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| | From:  sallisbury (Original Message) | Sent: 10/12/2008 9:29 AM |
Hello, there are some new photos and an annoucements page with dogs/puppies available and upcoming litters (with some pictures and info on the parents). check it out. let me know what you think. Thanks, James |
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Hello Thai Blazell,
i checked out the thread:
( http://groups.msn.com/CreativeThaiDogClubBangkok/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=1661&LastModified=4675625551957787475 )
and i absolutely agree! bad hips/HD should be of greater concern than DS.
there is lots of good info and interesting topics in the forums - what will happen to it all when the forums close ?
Thanks, James ... www.ManapeThaiRidgeback.com |
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ref 75 genetics are alwasy complex, and even more so when trying to follw it as far as an explanation is concerend.. that said, Im not sure exactly what you are trying to say james. If the parents, even though fawena and blue, were the result opf cross color breeidngs in past lineage, they could easily pass on genes of other coat colors that could match up. unless the only other explanation could be that the fawn was not a tru fawn, but a light red, and the blue wold have red or black lineage,this can make the pups results in red and blacks.. thats woud be my understanding, but i am open to further explanation from you. |
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Hello Sallisbury and you others.
I had problems to log in today.
I am not sure what will happen when MSN close down.
Probably we will loose our TRD " library" and thousands of creative hours when making posts and answering to them.... :-(
I know some of us have spent lots of time to answer. Serge and I can be used as an example.....We have tried to make posts in an foreign language....
(lol. I use spell check today. But never did this the first years.
Do not matter. Because my sentence are done the Swedish way :-))))
Same time our understanding of the English language became better and better...so It was worth it. But it is really hard to recall all old posts and the understanding of the breed.
Lots of knowledge will disappear. I have asked my kids how to save this knowledge for the future, but all they said was;
---Copy the treads one by one!!!!!
Arrgh!!!!!!!
If you have any ideas please tell...
Tina
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Hello JamesTRD,
I am probably the worst person to try and explain genetics. I can talk in circles for days and get nowhere. Biology (marine) was my focus in college so applying that same knowledge to dog coat color genetics the basics make sense to me. Of course that doesnt mean I am any good at trying to explain it. In regard to the blue color in Thai Ridgebacks and most other "blue" dogs it never matters how many generations they have been blue or what color their parents are: blues are "pure" for blue. blue is recessive and always requires 2 copies (d+d=blue, D+d is never blue). if a dog had a D instead of a d it could not be blue. that is why we have red and black dogs that can unknowingly be carriers of d(they are Dd) but never a blue dog carrying D (blues always have to be dd).
so now I am going to repeat myself and maybe it probably wont make sense this way either!? :
all alleles come in pairs - a parent animal can only pass on 1 ( dna helix splits ). offspring get 1 allele from each parent to make their own pairs. the blue allele ( d ) in dogs is recessive so in order to be represented in the phenotype (what we see) there has to be 2 d alleles present. a pup needs to get 1 from each parent otherwise it will not be blue ( note anytime i say blue im talking about blue or blue fawn - aka issabella ). all blue Thai Ridgebacks are homozygous(pure) for the blue color - it makes no difference how many generations or what colors are present in their background or even what color the parents were. for example if you got a blue out of a red and black pair that pup would still be "pure" for blue ( homozygous-dd- 2 copies of the same allele, not hetero-2 different alleles which would be Dd-in this case the dog could not be blue since we must have 2 copies of d, remember?) when breeding 2 blues we can only get blue because each of the parents can only give a d to their offspring. dont forget issabella is blue fawn.
has anyone ever had or know of a blue pairing that has produced a color other than blue or blue fawn?
so all ive done is prove that i give bad explanations... but if anyone is interested just do a google search for canine coat color genetics. there are many sites with all the information. dont forget it doesnt need to be Thai Ridgeback specific, in fact i dont think there is any coat color genetics information just for Thai Ridgebacks( that color breeding chart does not count- it's not based on any genetic principles). canine coat color genetics applies to all dogs- though not all color variations apply to all the dog breeds (we dont have any merles or dudley nose dogs, etc. in the Thai Ridgeback ).
James ... www.ManapeThaiRidgeback.com |
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i understand what you are saying as well have a certaion grasp on whay should be in genetics, but what the real question is, are the dogs truly blue or isableea? The dog can be a dilution of black and the fawn can actually be red .. but what you state does make snese..pictures of the dogs are needed to determine if the dog is truly silver blue or is it dark blue/black. |
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Hello and thank you for your explanation.
The genetics from Shar Pei can be used, as they got both blue, fawn, isabella etc. Even about coat. Just in my opinion.
What I meant with "such a joke", is that I have heard breeders bragging about "true blue " lines in 5 generations.
A true blue line should not give "red" offsprings" (?)
(in my opinion, talking about true blue lines should be only blue ancestors, in this example in 5 generations..).
Then I have found an red sister or red fathers sister of the stud. I do not feel its correct, but maybe you can call it blue from red+blue lines etc. But not "true blue" ascendant..
(blue of category 2 , see the link).
http://groups.msn.com/thai-ridgeback-thailand/colorbreedinginthetrd.msnw
I just meantioned it as an expample, (because i feel it can make many people surprised when they see the result of their own litters).
I can not use colour breeding yet, as there are too few dogs, and no real colour breeding here. Unless red TRDs.
Well I think Ekasit in Thailand got 4-5 generations blue. But not many others..
Tina |
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the gene/allele that makes a dog blue dilutes the black and red (which is genetically considered a regular fawn - which can be from deep mahagony to a light creamy fawn) pigment of a dog. if the dog is black it will be diluted to blue. if the dog is red both the visible red and black pigment is diluted and we get what is often called issabella (I call it blue fawn). what color is the mask on an issabella dog? it is always blue! have you ever seen a red dog with a blue mask? no because red dogs have black mask and yes because issabellas are diluted reds and have blue mask.
silver blue, dark blue, issabella/blue fawn are all a result of the dd (dilute) genotype. anytime you breed any of these colors WITH ONE ANOTHER YOU CAN ONLY GET any of these variations of BLUE. If you breed them to a non dilute such as black or red you can expect colors other than blue.
some of the color genetics for the Sharpei can be used - but that color breeding chart is not based on genetics. also there are accepted colors in the sharpei(chocolate or anything with a nose other than black or blue) that are not standard colors in the Thai Ridgeback.
the key point is blue x blue ( blue x issabella , silver blue x blue or issabella, or any combination of any of these dilutes) can only give you blue/issabella/silver blue offspring.
and so i ask the question again:
has anyone ever had or know of a blue x blue pairing that has produced a color other than blue, silver blue or issabella(blue fawn)?
i just thought of a fun way to remember this bit of canine coat color genetics: blue x blue always breeds true!
James ... www.ManapeThaiRidgeback.com |
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James, your responses are quite intelligent and appreciated, though confusing. They prompted me to research more on coat color breeding, and ,well, im still confused lol. I used the Shar pei color inheritance for my research. After finsihing,I thought i may conclude that the breeding mentioned was possible, due all the variables and caryring of genes. However, ,y research was finally ended,when i found ouot that the kennel in question, does in fact have a red stud. so end result... Case closed LOL |
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LOL
Guys....Back to basics.
I planned to post a long one today. but it disappeared in the air..
Well. I want to know your opinion about DS. Especially the Thailand opinion, thanks..
1.Put a dog to sleep because of DS? YES or NO
Are there any swear cases of DS, ex when the dog has to be put too sleep because of the DS affect the brain or the mentality/ or it will cause aggressions, or makes the dog loose balance...
Have you ever heard of mentally illness because of DS?
As you in Thailand tries to save
all dogs because of religion and other reasons...
I hope you know the answer. As many people
here in westerner countries think the only solution
is to put to sleep . the sooner the better.
I guess some even want to blame DS, for everything...
...as the insurance cover it.
Just me, Tina from the Nordic Tundra. :-)
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my opinion: many people outside of Thailand that are interested in the breed may be overly concerned with DS.
NO WAY would i recommend putting a dog/pup to sleep because it has a DS. IF a dog had an infected DS that for some reason could not be remedied i would then consider putting him down.
there are a lot of Thai Ridgebacks in Thailand, and a lot of the ones i have seen have DS. AND the majority of them are living normal healthy lives, many of them in old age(with DS!). I have heard the horror stories but have yet to see first hand any infected DS.
through my experience here in Thailand i have learned that there are many different types of DS. some are very obvious and even visible by sight (though not infected). others can only be detected through palpation. some have the typical tube from the spine to the skin, others have what seem to be incomplete tubes that do not reach the skin - these especially are often identifiable on pups but not on the adults.
i dont know of and had never heard of mental illness by way of DS ... but seeing how some DS seem to be rooted/attached in/to the spine i immagine it is possible.
please do not put any of your pups/dogs down if you discover they have DS. if youre worried about it have the DS removed. i would recommend just leaving it alone, keeping your pup/dog in good health and keep an eye on it. I would bet that the DS would not get infected thus never causing any health problem. having said that i will also say the safer bet may be to remove the DS and eliminate any chance of it becoming infected - of course if not completely/properly removed the surgery itself could cause it to become infected.
James ... www.ManapeThaiRidgeback.com
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A page about dilute genes making the blue and fawn. Very simple to read and with pictures. Helene |
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Thanks Basenji Zeke. good link! it explains blue - dd quite nicely. but i think the information on issabella and dilute + liver(bb) will cause even more confusion. The Thai Ridgeback does not ( at least a standard color Thai Ridgeback should not) have the b gene. there are no liver colored dogs in standard color Thai Ridgeback, no brown noses. so this is a good example of where a common name, issabella, is being used to describe 2 different colors. all so called "issabellas" ( what i call blue fawn ) in the Thai Ridgeback have blue noses. so if a weimaraner is the true color of an issabella(rrdd) the name is being used improperly for the Thai Ridgeback. Thai Ridgeback should always be BB and blue fawn ("issabella") would be BBdd.
Thanks, James ... www.ManapeThaiRidgeback.com |
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James genetically all dogs are either black or liver..its the dilutions and expressions of genes that detemtrine the actuial coat color.. but when genetecist refer to genes,every dog will either have a black or liver assignement. we had a long discussion on this sometime ago..I cant remeber the thread, but it is in the archives somewhere.. a standard color can have the b gene, but the color will not be expressed.such as Bb etc. |
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Hi Jamestrd, I understand what you mean to say by all dogs are either black or "liver", but here we have another common name (liver) being used in the wrong context. what you are saying by "genetically all dogs are either black or liver" would most often be referred to in genetic terms as black/eumelanin or red-yellow-fawn/phaeomelanin. red/phaeomelanin being what you are calling liver? so you are correct... but liver is not the correct term.
in the link submitted by Basenji Zeke and most other canine coat color genetics articles "liver" is described as being bb genotype which changes all the BLACK/eumelanin pigment to brown (aka LIVER!). thus we always have the brown noses on all "liver" colored dogs but not on red or black dogs with BB (or Bb as you mentioned) genotype who always have a black nose(unless they are blue fawns[BBdd, Bbdd genotype] then they have blue noses). you are also correct that a standard colored Thai Ridgeback COULD be carrying the b gene(Bb), but we would then expect to see them regularly with b being a simple recessive just the same as d(blue). we see lots of blue and blue fawn Thai Ridgebacks but never any liver colored(brown nosed) Thai Ridgebacks. if the Bb genotype was at all common in the breed we would surely see just as many liver/brown nosed dogs as we do blue/blue fawn colored dogs. so i think its safe to say the vast majority of standard color Thai Ridgebacks dont carry the b(they are not Bb genotype), and are always BB/with black or blue noses. Rhodesian Ridgebacks on the other hand very often come in liver/with brown noses and it is an accepted color in that breed.
Anybody have or ever seen a Thai Ridgeback with a liver/brown colored nose? I have seen some Thai dogs with brown noses and some of them with ridges! but then i dont consider them to be Thai Ridgebacks or standard colored. so if anyone is confused do your research. start with that link/article from Basenji Zeke and compare it to at least 10 others. |
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I´ve seen a TRD with a brown nose. It looks brown, but maybe it´s a butterfly (but then on the other hand it should be more pinkish).
She has light brown nails as well.
Kind regards/Susanne Roberton |
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