 1). He is the Father of Creation.

    When considering polytheism Paul says ‘To us there is one God the Father of whom are all things, and we unto Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through Him�?(1 Corinthians 8.6). Here the Father is seen as the Source of creation and the Son as the Mediator of creation, acting together as One.

    It is noteworthy in such a context, where Paul is stressing the oneness of God as against the many gods of other religions, that he links the ‘one God�?with the ‘one Lord�? (both Old Testament titles for God) and ‘the Father�?with ‘Jesus Christ�? in creating. But the Father is seen as in some ways more distant, as the original architect to Whom we look in submission, while Jesus Christ is seen as being closer as the source of our lives. That is because it was Jesus Chist Who was sent from the Godhead to act personally among us. Yet Both act in creation, as indeed does the Spirit (Genesis 1.2).

  • 2) He is the Father over All.

    Paul says, ‘I bow my knees to the Father, from whom every fatherhood in Heaven and on earth is named�?(Ephesians 3.14-15). Here God is seen as the source and pattern of all father-relationships. The father of the clan was seen as the one authoritative figure over the wider family, and then there would be fathers over sub-groups, and so on in descending order. Thus God is the One Who is Father and Lord over all. As the Father He grants to those who are open and responsive to Him power in the inner man through His Spirit, and the indwelling of Christ, so that they may be filled with all the fulness of God (Ephesians 3.16-19). Thus the Father is made known through the indwelling of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

  • 3) He is Father over our spirits.

    When referring to the fact that God chastens His people for their benefit, Hebrews tells us ‘We had the fathers of our flesh to chasten us, and we gave them reverence, shall we not much rather be in subjection to the Father of spirits, and live?�?(Hebrews 12.9). Here God is acting as Father to our spirits, chastening our spirits in love, as against fathers of our flesh who chasten our flesh. So His fatherly care for His people results in chastening. God works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure (Philippians 2.13).

  • 4) He is the Father Who Gives All that is truly Good.

    Having spoken of facing trials and temptations and warned of the danger of riches James tells us ‘all good giving and every perfect boon is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, in whom is no variation, nor shadow cast by turning�?(James 1.17). This would appear to refer to the contrast between what mankind offers, which has strings attached and drags men down in temptation, and what God gives freely, which is totally good.

    The phrase ‘Father of lights�?signifies total openness, reliability and integrity. It refers to His creation and oversight of the heavenly lights (Genesis 1.14-16), comparing His unchanging, total reliability with the lesser reliability of the heavenly lights which cause shadows and vary with the time of day or night and the seasons. God’s gifts may then especially have in mind the gifts of sun and rain, which beget fruitfulness (compare Matthew 5.45). But the greatest gift, says James, is our being begotten spiritually by the word of truth, which is the direct result of the will of God (James 1.18) through the Spirit of God (John 3.6).

  • 5) He is the Father of Israel, His People.

    The Bible speaks of Jesus as ‘the only begotten�?(monogenes) (John 1.14, 18). But again this is human terminology. On earth if someone is begotten, the begetter precedes the begotten one timewise. This is not so with God. This is why theologians speak of Jesus as being ‘eternally begotten�? They recognise that the word ‘begotten�?has to be qualified. What this is stressing, as with the Bible use of the term ‘begotten�?of Jesus, is the essential oneness in being of Father and Son. It is saying He is the only ‘Son�?Who is, and has always been, of the same nature. But He is not really begotten in any sense in which we understand it, i.e. brought into being, for He always ‘was�?(John 1.1).

    The Bible also speaks of the Spirit as ‘proceeding from the Father�?(John 15.26). But again it is an attempt to find words to describe the indescribable, although the basic idea is clear. He comes from the Father and is of His essence.

    As we are introduced to the work of the Trinity in the Bible we regularly see the Father as the overall controller and planner, of both Creation and the plan of redemption. This is then seen as carried out by the Son in the acts of creation and redemption and the Holy Spirit in the application of it. But this is seeing it from a simplistic viewpoint. Regularly the creating and saving acts are carried out by ‘God�?or ‘YHWH�?(‘the Lord�? and in everything the Father is at work as well as the Son and the Spirit (John 5.17).

    GOD AND CHRIST AS SAVIOUR AND REDEEMER

    The Old Testament points clearly to God as the Saviour and Redeemer. Job can declare, ‘I know that my Redeemer lives, and that he will stand at last upon the earth�?(Job 19.25), and the psalmist can speak of ‘the Lord�?as ‘my rock and my Redeemer�?(Psalm 19.14). Thus he can boldly declare, ‘they remembered that God was their rock, and the Most High God their Redeemer�?(Psalm 78.35), while in Psalm 106.21 we are told of a contrary occasion when, ‘they forgot God their Saviour�?

    Isaiah reminds God’s people that ‘your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel�?(Isaiah 41.14), and God Himself declares ‘I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Saviour�?(Isaiah 43.3) or alternately, ‘your Redeemer, the Holy one of Israel�?(Isaiah 43.14 compare 47.4), so that He can add ‘beside Me there is no Saviour�?(Isaiah 43.11). Both words are combined in Isaiah 49.26, ‘I the Lord am your Saviour and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob�?(compare also 60.16).

    Jeremiah declares, ‘Oh hope of Israel, their Saviour in time of trouble�?(Jeremiah 14.8), while in 50.34 he adds, ‘their Redeemer is strong, the Lord of Hosts is His name�? while God declares through Hosea, ‘beside Me there is no Saviour�?(Hosea 13.4).

    This passes over into the New Testament where Mary can declare, ‘my spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour�?(Luke 1.47), and God is often declared to be our Saviour. Paul is ‘an apostle of Jesus Christ, by commandment of God our Saviour�?(1 Timothy 1.1) and he can speak of what is ‘good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour�?( 1 Timothy 2.3). Indeed ‘the living God is the Saviour of all men, especially of those who believe�?(1 Timothy 4.10). Again, the word is ‘committed to me (Paul) according to the commandment of God our Saviour�?(Titus 1.3). So that we are told to ‘adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things�?(Titus 2.10), for ‘when the kindness and love of God our Saviour towards man appeared --- He saved us�?(Titus 3.4-5). So Jude addresses his paean of praise to ‘the only God, our Saviour�?(Jude 1.25).

    This all makes it very significant, then, that Jesus Christ is regularly called our Saviour, and even ‘our God and Saviour�? The angels tell us, ‘unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour who is Christ the Lord�?(Luke 2.11), and the woman of Samaria declares Him to be ‘Christ, the Saviour of the world�?(John 4.42). Indeed ‘Him has God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour�?(Acts 5.31). He has ‘brought unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus�?(Acts 13.23). So Christ is ‘the head of the church, and He is the Saviour of the body�?(Ephesians 5.23). Thus we ‘wait for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ�?(Philippians 3.20). For God’s purpose in Christ is revealed by ‘the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ�?(2 Timothy 1.10) and Paul can speak of ‘God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour�?(Titus 1.4), so that we are looking for ‘the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ�?(Titus 2.13).

    It is to Him that we owe the blessing of ‘the renewing of the Holy Spirit which He poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour�?(Titus 3.5-6). For ‘the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world�?(1 John 4.14). So Peter can speak of those who have ‘obtained like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1.1), and of those who have had ministered to them an abundant entrance into ‘the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ�?(2 Peter 1.11) (note that the Greek construction in 1.1 and 1.11 is the same so that if ‘Lord�?refers to Jesus so must ‘God�?.

    So Peter tells us to remember the commandment of ‘the Lord and Saviour�?(2 Peter 3.2) and that we are to ‘grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ�?(2 Peter 3.18). To Peter Jesus is both ‘Lord and Saviour�?and ‘God and Saviour�? And in Acts 20.28 Paul can speak of ‘the church of God which He (God) purchased with His own blood�?in a context where the whole stress is on God.

    Thus the ‘God and Saviour�?of the Old Testament has become the ‘God and Saviour�?of the New Testament as revealed in Jesus Christ, Who is Himself ‘God and Saviour�?

    As the writer to the Hebrews tells us. “He (Jesus Christ) is the outshining of His (God’s) glory and the exact representation of His substance�?(Hebrews 1.3). So that “all the angels of God worship Him�?(Hebrews 1.6). This is why he can speak of Jesus Christ as God on the throne (Hebrews 1.8).

    GOD THE SON.

    Just as Jesus speaks of ‘the Father�?so He speaks of Himself as ‘the Son�? He is not ‘a son of God�? or one of a number of sons, He is THE Son. This comes out many times, especially, but not exclusively in the Gospel of John (Matthew 11.27; Mark 13.26; Luke 10.22; John 3.36; John 5.19-26; 6.40; 8.35-36; 14.13; Hebrews 1.8; 1 John 2.22-24; 4.14; 5.12). A reading of these verses brings out the divine prerogatives He claimed. He is the giver of life by His own will, He has life in Himself, He will raise men at the last day, He will be the judge of all so that He might have equal honour with the Father, He alone knows and reveals the Father. The one who has seen Him has seen the Father (14.9).

    Thus Jesus always distinguishes His relationship to the Father from that of all others. He speaks of ‘My Father�?and ‘your Father�?but never of ‘our Father�? He sees His relationship with the Father as unique.

    Kings of the house of David were seen as ‘begotten�?by God when they ascended the throne and were ‘adopted�?by Him (Psalm 2.7 with 2 Samuel 7.14, Psalm 89.26-27). But Jesus is the monogenes, the ‘only�?begotten. So His Sonship is distinctive. Thus while the term ‘son of God�?could be applied to kings of the house of David, and possibly to the coming Messiah (certainly in the same way as it was applied to David), and Jesus claimed this application for Himself as He awaited their full illumination (Matthew 16.16), the use of the term Son of God went further with Jesus for it was given divine qualities (Matthew 8.29; 21.37; Mark 12.6; Luke 20.13; John 3.18; 5.25; Romans 1.4; 8.32; Galatians 2.20; Ephesians 4.13; Hebrews 4.14; 10.29; 1 John 3.8; 4.15; 5.5, 10, 12, 13, 20; Revelation 2.18). Others were adopted as sons of God, but He was the Son uniquely sent by the Father Who pre-existed with Him (John 1.14, 18; 3.13,16; 3.31; 6.38, 46; 8.42; Galatians 4.4; Hebrews 1.6; 1 John 4.9).

    Even more significantly Jesus claims authority over the Spirit. In John 15.26; 16.6; Luke 24.49 Jesus promises that He will send the Spirit to His disciples from Heaven, and in John 14.16-23 He tells them that the Spirit will mediate to them the presence of the Father and the Son. The former claim demonstrates His control over the Spirit of God, and as the Spirit was seen as the extension of the activity of God Himself, it is a distinct claim to divine sovereignty. Who else could send and control His Spirit? In the latter case His paralleling of Himself with the Father in their effect on human experience is a firm statement of His equality with the Father.

    Elsewhere Jesus Christ is clearly shown to be God. Not only is He referred to as ‘our God and Saviour�?(see above) but He is described as having the Name above every Name (Philippians 2.9), which is the name YHWH. That is why all will declare that Jesus is ‘LORD�?(Philippians 2.11) for the word for ‘Lord�?(kurios) is used in the Greek Old Testament to translate YHWH. That this is the significance here can be seen by comparison with Isaiah 45.21-23 where it is YHWH to Whom every knee shall bow. Thus Paul is equating Jesus with this high statement of faith. And all this in the passage where Paul has spoken of His self emptying and willingness not to grasp on to His Godhood (Philippians 2.6) in words which were clearly an early church statement of faith..

    John also can call Him ‘the Word Who was made flesh and dwelt among us�?(John 1.14), having earlier pointed out that the Word existed in the beginning and created all things (John 1.1-3) and was the giver of life (1.4). Indeed that He was of the nature of God (John 1.1). In the Book of Revelation Jesus constantly has applied to Him divine titles and ideas (e.g. 1.17-18; 22.13), and Jesus unquestionably applied to Himself the divine title ‘I am�?(ego eimi) (John 8.58-59 compare vv. 24, 28) as is demonstrated by the response of His hearers.

    In response to the multiplicity of gods worshipped by others, the Jews proudly declared ‘the Lord our God, the Lord is One�? That Paul can therefore make the response in a similar context that ‘to us there is one God, the Father, of Whom are all things and we unto Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ through Whom are all things and we though Him�?(1 Corinthians 8.6) again demonstrates that he sees Jesus Christ as equal with the Father and an essential part of the oneness of God. This is further demonstrated by the fact that he conjoins Jesus Christ with the Father as a dispenser of the divine grace (Romans 1.7; 1 Corinthians 1.3 and often) and that Jesus is to be seen as the object of worship and prayer by the early church (Matthew 28.17; John 20.28; Acts 7.59; 1 Corinthians 16.22b (‘maranatha�?- ‘our Lord come!�?; Revelation 5.11-14; 22.1-5, 17, 20).

    GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT

    That the Holy Spirit is God is clear from the continuous use of the name to describe the activity of God. When the Spirit acts, God acts. The question in this case is as to whether we are to see any distinction, except in emphasis, between God the Father and the Holy Spirit. In the Old Testament we find reference mainly to ‘the Spirit of the Lord�?or ‘the Spirit of God�? Reference to ‘the Holy Spirit�?is comparatively rare (Psalm 51.11; Isaiah 63.10-11). However in the New Testament reference is almost exclusively (but not totally) to the Holy Spirit. The distinction is not, however, important as all phrases indicate the uniqueness of the Spirit as God’s Spirit.

    That God is Spirit Jesus expressly declared (John 4.24). But the Holy Spirit is seen as active in conjunction with the God Who is Spirit. He ‘proceeds�?from the Father (John 15.26) and is sent by the Father in Jesus�?name (John 14.26). He is the ‘Spirit of God�?(Romans 8.9, 14; 15.19; 1 Corinthians 2.11, 14; 3.16; 7.40; 12.3; 1 John 4.2). But He is also ‘the Spirit of the Lord�?(2 Corinthians 3.17; Acts 5.9; 8.39), ‘the Spirit of Christ�?(Romans 8.9; 1 Peter 1.11) and ‘the Spirit of His Son�?(Galatians 4.6). Indeed He is sent by the Son (John 16.7). This is why the church has spoken of Him as ‘proceeding from the Father and the Son�? This sending by the Son demonstrates that the Spirit is not to be seen as just an extension of God the Father.

    In 1 Corinthians 2.10-12 we learn that the Spirit ‘knows�?the things of God and ‘searches the deep things of God�? It is by Him that God reveals them to men. Thus we ‘receive the Spirit which is of God, that we may know the things which are freely given to us by God�? The Spirit’s Oneness with God is clearly understood, and yet there is separation in unity.

    That He is personal comes out in His activity. He searches (1 Corinthians 2.10), speaks (Acts 13.2), teaches (John 14.26; Luke 12.12; 1 Corinthians 2.13), brings to mind (John 14.26), bears witness (John 15.26; Romans 8.16), leads (Romans 8.14; Galatians 5.18), knows (1 Corinthians 2.11), convinces of sin (John 16.8), commands (Acts 8.29), reveals, creates (Genesis 1.2), makes intercession (Romans 8.27), raises the dead (Romans 8.11).

    He is clearly distinguished from the Father and the Son in Matthew 28.19; 2 Corinthians 13.13; 1 Peter 1.1-2; Jude 1.20-21 where the Trinity as a whole is revealed in action. As the Father is distinct from the Son, so He is from the Spirit and yet they always work as One.

    SUMMARY.

    To those who seek to have everything cut and dried the doctrine of God is an enigma. This is necessarily so for we are considering One Who is beyond our understanding and outside our experience except in so far as we can experience Him through His word and through prayer and worship.

    Thus it is being too simplistic to speak of the Trinity as representing one God in three persons, for the word ‘person�?tends to mean to us individuals and within God there are not three individuals. Rather we should say that within God is a threeness revealed in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, a threeness which includes interpersonal relationships, and yet which excludes individual and contrary activity. God always acts as one, and yet within that activity one member of the Godhead may appear more prominent. But in a real sense any action is always the action of all. Further thoughts on the Trinity.

    The problem we have is finding words to describe what God is like. The only words we have are based on our experience of the world and of ourselves. But God is not remotely like the world. Descriptions we use do not fit God.

    When we try to describe to a man blind from birth what the colour red, or blue, or green is like we cannot do it. Try it!. Without a concept of colour he cannot possibly understand what we mean, try as we will. All the explanations in the world will not enable him to understand colour. We will try this and that and he will then suggest what we mean and we will cringe. He just has not grasped it. And he never will. It can only be known by those who have sight.

    Of course if we are very clever we may teach him words that almost describe it and he will then be able to describe it so that we think he knows what it means. But he does not. He is only using words which we understand in one way and he understands in another.

    When the translators tried to put the Bible in basic English it resulted, nobly though they tried, in a translation which was part good, part bad and sometimes laughable. Trying to put theology in basic English is well nigh impossible. It works for a time and then we have to start using specialist words.

    Compared to God all the languages of the world are basic. They contain no words that can describe Him. What is eternity? We can say what it is not. It is not time. It is not limited. But we cannot say what it is. We have no experience of eternity except in our inner beings.

    The only reason that we can have a little understanding about God and eternity is because we have spirit, the image of God within. But we do not understand it. We reach out in experience that we cannot define.

    Imagine talking to Isaac Newton about protons, neutrons, electrons and quarks, about curved space and black holes. He would think you were either mad or just being funny. He knew far too much about science to believe such things. He would think you deluded. You might well be locked up. When I was a boy I knew that the atom was the smallest known thing. Today compared with the quark it is a giant world containing a multitude of other worlds. (When I told my 15 year old physicist son about quarks he thought I was pulling his leg. Now he is a nuclear scientist (medical) he loses me and has to explain things gently). But even he does not know what a quark is. Only what it does.

    In the same way when God is trying to reveal Himself to us in the Bible He has to use human language. But how with human language can He reveal heavenly things? He cannot. How can He show that within the Godhead are two Who are yet equal and of the same nature? Answer, use a number of pictures.

    Use the relationship of father and son for one. Such a relationship did not exist before the world was made. No angel prior to creation would have known what a father and son were. But all men know that a trueborn son is of the same nature as his father because they live in a world of fathers and sons. Thus if Jesus is the 'only born' Son they know that He is of the same nature as the Father.

    But on earth a son is born after the father has come into existence. So we have to drop that bit. The picture in itself is not complete. It is one part of the jigsaw. Thus we have to add another piece to the picture in order to reveal that He always existed. 'In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was in a two way personal relationship with God (pros ton theon), and the Word was of the nature of God. (theos en ho logos).' A wordless God is not possible. God could never be without His word therefore His Word always 'was'.

    He exercised it at creation, but it had always existed. So Jesus is called the Word. He is eternal and so much a part of God that God would not be God without Him. The word is God revealed in action. By the word of the Lord the heavens were made.

    But Jesus is not just a word. He is personal. So He is the Word/Son. That is why the idea of 'eternally begotten' is simply saying that Jesus is eternal and that He is of the true nature of God.

    Is a father superior in rank to his son? Ask Napoleon's father. Each son in turn becomes a father, and some sons far outrank their father's, for rank is an earthly concept. But these are earthly rankings based on the birth of one preceding the other, or on one rising above the other in importance. But the Father did not precede the Son. Both always were. In such a relationship neither is superior in rank. The titles are simply used to explain their relationship to poor failing, ‘lacking in heavenly knowledge�? men.

    Had God not created the world and had not Jesus become a man, Jesus would never have been called ‘the Son�? neither would He have been called Jesus. It is a human term with meaning for human beings. (All such words are human. It may be that there us auch a thing as heavenly language but if so you can be sure that most of the words they use would be gobbledygook to us, for they sepak of things both outside our experience and beyond what we can experience. But in that ‘other�?world possibly mind speaks to mind without words).

    Of course when Jesus became man He subordinated Himself to the Father by choice. He chose to become a servant. Thus He could say while He walked on earth, 'My Father is greater than I' while at the same time saying 'I and the Father are One'. He could say that He had the power to give life in itself. That He was honoured equally with the Father. That all judgment had been committed to Him.

    He possessed all the prerogatives of God, and is regularly described in language used only of God. Indeed in the New Testament He is given the title 'LORD', the name above every name. That is how the Septuagint speaks of God. It is the name of Yahweh, the only God.

    Compare how Jesus is called the heir of all things. Take it literally and it is absurd. For someone to be an heir someone else has to die or retire. Will God die or retire? Of course not. The title simply signifies that all that belongs to the Father belongs to Jesus. We must drop the bits that don't fit and concentrate on what the picture is trying to say.

    But will not the Son one day subject all things to the Father, and Himself subject Himself to the Father? (1 Corinthians 15.24-28). Yes, He will, as the One Who became man and operates on behalf of the whole of manhood. But then it is ‘God�?Who will be all in all, not just the Father. The Son’s emptying of Himself will be over.

    The Spirit is revealed as active at creation. Throughout the Old Testament it is clear that the Spirit is God seen in action. But how are we to describe the relationship of the Spirit to the Father? That perplexed the theologians. So they searched the Scriptures and found that Jesus said the Spirit would proceed from the Father. That gave them a lifeline. It means of course that in some way the Father and the Spirit are of one nature, for One proceeds from the other. If fire proceeds from fire we know they are of the same nature. But is fire inferior to fire ecause it proceeds from fire. The second may become a raging inferno and be far 'superior' to the match, but not really because they are both fire. Both are equally capable of setting the world alight. But the question is, how can the One Who is God in action in the world be inferior to God? And the answer is, He cannot be.

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 Message 2 of 7 in Discussion 
From: FemiSent: 6/29/2008 7:10 AM
The concept of how God is One is misunderstood by Trinitarians.

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From: MSN Nickname_MrWonder_Sent: 8/8/2008 12:33 PM
Yes, she left and restarted her old group.

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